What skills do you give your wizard?

[RoboEmperor]

Wizards have an ungodly amount of skill points, but not many class skills so where do YOU spend your wizard's skill points on?

I know everyone puts points in concentration, knowledge arcana (for epic spells) and spellcraft (for epic spells), but what about the rest?

Other than prerequisites for prestige class, I don't know what to spend the skill points on. Diplomacy? But it's not a class skill, but you could moment of prescience it so might be good. Craft skills? Moment of prescience beats it. Hide and move silently? It's only 1/2 advancement and it either has to be sky high or worthless right?

I generally get knowledge planes for planar binding, but what else?

[aleucard]

Jacking up all the relevant knowledges and getting Knowledge Devotion and friends is actually a flavorful choice for most types of Wizard as well as strong.

Crafting's also a decent choice, particularly when you either just don't want to fool with bartering for gear, can't because your out in the wilderness or something, or want something custom. Artificers do it better, sure, but wizards are a close second in arcane items.

Other than that, it depends heavily on what kind and build of character you're going for. For instance, if you're starting after level 1 and want a stealth/skillmonkey Wizard, a first-level dip into Factotum and Able Learner gives you carte blanche to do whatever the Hell you want with your skill points.

Keep in mind that there's some skills that are worth spending cross-class ranks for. Usually this is restricted to Spot and Listen, but still.

EDIT: If you want my personal breakdown on the best skills for Knowledge Devotion, here's a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17959114&postcount=9)

[eggynack]

Knowledges. Knowledge is power, especially on a wizard, and there's obviously intelligence to support it. The monster identification knowledges are especially important, which means that, after the three aforementioned skills, assuming something like seven skill points, you get to take four out of dungeoneering, local, nature, religion, the planes, and psionics. The planes is always critical, because of minionmancy spells of various kinds, and psionics is a lot more narrow than the others, so you're left with three out of dungeoneering, local, nature, and religion. Any of the four is probably a reasonable enough choice to drop, though offhand, I'd probably drop dungeoneering, unless you have some specific polymorph themed reason for keeping it around.

[Chronos]

As a general rule for any class, for any skill on your class skill list that's trained-only, you want at least one point in it. That one point makes the difference between "I hope I roll well" and "Nope". This is doubly true for any skill that's based on your primary ability score. So, every wizard should always have at least one point in every Knowledge skill. If you have more points available, then you can always max out a few of them. Coordinate this with your party: A cleric or paladin is likely to take Knowledge: Religion, and a ranger or druid is likely to take Nature, for instance, and there's not as much benefit to having multiple people with the skill maxed out (though the one trained-only point is still useful, if nothing else so you can Aid Another the specialist).

[mabriss lethe]

In almost all situations, you're definitely going to want to max Concentration. It's AC for your spellcasting. A good Spellcraft score is also very useful. Being able to know what spells other casters are slinging around is invaluable. If you plan on using/abusing spells like Fabricate, you'll want at least a few points in relevant crafting skills. Scatter the rest throughout the individual knowledge skills, and you'll be good to go. The right wizard spell can cover anything else you need to do.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, concentration and spellcraft because wizard, all others based on PrC requirements. If anything's leftover at that point I'll probably throw a few points into any remaining knowledges or maybe a craft skill. Know arcane is nice but I don't do epic. Spellcraft, however, is necessary for expanding your spellbook and is an absolute "must have."

[RoboEmperor]

I was under the impression craft skills aren't gotten because of moment of prescience, unless you want to craft said stuff before level 15.

Alright thanks for the information. I'm a get 1 in every knowledge, and some craft skills.

[aleucard]

I was under the impression craft skills aren't gotten because of moment of prescience, unless you want to craft said stuff before level 15.

Alright thanks for the information. I'm a get 1 in every knowledge, and some craft skills.

It's a safe bet that the majority of campaigns don't get access to level 8 spells, and there's a certain benefit that comes with being able to do something even when you're bare-ass naked. Yeah, Magecraft is a thing, but that's more of a supplement at that point. You'll need to hit amazingly high DC's if you want to be able to craft in a reasonable amount of time (especially if you're able to add multiple +10's to the DC), but a Dedicated Wright (http://dndtools.eu/monsters/eberron-campaign-setting--12/dedicated-wright--37/) helps immensely, and due to the "not stressful in the slightest, and therefore can take 10 any time you could Craft at all" nature of the skill, you could make one from level 1 if you put an 18 in your Int like any Wizard worth their sheet will if they have the option. That particular option won't slow it down, but it'll mean you can go off and do other things while crafting, and if you invest in a Portable Hole, you don't even have to worry about some berk coming by and messing with the process.

[weckar]

Wizard skills are mostly flavor. After all, they are usually the domain of mere mortals.

[Doc_Maynot]

Concentration
Spellcraft
Lucid Dreaming
Knowledge (History)
Maybe a few in Truenaming so I can later boost the skill to do some unname-ing.
And one point in every other Trained-Only Skill

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Like Chronos said, at least one rank in the knowledges and other relevant trained-only skills. This is even better for a psion or erudite, who can pretty cheaply acquire a dorje of Call to Mind and spam the crap out of a knowledge check until he gets it as long as he has one rank. Max Concentration and Spellcraft because duh. Then it depends on the wizard.

[Chronos]

The thing with craft skills is, they're usable untrained, and they're Int-based. So even if you end up using the skill a lot, you don't really need ranks in them.

[Jeff the Green]

Depends on the Wizard. Pretty much always at least a rank in each Knowledge skill (unless I'm taking Jack-of-All-Trades or Lunatic Insight). Frequently Decipher Script and UMD.

My changeling Wizard/Halfling Whistler also has Survival, Perform, and Handle Animal (as prereqs), as well as Bluff, Disguise, and Gather Information (because she's a changeling).

My spellweaver—which is basically equivalent to a Wizard as homebrewed, if not as presented in MMII—has several Craft skills (gestalt with a class that needs them), UMD, Disable Device, Tumble, and Autohypnosis.

An Archivist—again, basically a Wizard—had Sleight of Hand, Balance, Bluff, Move Silently, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Search, Sense Motive, Autohypnosis, and Hide (it helped that he multiclassed, and gestalted in a later version, as a Beguiler).

With multiclassing most skills can become useful, other than Craft (the spellweaver notwithstanding) and Profession.

[RoboEmperor]

Is Hide and move silently viable on a wizard? With greater heroism and gloves of dexterity he can get a +7 on both of them, and +15 with magic armor enhancements.

[aleucard]

The thing with craft skills is, they're usable untrained, and they're Int-based. So even if you end up using the skill a lot, you don't really need ranks in them.

Yeah, with enough planning and setup (which is significantly less than you'd think) the most you'd ever need to be able to make any item you'd want is a single skill rank. There's a couple issues with this, though.

1, it assumes a significant amount of WBL expenditure into something that's ultimately only tangentially related to your ability to get crap done as needed. Unless if your party is the only viable source of gear that an obscene amount of NPC's will need lest the party fail or something comparably contrived (and a sane DM would only do this if at least one member of the party could do it already), Craft skills are rarely going to be of direct use to problem-solving. Maybe as a supplementary Knowledge check for identifying odd equipment pieces, but that's what the spell is for and it does a better and quicker job anyway.

2, it takes an OBNOXIOUSLY long time to do, even with a Dedicated Wright to finish up. The only way to speed it up noticeably is to either invest feats into it (in which case, why are you dumping the skill(s) that runs your secondary if not primary schtick?), or to boost the crafting DC. Your methods of boosting the check will work much better if they have a solid foundation to work off of. Still, without Custom Magic Item Creation in play (not being able to select enchantments, you know what I'm talking about), the highest bonus you can be expected to find to Craft is MAYBE +10 Competence. That's not going to help as much as you'd think, though it WILL help. The higher you can make the DC without sacrificing your ability to reliably beat it, the faster your progress is made. 31x30 is better than 29x20, after all.

3, sometimes, you're just not going to have your normal gear available. What happens if your DM uses that old trope idea of throwing the party down an Oubliette and tells them to find their own way out with the only equipment they have is maybe their underwear? Even then, there's much less contrived ways of doing the job. Maybe your party was breaching WBL too much for the DM's comfort, and he broke out the Rust Monsters that subsequently got into your crafting supplies out of Sheer Happenstance No Really and you just can't find anyone who's able to put your desired +25 or so on your new gear No Really? Remember, DM's are much more likely to be willing to accept something if your character actually can do something rather than having to rely on you abusing their trust to do so.

EDIT: A reply to the guy who swordsage'd me up top.


Is Hide and move silently viable on a wizard? With greater heroism and gloves of dexterity he can get a +7 on both of them, and +15 with magic armor enhancements.

It certainly is, though it'd be recommended that if you do want to go that route, you make a proper Stealth Gish build and either get Able Learner or save those skills for class levels that have them as class skills. Waste not want not, after all.

[RoboEmperor]

Why does everyone keep saying crafting takes a long time? o_o
We're talking about a wizard here! Fabricate is specifically designed to eliminate time cost! I disagree with people who say they can make 9999 masterwork daggers with a single casting, but I don't disagree with people who say you can make ONE masterwork dagger with one casting. Making a sheet should increase the DC exponentially.

This way you don't spend 10 years in downtime crafting a single full plate and can go on in your adventure. Otherwise like you said, due to time constraints in the campaign, it will be doubtful anyone can craft even one masterwork item.

[deuxhero]

If you plan on using/abusing spells like Fabricate, you'll want at least a few points in relevant crafting skills.

The highest craft DCs are 20 (sans some alchemy one). By level 9 your intelligence modifier+masterwork artisen's tools alone should cover most crafting

[RoboEmperor]

The highest craft DCs are 20 (sans some alchemy one). By level 9 your intelligence modifier+masterwork artisen's tools alone should cover most crafting

You can't use masterwork artisen's tools if you use fabricate. Think about it, you are creating something with your mind by shaping a material, how does a awesome hammer help? It's not a telekinesis spell where you can lift it with your hammer and hit things.

But even if your skill isn't 20, you just need 1 successful roll, which is greater than 50%. With the greater heroism and int items the smallest roll you could do is 13.

Despite that though I'm just gonna max out some craft skills. That way i'm not a power gamer and fluff wise, my character is a master crafter of something :)

[Fax Celestis]

Not sure why everyone is ignoring UMD. Sure, you don't need it for arcane stuff, but divine and psionic stuff needs it.

[Jeff the Green]

Not sure why everyone is ignoring UMD. Sure, you don't need it for arcane stuff, but divine and psionic stuff needs it.

Not everyone. I did forget UPD, though (3.5 only, I believe); it's not as useful as UMD, but it is still very nice.

[Yogibear41]

Max: in this order of importance
1. Concentration
2. Spellcraft
3. Know: Arcana
4. Know: planes
Max if you can but less important
5. Know Religion (more important if you don't have a priesty type around with this maxed already)
6. Know: nature (more important if you don't have a flower child around with this maxed already)
Toss a few ranks to me abberrations and oozes come up less often than others
7. Know: dungeons

I also like to put at least a few ranks into a craft skill, Know: architecture (helps with building that wizard tower) Spot and to a lesser degree Listen are also pretty important in the game I Play in. We also use the Fly Skill from pathfinder. As a general rule of thumb on a wizard with lots of skill points I like to stick at least 1 rank in any knowledge not listed above just for the chance at making a check on something. Survival can come in handy at lower levels if you get separated from your party in the wilderness so you don't wander around lost for days until you die.

[Vortenger]

@someonenoone: What level range are we talking about, here? You've mentioned both Fabricate and MoP, but both of those are unavailable at lower levels. Are you talking about level 1 or 20, because the advice changes radically depending on where on the continuum you fall.

[RoboEmperor]

@someonenoone: What level range are we talking about, here? You've mentioned both Fabricate and MoP, but both of those are unavailable at lower levels. Are you talking about level 1 or 20, because the advice changes radically depending on where on the continuum you fall.

I'm starting at level 1, and I don't know what level I'll finish in, but my DM usually goes upto level 9 spells, sometimes epic, sometimes not.

I don't think I'll change my build even if game ends at level 8, and I don't think I'll craft anything other than wondrous items before I get fabricate.

I'm a very roleplay intensive player so I'll probably max
concentration
spellcraft
knowledge arcane
knowledge planes
Knowledge Religion
craft tattoo
craft armorsmithing
craft sculpting

despite not needing more than 14 craft tattoo and 5 of armorsmithing and sculpting. I was just wondering what other people get because I could power game and get a minimum values for the craft + my increase in intelligence and have a LOT of skill points leftover.

edit: I'm heavily thinking about ride so I can ride my raised undead skeletons in combat. Of course there's also phantom steed...

Quick off-topic question, in mounted combat, does your opponent get to choose who they attack? As in do they get to choose to attack you or your mount, or can you choose?

[aleucard]

Quick off-topic question, in mounted combat, does your opponent get to choose who they attack? As in do they get to choose to attack you or your mount, or can you choose?

I'd recommend that you put a little more in some other knowledges, especially if you want to get Knowledge Devotion, but alright.

I'm fairly sure that they can target either the mount or the rider at will, though I think there's some ways for you to deal with that by way of Ride skill (at least one lets you use your Ride check as a Reflex substitute for you, your mount, or both, which is as insane as it sounds) if you look around. Don't expect most mounts to last that long, though.

[Faily]

After the bread-and-butter skills for Wizards (Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana and your favorite Knowledge skills), I usually invest in fluff-skills like Perform, Craft or Profession.

I like giving my characters a skill that represents their interests, hobbies or just how they prefer to pass the time. I've had things like Craft: Musical instruments, Perform: (music of various sorts), and Profession: Fortuneteller, to mention a few.

[Invader]

The ones that pay the bills... :smallwink:

[ryu]

Use magic device. Why? Your familiar can share your skills. Congratulations. You now have two sets of spellcasting per turn in relatively early to mid levels.

[heavyfuel]

Depends on the Wizard. Pretty much always at least a rank in each Knowledge skill (unless I'm taking Jack-of-All-Trades or Lunatic Insight). Frequently Decipher Script and UMD.



Not sure why everyone is ignoring UMD. Sure, you don't need it for arcane stuff, but divine and psionic stuff needs it.

Is UMD worth spending a feat (Magical Training) to get?

Also, how can you get it if the feat isn't available to you?

[atemu1234]

Whatever skills for the PrC(s) I'm gunning for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is UMD worth spending a feat (Magical Training) to get?

Also, how can you get it if the feat isn't available to you?

Yes, though not necessarily for a wizard.

Skill boosting spells and items can get your bonus high enough to be relevant even at only the cc maximum.

[heavyfuel]

Yes, though not necessarily for a wizard.

Skill boosting spells and items can get your bonus high enough to be relevant even at only the cc maximum.

Man, I can't believe I never noticed that 3.5 doesn't forbid classes other than those with it as class skill from getting ranks in UMD. That kind of sucks I think... I really liked that about 3.0

[Kelb_Panthera]

Man, I can't believe I never noticed that 3.5 doesn't forbid classes other than those with it as class skill from getting ranks in UMD. That kind of sucks I think... I really liked that about 3.0

There's still alchemy.

[tadkins]

My last wizard had considerable ranks in Profession: Farmer. :)

[ryu]

Man, I can't believe I never noticed that 3.5 doesn't forbid classes other than those with it as class skill from getting ranks in UMD. That kind of sucks I think... I really liked that about 3.0

Riiiiiiiiiight because we need the skill system to be more limited and stereotype reinforcing rather than less. The limitation does nothing to stop the people who know what they're doing from getting use from any given skill ranks or no ranks, but prevents people with only moderate system knowledge from effectively branching out.

[heavyfuel]

Riiiiiiiiiight because we need the skill system to be more limited and stereotype reinforcing rather than less. The limitation does nothing to stop the people who know what they're doing from getting use from any given skill ranks or no ranks, but prevents people with only moderate system knowledge from effectively branching out.

While this is true, it was still one of my favorite reasons to play a Rogue or a Bard. The fact that it reinforces stereotypes and doesn't prevent people that are good at optimization is besides the point, because it was simply a small facet of the game that I personally liked that way. Nothing more.

[Chronos]

Why shouldn't the skill system restrict the use of some skills to some characters? Only spellcasters can cast spells, and nobody complains that that reinforces stereotypes. Why shouldn't some skills work the same way?

[Osiris]

Later, Phantom Steed can fly at a crazy speed for quite a while. A few points in Ride assure you of not falling off and breaking all the bones in your fragile wizardey neck. then again, Feather Fall works fine, so it's really just up to you. 5 ranks doesn't hurt.

[Sartharina]

While this is true, it was still one of my favorite reasons to play a Rogue or a Bard. The fact that it reinforces stereotypes and doesn't prevent people that are good at optimization is besides the point, because it was simply a small facet of the game that I personally liked that way. Nothing more.Rogues and Bards got access to decent levels of UMD faster, better, and earlier than anyone else, which is critical in lower-level games.

[ryu]

Why shouldn't the skill system restrict the use of some skills to some characters? Only spellcasters can cast spells, and nobody complains that that reinforces stereotypes. Why shouldn't some skills work the same way?

Wrong. Literally most of the classes in the game are either directly casting spells or have some sort of spell equivalent like psionics or maneuvers. Among the ones that don't have some spell like mechanic built right into class progression? Many still get natural access to UMD or similar with skills. Playing D&D without magic is the exception rather than the rule. Even most fighters or similar demand magic in the form of items to let them actually do things beyond walking around hitting things with sticks. Why should skills be made to make this gap MORE readily apparent I ask you?

[Kraken]

Why shouldn't the skill system restrict the use of some skills to some characters? Only spellcasters can cast spells, and nobody complains that that reinforces stereotypes. Why shouldn't some skills work the same way?

There's a pretty big difference in the scope of skills versus major class features. Speaking from experience in all 3, picking locks, riding horses, and minor feats of legerdemain require not even a full day of learning to master at a very basic level, which is not the case with spellcasting and swordplay. Lockpicking in particular is stupidly easy, there's no reason you can give for restricting who could take it as a skill that wouldn't kick verisimilitude in the balls.