Explain this build to me, please?

[weckar]

I was surfing around, doing research, when I came upon an idea someone posted:

I like Feat Rogue 12/Swashbuckler 3/Scout 5, mixed around a bit, of course. With Daring Outlaw and Swift Ambusher (qualify by grabbing Assassin Stance w/feats or items), you get 10d6 Sneak Attack and 5d6 Skirmish, as well as a bunch of Fighter feats.
I have no idea how one would drag a full 10d6 SA out of this, and I am probably missing something. Could anyone.... give me a clue as to what this person may have been referring to?

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure that the Daring Outlaw and Swift Ambusher feats allow Swashbuckler and Scout respectively to stack with Rogue levels for determining total Sneak Attack. Although if that Feat Rogue is what I think it is (trading Sneak Attack for Fighter bonus feats), then it probably shouldn't work.

[weckar]

Yes, but the Feat rogue does not HAVE sneak attack. Does this then mean that the individual feats have some textual synergy I may have missed?

[Troacctid]

The idea is that Rogue and Scout/Swashbuckler levels stack for determining sneak attack damage, so even if you don't normally get sneak attack from your Rogue levels, you get to count them as if you did. (You get sneak attack from some other source in order to qualify for the feats.)

That's the intent of the build, but it probably does not actually work within the rules.

[prufock]

I was surfing around, doing research, when I came upon an idea someone posted:

I have no idea how one would drag a full 10d6 SA out of this, and I am probably missing something. Could anyone.... give me a clue as to what this person may have been referring to?

I'm pretty sure the creator is just reading Daring Outlaw pretty liberally to get the desired result.

Swift Ambusher means rogue and scout levels stack for skirmish. Rogue 12 + Scout 5 = 17th level skirmish, which is +5d6, +4 AC. This part works fine, as far as I can tell.

Daring Outlaw normally stacks swashbuckler levels with rogue for sneak attack. Rogue 12 + Swashbuckler 3 = 15th level sneak attack, which is 8d6. Add in the two for the Assassin's Stance (picked up through Martial Study + Martial Stance) and you've still only got 10d6. Because Feat Rogue trades away sneak attack for the feats, however, it should only get sneak attack as a level 3 rogue for its 3 levels in swashbuckler, which is 2d6 (+2d6 for Assassin's stance). A less generous reading would say you're getting only the Assassin's Stance 2d6, since you count as a level 15 feat rogue and get no sneak attack from class levels at all.

[nedz]

I'm pretty sure the creator is just reading Daring Outlaw pretty liberally to get the desired result.

Swift Ambusher means rogue and scout levels stack for skirmish. Rogue 12 + Scout 5 = 17th level skirmish, which is +5d6, +4 AC. This part works fine, as far as I can tell.

Daring Outlaw normally stacks swashbuckler levels with rogue for sneak attack. Rogue 12 + Swashbuckler 3 = 15th level sneak attack, which is 8d6. Add in the two for the Assassin's Stance (picked up through Martial Study + Martial Stance) and you've still only got 10d6. Because Feat Rogue trades away sneak attack for the feats, however, it should only get sneak attack as a level 3 rogue for its 3 levels in swashbuckler, which is 2d6 (+2d6 for Assassin's stance). A less generous reading would say you're getting only the Assassin's Stance 2d6, since you count as a level 15 feat rogue and get no sneak attack from class levels at all.

Well arguably it shouldn't get those 2d6 from swash even, because Feat Rogue — though a case could be made for two more Fighter Feats.

[weckar]

So, consensus is: Doesn't work? Good to know.

Back to the decision of Rogue V Feat Rogue for me, then.

[Venger]

There's no "probably" about it. Daring outlaw requires 2d6 sneak attack which this build does not, at any point get. If he got 2 dice of sneak attack elsewhere and then took daring outlaw to gain sneak attack "back" from his rogue levels, that would be clever, but not against the RAW of daring outlaw. If you want some fighter feats, just pick up some sneak attack elsewhere. Dipping swordsage for assassin's stance gives 2 dice of sneak attack, so that'll cover you and let daring outlaw function normally.

[Troacctid]

The build qualifies by getting Assassin's Stance through feats. It still doesn't work, because stacking with Rogue levels to determine sneak attack is useless when your Rogue levels don't grant sneak attack.

Edit: However, if you're stuck on choosing between feat rogue and standard rogue, why not do both? Unearthed Arcana says that you're allowed to multiclass between different variants of the same class. So you could be a Feat Rogue 2/Wilderness Rogue 8 or whatever. Trade away your duplicate evasion and trapfinding for other ACFs and you're golden.