What if: 3.5 Epic rules + PF Mythic rules - Epic Spellcasting feat?

[T.G. Oskar]

Exactly as you hear it.

Assume a 3.PF game where classes predominantly incline towards Pathfinder (i.e. PF Barbarian, PF Cleric, etc., but 3.5/PF hybrid Bard), feats incline towards 3.5 (3.5 Power Attack, 3.5 Imp. Trip, but PF skill-related feats like Alertness), spells and magic items are a hybrid of both. As soon as the players reach 20th level, they have to face an extraordinary effect that unlocks their Mythic potential, as per the PF rules, getting a Mythic Tier of 1. From then onwards, the players advance as per 3.5's Epic level rules (fixed BAB/saves, classes beyond 20th level advance mathematically progressing class features and gain free Epic bonus feats), but if they achieve extraordinary events beyond what already can be done in Epic, they also advance their Mythic Progression by 1 tier. They also gain access to Epic magic items, potentially bundled with Mythic effects. As well, Epic prestige classes are open.

The ONLY restriction is that the Epic Spellcasting feat simply doesn't exist. Certain other things could definitely be banned (Sarrukh, the Sacred Geometry feat chain), but Epic Spellcasting IS banned, no exceptions.

Besides jumping to the obvious conclusion (casters rule, martials drool), how would that kind of game feel? Just for the sake of boundaries, assume Epic levels have a soft cap of 40; once you reach that, you can still achieve Mythic tiers if you haven't reached 10 already, but you can't advance until a further effect (which will most likely be apotheosis). Thus, you'd still have to think on a build. As well, assume that 3.5's Epic monsters may (no, WILL) have Mythic versions.

And, as a bonus question: what if the soft cap was removed and the players got a Divine Rank of 0, with the ability to reach another soft cap of level 60 (but no advancement on Divine Ranks)? Or, full advancement of Divine Ranks and no level cap?

[Milo v3]

Sounds like PF's epic level guidelines to me, though with some better feats and prestige classes.

[Alleran]

PF Mythic rules, as much as I like them, are broken past about the third or fourth tier anyway. Adding Epic on top of it, even without things like Epic Spellcasting, is going to severely damage the mechanics.

[nothingforyou]

One thing I've been considering:

1) 3.5e Epic Rules + PF Mythic Rules
2) Epic Spellcasting allows you to use one epic seed, you may take the feat more times for additional seeds
3) No ad hoc modifiers to epic spells
4) You may not mitigate epic spells to below 1/2 the original DC

[AvatarVecna]

High-level, non-epic mages can already do whatever they want; epic levels, mythic tiers, and Epic Spellcasting just remove the last remaining facade of impossibility. Combining epic rules with mythic rules is basically taking away all limits for magical characters, and even focused mundane characters will be pretty effective.

[T.G. Oskar]

PF Mythic rules, as much as I like them, are broken past about the third or fourth tier anyway. Adding Epic on top of it, even without things like Epic Spellcasting, is going to severely damage the mechanics.

Partly a reason why I wanted to consider the results of the blend of both. I've only watched Mythic rules on the SRD, and I don't get the same feel of brokenness. The abilities granted by Mythic tiers don't seem that amazing at first place, save for bonafide +6 weapons. The divide between mages and martials doesn't seem to widen or shrink in either case. Maybe it's because Mythic monsters aren't as much of a challenge?

The idea is that there's very few Epic monsters, but several Mythic monsters. Ideally, 21st - 25th level characters with at least 1 Mythic tier would be capable of facing non-Mythic Epic creatures or non-Epic Mythic creatures of the same CR, and later on the only challenge is to go for Mythic + Epic creatures, such as Mythic Great Wyrm Force Dragons or Mythic Phanes.


High-level, non-epic mages can already do whatever they want; epic levels, mythic tiers, and Epic Spellcasting just remove the last remaining facade of impossibility. Combining epic rules with mythic rules is basically taking away all limits for magical characters, and even focused mundane characters will be pretty effective.

See, that's the kind of thing I want to see: mundane characters (i.e. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk) aren't as effective, even if focused, as spellcasters even on Epic levels. When you have a feat like Epic Weapon Focus having MORE requirements than Epic Spellcasting, there's a Colossal problem. Mythic seems to play hard and fast with granting supernatural and high-powered abilities to anyone who takes them, but most importantly, it grants characters new toys, something that Epic severely lacks.

The spellcaster thing is true: they already do things before approaching Epic levels (making Epic challenges for them pointless), while martial characters (mundane or otherwise) struggle to keep up, and skill-monkeys somewhere in the middle (struggling to keep up, unless they superfocus on one skill in which case they could do awesome stuff before Epic). I wasn't believing that Mythic tiers would provide a semblance of balance, but at least see if the added toys and tools for mundanes (which would stop being mundane at that moment) would fare better than Epic WF-esque feats.

Indeed, the game would break numerically with certain non-full spellcaster classes. Paladins, for example, using the PF's mark rather than the 3.5's smite would deal extraordinary amounts of damage and use said ability more times per day, probably gain more Mercies, their LoH and Channel Positive Energy would heal for more (+1d6 every two levels is a mathematical progression) while having more uses, their CL would approach working levels, and they'd gain access to feats like Holy Strike, Improved Aura of Courage (either as-is or boosted), Positive Energy Aura (if they have the Turn Undead feat), and so on. Mythic Tiers would allow them to advance their earlier feats, gain access to better spells and whatnot. In that regard, they'd get a massive boost.

Going for other classes: the Barbarian would get even more Rage powers and their duration of Rage could easily approach the point where they can Rage at all moments. The Fighter would probably stack Bravery, though not Weapon/Armor Mastery (since their progression is not exactly mathematical, particularly Armor Mastery which stops at 15th level and gains no 19th level progression, making their gain less attractive (on the other hand, they keep gaining bonus feats). Monks would get more uses of Ki, while Rogues would get more Advanced Rogue Talents. Adding Mythic Tiers would boost them in terms of power and versatility, but never at the level of a Paladin (or Magus, or Inquisitor).

Certainly, spellcasters would also benefit, which is where you can see the problem. Originally, Sorcerers and Wizards didn't get anything other than a boost to CL and free bonus feats; now, Sorcerers would eventually complete their Bloodline to their fullest while Wizards' arcane school powers based on rounds or class levels would gain yet another boost. They are already game-breaking by 20th level (moreso with 3.5 spells coupled with PF spells, making for outstanding synergies), but they didn't progress that much compared with this hypothetical mixture.

Any class with multiple abilities based on mathematical progressions gains more benefit from Epic levels, barring Epic Spellcasting, but up to a point (namely, numerical progressions improve the target's numbers, but not their versatility). Mythic Tiers grant everyone a degree of versatility over power, though some gain more power and a slight boost to their already large versatility. That's how I perceive it, and I'd like to see if it seems like a good observation or if I'm missing key points, beyond "spellcasters are broken before 20th level" or "the game breaks down at Epic levels", the latter being the reason for the soft cap boundary.

[Zanos]

PF Mythic rules, as much as I like them, are broken past about the third or fourth tier anyway. Adding Epic on top of it, even without things like Epic Spellcasting, is going to severely damage the mechanics.
Genuinely curious as to how mythic breaks. I'm guessing it's the additional standard action?