is it LA +0 or LA+1 for dark creature template Whisper gnome?

[Jackofalltrades]

so the title basically says it all. i been toying with it for over an hour and i can't seem to figure out if its LA +0 or LA +1 here are the state

"Dark" is an acquired or inherited template that can be added any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A dark creature has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: Type and size are unchanged. Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype.
Speed: As base creature, +10 feet to all modes of movement.
Special Qualities: A dark creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).
Resistance to cold 10.
Superior low-light vision.
Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6

here are the rules for dark creatures

Behind The Curtain: Dark Creatures

The dark template is designed to be simple and flavorful. You can easily apply it on the fly to add shadow-based creatures to the campaign. It's a simple, streamlined version of the shadow creature template.

The dark creature template should either add +0 or +1 to a creature's CR. Some creatures won't gain much benefit from the template. For example, a white dragon already has darkvision, superior low-light vision, and immunity to cold. It gains a small increase to its already good speed and the ability to hide in plain sight. This template won't appreciably increase its CR. On the other hand, a creature such as a lion gains greater benefit and likely merits a +1 increase to its CR.

Its level adjustment is low, making it a reasonable cost for PCs. You might allow a player character with a strong connection to the Plane of Shadow to acquire this template in lieu of a class level.
here are the whispers gnomes stats
Whisper Gnome Racial Traits

+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Strength, -2 Charisma: Whisper gnomes are agile and tough, but they are Small and therefore not as strong as larger humanoids. Their quiet nature also leads to a lack of personal presence.

Small: As a Small creature, a whisper gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

Whisper gnome base land speed is 30 feet, despite their size.

Low-Light Vision: A whisper gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Darkvision: Whisper gnomes can see in the dark out to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and whisper gnomes can function just fine with no light at all.

Weapon Familiarity: Whisper gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.

+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears): Like their more common cousins, whisper gnomes battle these creatures frequently and practice special techniques for fighting them.

+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants): This bonus represents special training that whisper gnomes undergo, during which they learn tricks that previous generations developed in their battles with giants. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it's caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. The Monster Manual has information on which creatures are of the giant type.

+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks: Whisper gnomes have an uncanny knack for stealth.

+2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks: Whisper gnomes have keen eyes and ears.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day -- silence (must be centered on whisper gnome's body). A whisper gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- ghost sound, mage hand, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + whisper gnome's Cha modifier + spell level.

Favored Class: Rogue. The best multiclass choices for whisper gnome rogues are fighter, ranger, and cleric. A fair number of whisper gnome wizards and sorcerers become arcane tricksters.

so

[Kevingway]

For some reason I remember Whisper Gnomes having a level adjustment of their own. If they don't, however, the level adjustment will be +1. If they do, it'll actually be +2.

[MilesTiden]

Dark Template is always +1 LA. The CR increase doesn't matter for PCs, it's just level adjustment.

[KillianHawkeye]

CR is not the same as Level Adjustment. You should just ignore entirely anything you read about CR if you're applying a template to a PC.

[atemu1234]

CR is not the same as Level Adjustment. You should just ignore entirely anything you read about CR if you're applying a template to a PC.

This, basically. Though they measure similar things, PCs get more out-of-combat benefits from templates, which makes more LA necessary. CR measures challenge, usually in combat, so non-combat abilities aren't so useful.

[Jackofalltrades]

Okay, well i apparently made a mistake.:smallfrown: for some reason i was thinking CR equaled LA, but that's not how it works.(duh) well does anyone know any good LA +0 templates that will make a whisper gnome even better at stealthy rogue abilities, i plan to make a Lv1 whisper gnome rogue that at around lv 10 will take a few lv dip in shadow dancer. (not looking for items or spells build/ideas) just LA +0 templates and possibly a few lv dip in another class/prestige class before shadow dancer. any book publish by WoTh is allowed except dragon magazine and possibly some stuff from ToB and ToM. also nothing that requires him to be evil, I'm hoping to make chaotic/neutral good, maybe chaotic neutral if required.

[atemu1234]

Okay, well i apparently made a mistake.:smallfrown: for some reason i was thinking CR equaled LA, but that's not how it works.(duh) well does anyone know any good LA +0 templates that will make a whisper gnome even better at stealthy rogue abilities, i plan to make a Lv1 whisper gnome rogue that at around lv 10 will take a few lv dip in shadow dancer. (not looking for items or spells build/ideas) just LA +0 templates and possibly a few lv dip in another class/prestige class before shadow dancer. any book publish by WoTh is allowed except dragon magazine and possibly some stuff from ToB and ToM. also nothing that requires him to be evil, I'm hoping to make chaotic/neutral good, maybe chaotic neutral if required.

Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium, because they are good at everything.

LA +0 is broken, no matter what, unless they apply a significant penalty.

[Jackofalltrades]

yeah, i really like the unseelie fey template. but i tried to get it before, but the DM says its too powerful for LA+0 maybe if it was LA+2 he would allow it. but i understand what he means, high chance to gain fully functional wings/blindsense/other perks. not quit what i wanted but thank you though.

[The Viscount]

It is too powerful for LA+1, and oh how I wish they actually printed an LA on this template or actually fixed it in errata instead of just mentioning CR adjustment (+1, which casts doubt on its shaky LA+0 nature). As for LA +0 templates there's almost none worth anything. Dragonborn of Bahamut is a pseudo-template which is very good.

Vecna Blooded is also LA+0 once you use it up by expending the DR, but you keep immunity to all divination spells and the ability to know who cast the spell and where they are, which is a pretty sweet trade. Some might argue about its LA+0 nature, and the template does make you have little in the way of a face.

[Chronos]

Dragonborn of Bahamut is a pseudo-template which is very good.
For many characters, but probably not for a whisper gnome, because it takes away all of the whisper gnome's nice racial abilities, and gives a Dex penalty.

[Jackofalltrades]

Hmmm. I was looking at the dark creature template. and combining it with strongheart halfling makes it pretty good. i'm not clear about the La buyoff. i know for the dark creature template it allows you start with it at lv1 and pay it off at Lv 3. correct me if I'm wrong but does that mean you will behind one Lv and will only reach lv 19? (if lv 20 is the capstone for levels) is it just better to play a whisper gnome rogue or play a dark creatue stongheart halfling? i feel that the halfling will be over better, bonus feat is pretty strong, but then again adding dark creature to a whisper gnome is really appealing too. what do you guys think?

[Forrestfire]

If you're at a lower level than the party, you get more exp to help you catch up.

[Jackofalltrades]

If you're at a lower level than the party, you get more exp to help you catch up.

so what your saying is i could eventually catch up with the rest of the party and not lose out on a lv of rogue?

[Rebel7284]

You can pick up the dark template with the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[Zaq]

I can't think of any LA +0 templates other than Unseelie Fey, unless you count pseudotemplates like Dragonborn and Necropolitan. WotC screwed up nearly everything having to do with LA, but aside from Unseelie Fey, they got that much right: LA +0 is bad juju.

[Jackofalltrades]

You can pick up the dark template with the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

yeah i'v seen that, it would be great to have that instead of taking a Lv1 template, but i wouldn't have that much gold at 1st level, i could always work towards it.

but when it comes down to adding it which is better adding it to strong heart halfling or whisper gnome. for the halfling it makes it little better then the stranded whisper gnome, extra feat is always good. but if you add it to a whisper gnome you get speed 40, a +16 to hide and move silently +10. i actully leaning a bit towards gnome but the extra feat is temping me:smallsigh:

[Forrestfire]

so what your saying is i could eventually catch up with the rest of the party and not lose out on a lv of rogue?

Yes. Unless the DM is ignoring the exp rules, lower-level party members get more exp than the rest of the party, and will eventually catch up. If your DM is ignoring the exp rules, talk to them about that, or buy a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

Personally, I'm a fan of Dark Whisper Gnome, especially once you grab Darkstalker. You'll have some absurd hide and move silently checks. The choice between them really depends on if you absolutely need the feat.

[Jackofalltrades]

Yes. Unless the DM is ignoring the exp rules, lower-level party members get more exp than the rest of the party, and will eventually catch up. If your DM is ignoring the exp rules, talk to them about that, or buy a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

Personally, I'm a fan of Dark Whisper Gnome, especially once you grab Darkstalker. You'll have some absurd hide and move silently checks. The choice between them really depends on if you absolutely need the feat.

Great!! that exactly what i was hoping for:smallbiggrin:. I'll talk to my DM and see if he'll let me take it with whisper gnome. if so i'll skip shadowdancer because i'll be getting a weaker but still good hid in plain sight. some nice bonuses on my stealth abilities. and then i won't be wasting 3 feats, dodge and mobility are not really needed (not always) but getting combat reflexes is in my opinion due to the fact rogues have high reflex saves already.

edit: two questions.
1) i heard shadowdancer isn't really worth it for the feat requirement. is there any other prestige classes that are REALLY fun and powerful to have that fit in with the my characters theme of being a good align stealth character? I'm hoping for nothing that is evil.
2) whats your option on a rogue/sneak attack fighter? thought about this build if we ever do a Gestalt campaign. seems to me by lV 20 you would have full BAB, 21d6 sneak attack, not including the possibility of craven and two weapon fighting. :smalleek:

[Jowgen]

This is a public service announcement:

Anyone interested in ever using the Dark Creature Template should read up on the Forgotten Realms adventure module Comyr: the tearing of the weave.

It is more recent than Tome of Magic, and features a re-print of the Dark Creature Template that includes the Su version of Hide In Plain Sight, which does not require cover or concealment to hide. If your DM accepts this book, you've just gotten a free upgrade to an already great template.

Addtionally, this book contains a magical location (Failed Shadow Gate) that can grant the Dark Creature template in exchange for 5000 gp (that being the ability value for WBL) and permanently evil alignment, provided you have 5 days of exclusive access to this location in conjunction with a means to auto-stabilize/heal at -9 HP. Using this location (if it is available) is likely more effecient than acquiring the Template Normally (e.g. paying a +1 LA) or spending 20+k on a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Nitpick, but isn't copying the whole feat (as the OP did) against the forum rules? Dark Creature is not in the SRD? Not OGL? Shouldn't the OP edit the details out before the admins take him to task?

[Jackofalltrades]

This is a public service announcement:

Anyone interested in ever using the Dark Creature Template should read up on the Forgotten Realms adventure module Comyr: the tearing of the weave.

It is more recent than Tome of Magic, and features a re-print of the Dark Creature Template that includes the Su version of Hide In Plain Sight, which does not require cover or concealment to hide. If your DM accepts this book, you've just gotten a free upgrade to an already great template.

Addtionally, this book contains a magical location (Failed Shadow Gate) that can grant the Dark Creature template in exchange for 5000 gp (that being the ability value for WBL) and permanently evil alignment, provided you have 5 days of exclusive access to this location in conjunction with a means to auto-stabilize/heal at -9 HP. Using this location (if it is available) is likely more effecient than acquiring the Template Normally (e.g. paying a +1 LA) or spending 20+k on a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

O_o ........... you just made my day Jowgen. then i really don't need shadow dancer. but i won't be able to the whole failed shadow gate thing. I just don't like evil characters. that's just me though. but thank you, i got a lot of convincing to do. it all seems like it comes from reliable books publish from WoTc so hopefully there's no problems

[Chronos]

The Cormyr version is not necessarily superior. On the plus side, it addresses concealment, but on the minus side, it's (Su) instead of (Ex). And no, those aren't the same point: Most other versions of HiPS, supernatural and extraordinary alike, remove the need for concealment.

[Forrestfire]

2) whats your option on a rogue/sneak attack fighter? thought about this build if we ever do a Gestalt campaign. seems to me by lV 20 you would have full BAB, 21d6 sneak attack, not including the possibility of craven and two weapon fighting. :smalleek:

The sneak attack doesn't stack, because they're the same ability:

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[Andezzar]

The Cormyr version is not necessarily superior. On the plus side, it addresses concealment, but on the minus side, it's (Su) instead of (Ex). And no, those aren't the same point: Most other versions of HiPS, supernatural and extraordinary alike, remove the need for concealment.(Nearly) all SU versions of HiPS obviate the need for concealment (e.g. Shadowdancer) but (nearly) all Ex versions do not (e.g. Ranger). I know no instance of HiPS that is does not fall into one of these categories.

Don't forget another problem with the dark creature template (however you acquire it): You become an extraplanar creature on the material plane and will be sent to the plane of shadows with dismissal and similar magic. You better have a way to survive there and come back.

[Jowgen]

O_o ........... you just made my day Jowgen.

It's what I do :smallcool:

[Jackofalltrades]

(Nearly) all SU versions of HiPS obviate the need for concealment (e.g. Shadowdancer) but (nearly) all Ex versions do not (e.g. Ranger). I know no instance of HiPS that is does not fall into one of these categories.

Don't forget another problem with the dark creature template (however you acquire it): You become an extraplanar creature on the material plane and will be sent to the plane of shadows with dismissal and similar magic. You better have a way to survive there and come back.

Hmm.. that is a problem, but i guess that there had to be some downside to make up for the positives.

[Rijan_Sai]

Great!! that exactly what i was hoping for:smallbiggrin:. I'll talk to my DM and see if he'll let me take it with whisper gnome. if so i'll skip shadowdancer because i'll be getting a weaker but still good hid in plain sight. some nice bonuses on my stealth abilities. and then i won't be wasting 3 feats, dodge and mobility are not really needed (not always) but getting combat reflexes is in my opinion due to the fact rogues have high reflex saves already.

edit: two questions.
1) i heard shadowdancer isn't really worth it for the feat requirement. is there any other prestige classes that are REALLY fun and powerful to have that fit in with the my characters theme of being a good align stealth character? I'm hoping for nothing that is evil.
2) whats your option on a rogue/sneak attack fighter? thought about this build if we ever do a Gestalt campaign. seems to me by lV 20 you would have full BAB, 21d6 sneak attack, not including the possibility of craven and two weapon fighting. :smalleek:


The sneak attack doesn't stack, because they're the same ability:

Actually, if I understand the gestalt rules correctly (big IF, but I have studied those more then some,) then something like:
Rogue 20//SLTWF Barb 1/SA Fighter 19 should get 20d6 sneak attack by level twenty, along with all the Whirling Frenzy-Pounce goodness of the Barbarian level.

[Forrestfire]

They take accrue at the fastest rate, which is every odd level no matter how you stagger it. It doesn't add each time it comes up at a level and isn't matched on the other side.

Your DM could rule otherwise, but it's the same ability, so it'd progress at the fastest rate by RAW.

... I think.

[Rijan_Sai]

They take accrue at the fastest rate, which is every odd level no matter how you stagger it. It doesn't add each time it comes up at a level and isn't matched on the other side.

Your DM could rule otherwise, but it's the same ability, so it'd progress at the fastest rate by RAW.

... I think.

I can see it that way, but the way I've always read it is that leveling up looks at each individual level, rather then the whole (it's wierd, I know...)

Also, since you're technically not leveling up two classes at once, (A1+B1) but rather one "dual class," (AB1) you get the best features of that "class" at that time. Except that you are leveling up two classes at once...like I said, wierd...

So while Rogue get SA 1d6 at level 1, and SA Fighter gets SA 1d6 at level 1, if you took them at the same time, the class feature would overlap. By staggering them, you RogueSLTWFBabarian1/RogueSAFighter1, but because you cannot take the first level (or any subsequent levels) of a class more then once, you get the class features of SLTWFBarbarian 1, Rogue 2, SAFighter 1. And, because you took that level of SAF at the same time that you got effective R2, R2 does not grant an increase to SA at that level, but SAF does.
Getting the better class feature then would mean that you would get the increase, because while it's the same class feature, it comes from different sources at different times, and SA is a bonus that is known to stack.

... I think.

(One thing I do know, is that gestalt rules are strange and convoluted, and yet work great if you're taking two distinct classes.)