D&D Cage Match

[LoyalPaladin]

A friend of mine came to me the other day and suggested a neat one-on-one tournament styled D&D tournament with a group of our buddies that we play D&D with weekly. So here is the deal.
We want to create an environment that we can all have fun beat the crap out of each other in every week before D&D starts.Which does seem sort of counter productive now that I type that out... none the less! We have some work in progress rules to keep all our builds and playstyles in line.
Now fellow denizens of the playground, I ask you, what could I possibly be missing that would make this cagematch unplayable.

Current Rules:
-No teleporting
-No greater invisibility
-No mounts
-No flying
-No summons
-No raise dead
-No polymorphing

Instructions Given:
-Create an ECL 20 character
-All class and feat prerequisites must be fairly met.

We are using HeroForge to create these characters and are using the 3.5 ruleset.

[Flickerdart]

Welcome to rocket tag, the game where you roll initiative and then the person with the most stacked Contingencies goes first and wins.

[j_spencer93]

Actually i have done this and most players will not abuse contingencies or anything else cheesey so they can have fun. Honestly with your restrictions you should be fine. However i would advise looking at a mage duel rules and using their setup. Makes it a little more interesting

[Flickerdart]

Actually i have done this and most players will not abuse contingencies or anything else cheesey so they can have fun.
That's not the relevant bit. The relevant bit is that level 20 combat is rocket tag - it's much easier to put together an ultimate attack than it is to defend against every possible ultimate attack. So it becomes a game of "do you have a counter to my thing" "no" "ok you died." If you don't have Contingencies, regular initiative is the decider of who fires the rocket first, but the rocket still gets fired.

[LoyalPaladin]

So it becomes a game of "do you have a counter to my thing" "no" "ok you died." If you don't have Contingencies, regular initiative is the decider of who fires the rocket first, but the rocket still gets fired.
So perhaps banning save or die spells would be good... what's your opinion on a magical item budget vs banning magical items entirely.


However i would advise looking at a mage duel rules and using their setup. Makes it a little more interesting
I'll look those up. It sounds interesting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If your group is fond of gishes and you use CAr's suggestion of getting a few buffing rounds before combat it could be fun, otherwise the casters eat the melees and play rocket-tag with each other. Assuming high-op, of course.

IIRC, heroforge's included material is kinda limited, isn't it? Mostly just SRD stuff?

[LoyalPaladin]

If your group is fond of gishes and you use CAr's suggestion of getting a few buffing rounds before combat it could be fun, otherwise the casters eat the melees and play rocket-tag with each other. Assuming high-op, of course.

IIRC, heroforge's included material is kinda limited, isn't it? Mostly just SRD stuff?

I don't often run into a problem where I can't find what I am looking for in HeroForge. As for the buffing rounds... I think with my particular group of players it would definitely become rocket tag if we allowed that.

[Flickerdart]

So perhaps banning save or die spells would be good
Nah, at level 20 it's all about the direct damage. Even your average "hit them with sticks guy" is putting out the kind of numbers that are meant to take down beefy boss monsters, and another adventurer stands no chance.

[ComaVision]

Flickerdart is right. At the least, you should lower the ECL of the combatants. IIRC, the Test of Spite used ECL 13 characters to keep things sane.

[dascarletm]

Welcome to rocket tag, the game where you roll initiative and then the person with the most stacked Contingencies goes first and wins.

Or

Welcome to 20th level combat, the game where one round's up and the hitpoints don't matter.

[Forrestfire]

what's your opinion on a magical item budget vs banning magical items entirely.

If you ban magic items, then spellcasters win 100% of the time. Noncasters have literally no chance.

[(Un)Inspired]

I can't imaging anything other that 100% caster domination even with your house rules in place.

How does the fighter or rogue deal with a cleric or Druid that simply melds with stone and then blasts the crap out of them?

How does you barbarian even try to attack a wizard who is flying? Or the ranger for the wizard behind a wind wall? Crikey, you were thinking about pulling magic items! That makes this disparity so much worse.

You're list of bans in gonna need to be pages and pages long to protect your muggles and at the point you might as well just ban casters. This leaves you with the dnd equivalent of bum fights.

[Forrestfire]

Flickerdart is right. At the least, you should lower the ECL of the combatants. IIRC, the Test of Spite used ECL 13 characters to keep things sane.

Honestly, just using the Test of Spite's rules might be a fairly good way to approach the concept.

[Venger]

what nicholas cage characters will your friends be using?

[Forrestfire]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/DiegoHavoc/s7gwqL.gif

[Darrin]

IT CANNOT BE UNSEEN.

OMG... I... I want to run a "Nicholas Cage Match" now.

(Hmm. Which would be much easier with the Feng Shui rules.)

[Venger]

OMG... I... I want to run a "Nicholas Cage Match" now.

(Hmm. Which would be much easier with the Feng Shui rules.)

did someone say... feng shui nic cage?

http://www.blastr.com/sites/blastr/files/styles/blog_post_media/public/images/Nicolas_Cage_Fu_Manchu.jpg?itok=8BaUiwAU

[dascarletm]

Venger.... I love you.

[LoyalPaladin]

I can't imaging anything other that 100% caster domination even with your house rules in place.
I'm not going to lie, most of the people in this match are going to probably play melee characters. It's just sort of how my group roles. The closest I see a fight getting to a caster is an Abjurant Champion or a Bard. I'm not too worried about the whole "rocket fight" concept, mostly because I know the group. Their more likely to play something fun to enter into the competition rather than something that can blow away the competition. But we needed the rules just in case someone thought it'd be funny to teleport, fly, or play a Pixie rogue.

Venger.... I love you.
I second this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not going to lie, most of the people in this match are going to probably play melee characters. It's just sort of how my group roles. The closest I see a fight getting to a caster is an Abjurant Champion or a Bard. I'm not too worried about the whole "rocket fight" concept, mostly because I know the group. Their more likely to play something fun to enter into the competition rather than something that can blow away the competition. But we needed the rules just in case someone thought it'd be funny to teleport, fly, or play a Pixie rogue.

That helps alot.

That being the case; I don't see a need for the no flying and no teleportation rules. I'm kinda iffy about the mount thing too. How does one raise dead when their dead? Contingency, I suppose.

With the above outlined, I seriously doubt anything beyond no summoning and no outside interference is necessary.


I second this.

I groaned so hard I think I pulled something. :smallamused:

[dascarletm]

I groaned so hard, I think I pulled something.
:smalleek:
goodness.
:smallredface:

[LoyalPaladin]

That helps alot.

That being the case; I don't see a need for the no flying and no teleportation rules. I'm kinda iffy about the mount thing too. How does one raise dead when their dead? Contingency, I suppose.
The only reason to keep those bans in is to keep it from eventually happening. We would be pretty good at keeping it to melee combat, but we have that ONE guy who would eventually decide that he wants to win so bad he would cheese us.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only reason to keep those bans in is to keep it from eventually happening. We would be pretty good at keeping it to melee combat, but we have that ONE guy who would eventually decide that he wants to win so bad he would cheese us.

You misunderstand me. What I mean is; why are flying, teleportation, and especially mounts a problem? I mean, it's not like outright damage immunity or something on that level.

[Darrin]

You misunderstand me. What I mean is; why are flying, teleportation, and especially mounts a problem? I mean, it's not like outright damage immunity or something on that level.

Flight: Anyone who isn't also flying = dead. Autowin button.

Teleportation: Kinda a grab-bag of oddball results, such as escaping the arena (annoying), teleporting a rival (who has to forfeit, hence win button), or to relocate the fight to a location that puts him at a huge advantage or an autowin.

Mount: Similar to flying, but most likely the mounted player can "kite" his enemy, moving far enough away after every attack to prevent his opponent from attacking. There's also the problem that a properly spec'ed mount may outclass the contestants.

[Venger]

Flight: Anyone who isn't also flying = dead. Autowin button.

Teleportation: Kinda a grab-bag of oddball results, such as escaping the arena (annoying), teleporting a rival (who has to forfeit, hence win button), or to relocate the fight to a location that puts him at a huge advantage or an autowin.

Mount: Similar to flying, but most likely the mounted player can "kite" his enemy, moving far enough away after every attack to prevent his opponent from attacking. There's also the problem that a properly spec'ed mount may outclass the contestants.

Mount might also be for action econ reasons since the group sounds very low op.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Flight: Anyone who isn't also flying = dead. Autowin button.

Well duh. I seriously question how you would even make level 20 without picking up a means of flight. Why wouldn't all parties involved have flight unless it was disallowed?


Teleportation: Kinda a grab-bag of oddball results, such as escaping the arena (annoying), teleporting a rival (who has to forfeit, hence win button), or to relocate the fight to a location that puts him at a huge advantage or an autowin.

The only one of those that matters for an officiated duel is the option to teleport the enemy away and that's just another SoD. Teleport away, forfeit. Teleport both combatants, forfeit whether the foe saves or not. I still don't see a problem.


Mount: Similar to flying, but most likely the mounted player can "kite" his enemy, moving far enough away after every attack to prevent his opponent from attacking. There's also the problem that a properly spec'ed mount may outclass the contestants.

Ready action to trip if they melee, tower shield if they like ranged, boned anyway if they like spells. Still not seeing a problem.

Action economy abuse requires a mount who has actions worth taking. Most of 'em don't and the ones that do eat up a lot of the character's build excepting probably true dragon mounts via that one feat. Those are intelligent enough the officials could simply call it a foul on the 1v1 rule.

[tKUUNK]

This can be a lot of fun and it sounds like you have a good group for it. I have a suggestion which made this more fun when I did it years ago.

Create a list of battlegrounds and/or environmental conditions, such as "forest", "on a lake in separate rowboats", or "in a 20'x20'x20' stone-walled space with no exits and no teleporting". Then randomly roll to pick one at the start of each fight.

You can also randomly decide starting distance between combatants at the time of the fight.

Have at it!!

[LoyalPaladin]

This can be a lot of fun and it sounds like you have a good group for it. I have a suggestion which made this more fun when I did it years ago.

Create a list of battlegrounds and/or environmental conditions, such as "forest", "on a lake in separate rowboats", or "in a 20'x20'x20' stone-walled space with no exits and no teleporting". Then randomly roll to pick one at the start of each fight.

You can also randomly decide starting distance between combatants at the time of the fight.

Have at it!!
That sounds like a great idea! I will definitely do this!