Do PrCs Work with Master Spellthief?

[Kevingway]

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.


At each level except 1st and 6th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

I just quoted a generic spellcasting advancement class (Jade Phoenix Mage, in this case) for the purpose of demonstrating what most other PrCs do when they advance spellcasting.

What I'm seeing is, unless you take levels in Spellthief along with Wizard, Sorcerer, Duskblade, etc., you aren't getting the benefit of the Master Spellthief feat. While a PrC may advance your casting, I can't quite convince myself that you're gaining all of the other benefits due to that same clause that most other casting-advancing classes have, and this feat isn't specifically tied to caster level so much as "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief." That phrase seems to specifically apply to a class that has its own casting progression, not a class that advances the progression of another class.

Am I mistaken in saying that the feat can only work when taking levels in a class that has its own advancement?

[nedz]

Probably, though the argument can be made both ways. RAW is quite vague on this.

[Troacctid]

The "You do not gain any other benefits" line is irrelevant. You don't care about other benefits. You only care about arcane spellcasting, which the prestige class grants.

That said, it's still ambiguous, so ask your DM. The commonsense interpretation is to just add up your arcane caster levels.

[Fax Celestis]

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45421/how-are-caster-levels-determined-in-concert-with-the-feat-master-spellthief Here's a good dissection of how the feat works.

[Waddacku]

Correct, only levels in classes that actually grant spellcasting stack for purposes of what level of spell you can steal. PrCs that advance casting don't help. Sadly.

[Troacctid]

Basically your Spellthief levels and your levels in classes that grant arcane spellcasting stack to determine the maximum level of spells you can steal. Jade Phoenix Mage grants arcane spellcasting, so a Spellthief 9/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 could steal spells as a Spellthief 19, ie 9th level spells. The feat doesn't improve your capacity to store the spells you steal, so you'd still only be able to carry 9 spell levels' worth of spells since you only have 9 actual Spellthief levels.

Then the feat also makes your arcane caster levels stack. So your caster level for Spellthief spells stacks with your caster level for Jade Phoenix Mage spells. Jade Phoenix Mage doesn't have its own spellcasting, though--it adds to another class's casting. So that part of the feat grants no benefit to this character.

[Fax Celestis]

Correct, only levels in classes that actually grant spellcasting stack for purposes of what level of spell you can steal. PrCs that advance casting don't help. Sadly.

Please find me a definition of what a class that grants spellcasting is. We had a long argument about this in the Dysfunctional Rules thread: "caster level" and "spellcaster level" are used both interchangeably and un-interchangeably, yet the latter is never actually defined anywhere, and "spellcasting class" is never defined at all. You can make your argument about it requiring an inherent advancement rather than including "+1 existing" class features, but there's no founding for your argument or for mine (which includes prestige class advancements).

[Troacctid]

I mean, it's got to be tough to argue that a prestige class doesn't grant arcane spellcasting when it literally grants a class feature with the name "arcane spellcasting" that gives you arcane spells that you can then cast.

[Urpriest]

I just quoted a generic spellcasting advancement class (Jade Phoenix Mage, in this case) for the purpose of demonstrating what most other PrCs do when they advance spellcasting.

What I'm seeing is, unless you take levels in Spellthief along with Wizard, Sorcerer, Duskblade, etc., you aren't getting the benefit of the Master Spellthief feat. While a PrC may advance your casting, I can't quite convince myself that you're gaining all of the other benefits due to that same clause that most other casting-advancing classes have, and this feat isn't specifically tied to caster level so much as "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief." That phrase seems to specifically apply to a class that has its own casting progression, not a class that advances the progression of another class.

Am I mistaken in saying that the feat can only work when taking levels in a class that has its own advancement?

You're ignoring part of your own quote:


At each level except 1st and 6th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Master Spellthief wants to calculate your caster level so it asks, what is your Wizard level? Jade Pheonix Mage says, whenever a mechanic is calculating your caster level, it increases as it would if you had instead taken a level of Wizard.

It still doesn't increase your Arcane Spellcaster Level in general, so it won't give access to Improved Familiars. But caster level is covered by the PrC's language, even with Master Spellthief in play.

[Kevingway]

You're ignoring part of your own quote:



Master Spellthief wants to calculate your caster level so it asks, what is your Wizard level? Jade Pheonix Mage says, whenever a mechanic is calculating your caster level, it increases as it would if you had instead taken a level of Wizard.

It still doesn't increase your Arcane Spellcaster Level in general, so it won't give access to Improved Familiars. But caster level is covered by the PrC's language, even with Master Spellthief in play.

Hm. That seems convoluted, though; how is the wording distinctly different from improved familiars that one would work but the other wouldn't?

And, granted, I did ignore that part, but only because of the following sentence. It's hard to choose which would come into play when a feat of that nature is concerned.

[Troacctid]

It doesn't improve your familiar abilities. It works fine with the Improved Familiar feat, which counts your arcane spellcaster level, not your levels in familiar-granting classes.

[Urpriest]

Hm. That seems convoluted, though; how is the wording distinctly different from improved familiars that one would work but the other wouldn't?

And, granted, I did ignore that part, but only because of the following sentence. It's hard to choose which would come into play when a feat of that nature is concerned.

It's not the wording of the Master Spellthief feat that's important, it's the wording of the PrC. Since the PrC says that it increases caster level as if you had gained a level in the base class, it increases caster level regardless of how caster level is calculated. Master Spellthief still calculates caster level based on levels in the base class, so it still triggers.

[atemu1234]

Meh, as DM, I'd allow it.

As a player, I probably wouldn't use it.