Milo's Stupid(er) Characters- The Armless Monk (3.5e)

[Milodiah]

Howdy, Playground!

If you haven't heard, I operate on the Principle of Diminishing Backups- I'm working on filling out twenty characters to pull from as they die...but, if I end up with a DM who is so bloodthirsty that five of my characters die without me deliberately doing something idiotic, each character beyond five is increasingly stupider until the DM realizes that each time he strikes me down, I become dumber than he could possibly imagine. Number six is an alcoholic sorcerer with state-dependent memory syndrome...number twenty is a self-animating psionic globster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globster).

One character I'm currently working on is, as the title says, a monk with no arms who kicks ass in spite of possessing neither arms nor caster levels. However, I want this one to be combat capable (read "optimized") in order to contrast his apparent uselessness.

So, Playground...how could I best optimize a dude with no arms, barring casting or psionics?

Tentative race is catfolk, but for no real reason. Initial level is 10, but feel free to go above and beyond to provide a leveling path. And finally, feel free to draw from any and all sources you want, even homebrew...this is more or less just an exercise in absurdity.


Bonus points if you can give this armless chap a viable ranged attack!

[Extra Anchovies]

All of the feats with "kick" in their name.

Then pick up Stunning Fist, and watch your DM puzzle that one out.

[Venger]

shape soulmeld (dissolving spittle) is a popular choice for a reliable ranged attack.

[dysprosium]

A possible long winded and feat/class intensive way would be to get into Bloodstorm Blade. IIRC there is a level where the throwing of the weapon is treated the same as a melee attack.

Also be a race with a natural bite attack or acquire it somehow. Acquire a mouthpick weapon as described in Lords of Madness.

Now you may not have any arms but you have a weapon in your mouth that you can throw and return to you.

The image in my mind is just crazy.

[Extra Anchovies]

A possible long winded and feat/class intensive way would be to get into Bloodstorm Blade. IIRC there is a level where the throwing of the weapon is treated the same as a melee attack.

Also be a race with a natural bite attack or acquire it somehow. Acquire a mouthpick weapon as described in Lords of Madness.

Now you may not have any arms but you have a weapon in your mouth that you can throw and return to you.

The image in my mind is just crazy.

Their combat style would look a little like this:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbqdd04Ufy1qgb02u.jpg

[D4rkh0rus]

I am led to believe that normally, monks are allowed to use their feet as unarmed strikes.

One feet damage option (no magic) I can think of is the storm talon PRC, they get 2 talon attacks but you would need to be a raptoran.

[Bad Wolf]

This is a beautiful idea. I suggest Improved Grapple.

Just picture it. An armless catfolk monk grappling opponents with his/her legs.

[animewatcha]

Got a sources allowed list so we can have fun with this?

[D4rkh0rus]

If you can take psionics... then I got a better idea, that little girl from elfen lied that had no arms or legs and used her powers to control fake ones. lol.

[AvatarVecna]

Technically speaking, you don't even need fist or feet to fight effectively as a monk (at least, not offensively): the monks whole body is their weapon; you can be "Long Wang, master of Pelvic Thrust style!", if you so choose.

[Milodiah]

Got a sources allowed list so we can have fun with this?


And finally, feel free to draw from any and all sources you want, even homebrew...this is more or less just an exercise in absurdity.

Also, kicking is one thing, but as a Call of Cthulhu player who has once pimped his character out with matching kilt, Tam o'Shanter, and sixty points in Headbutt, I fully believe in the power of hurting things with your head. And since Monk entries deliberately refer to attacks as unarmed "strikes" rather than "punches or kicks"...

[deuxhero]

Be a Diplomancer with the Cards over Swords feat. You don't have hands to hold your hand, but you can defeat foes by playing children's card game with them.

[animewatcha]

Okay fair enough on the sources bit ( just got off from 2 jobs in one day ). Another important thing. LA buyoff. Yes or no.

[AvatarVecna]

Be a Diplomancer with the Cards over Swords feat. You don't have hands to hold your hand, but you can defeat foes by playing children's card game with them.

You fool! Don't cross the threads; you have no idea what could happen!

[Milodiah]

Okay fair enough on the sources bit ( just got off from 2 jobs in one day ). Another important thing. LA buyoff. Yes or no.

My group more or less ignores LA penalties unless it exceeds three...mostly my fault for forgetting to pay attention to it during character creation for our longest-running campaign. However, this is more a general thing, so I'd be trying to stick to RAW as much as possible, and I don't think LA buyoff is strictly RAW.

[animewatcha]

Ladies and gentlemen, let us present the horny half-minotaur. In some strange kung fu fashion, he grapples his opponents and proceeds to hump their face. If the poor soul cannot 'give a little', rib cage and who knows what else counts as an unarmed strike.


Reliable ranged attack??? Necklace of natural weapons with throwing and returning unarmed strike. Who here can say surprise bootycall.

[Venger]

Be a Diplomancer with the Cards over Swords feat. You don't have hands to hold your hand, but you can defeat foes by playing children's card game with them.

what is cards over swords? I've never even heard of that. is that pf or kingdoms of kalamar or something?

[AvatarVecna]

Here's the link. (http://www.ravenoaks.org/jim/3da/files/LUCK_OF_THE_DRAW.PDF) Bottom right of page 2.

So, you know how Yu-gi-oh is basically "There's bad guys and instead of shooting them, I'm gonna challenge them to a card game, and that game will decide the fate of the world"? There's a feat for that, and it's based on Diplomacy checks.

[dysprosium]

Here's the link. (http://www.ravenoaks.org/jim/3da/files/LUCK_OF_THE_DRAW.PDF) Bottom right of page 2.

So, you know how Yu-gi-oh is basically "There's bad guys and instead of shooting them, I'm gonna challenge them to a card game, and that game will decide the fate of the world"? There's a feat for that, and it's based on Diplomacy checks.

I had no idea that Three Dragon Ante even had a web enhancement.

[Psyren]

Your monk can fight with no arms just fine in both 3.5 and PF. However, he will be unable to grapple as the rules for that do require free hands.

[Amidus Drexel]

Your monk can fight with no arms just fine in both 3.5 and PF. However, he will be unable to grapple as the rules for that do require free hands.

I'd say his hands are about as free as they can get, as he's definitely not using them for anything else. :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd say his hands are about as free as they can get, as he's definitely not using them for anything else. :smalltongue:

His hands are free from his own body.

[Oracle_of_Void]

In Pathfinder, you could be a Qinggong monk, take as many vows as possible then spam your spell-likes all day. Finish off with a dramatic divekick.

Also in Pathfinder, a single level dip in Bloodrager in the draconic bloodline. Every time you rage, you grow claws. No where does it say you need arms to grow claws. Don't ask me how it works, RAW does that to ya.

[Extra Anchovies]

In Pathfinder, you could be a Qinggong monk, take as many vows as possible then spam your spell-likes all day. Finish off with a dramatic divekick.

Also in Pathfinder, a single level dip in Bloodrager in the draconic bloodline. Every time you rage, you grow claws. No where does it say you need arms to grow claws. Don't ask me how it works, RAW does that to ya.

Qinggong makes for a good martial blaster, what with 1-ki scorching ray and the ability to break 30 ki without taking any of the bad vows (sticking only with truth, silence, cleanliness, fasting, and chains).

[AvatarVecna]

Qinggong makes for a good martial blaster, what with 1-ki scorching ray and the ability to break 30 ki without taking any of the bad vows (sticking only with truth, silence, cleanliness, fasting, and chains).

Depending on how you rule it, the "Ki Mystic" archetype can give even more ki points. You have a few less abilities, but you can use them that much more often, and items boosting Wisdom double their usual benefit in that regard. Assuming Wis 22 after items, a Qinggong Ki Mystic Monk 20 has 34 ki points to work with before ki-boosting items and vows.

Incidentally, I find your vow choices perplexing: you consider the "Chains" vow good, even though it gives a penalty to attack rolls, AC, and speed, yet you consider the "Chastity" vow bad, despite it having no mechanical downside. Even the RP downside is pretty tame, unless you spend most of your time playing monks picking up chicks in bars after beating up the rest of the patrons.

With a build so focused on the Qinggong spell abilities, I can understand why the "Cleanliness" vow is considered good, even though I wouldn't consider it to be so normally (a melee class that won't touch an entire creature type? That blows), but the "Fasting" vow? Those drawbacks aren't only on certain days, those are all the time; no potions, no drugs...how are you gonna become one with the universe without toking it up? In all seriousness, I would hope that, if you go down, your allies don't have to bypass your SR to heal you with spells as well as not feed you potions to heal you. Here's hoping monks don't die easily in combat.

Other than that, I agree: Vow of Truth and Silence, especially together, are both powerful and creative choices. Conversely, the Vow of Peace is a trap, and the Vow of Poverty is absolutely insulting; it's even worse than the 3.5 version, and that's saying something.

[Psyren]

Depending on how you rule it, the "Ki Mystic" archetype can give even more ki points. You have a few less abilities, but you can use them that much more often, and items boosting Wisdom double their usual benefit in that regard. Assuming Wis 22 after items, a Qinggong Ki Mystic Monk 20 has 34 ki points to work with before ki-boosting items and vows.

Unfortunately, Ki Mystic can't take any vows because both replace Still Mind. Drunken Master, another ki-boosting archetype, has the same issue.


I'd say his hands are about as free as they can get, as he's definitely not using them for anything else. :smalltongue:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3778956-wait+a+second.jpg

[AvatarVecna]

Unfortunately, Ki Mystic can't take any vows because both replace Still Mind. Drunken Master, another ki-boosting archetype, has the same issue.

Huh, I missed that part. Well, Qinggong with the vows he listed gets 30+Wis mod, while my build stub gets 22+(2*Wis mod). While my build is only better at 20th level if your Wis mod is 8 or higher, it also doesn't have all the vow penalties that the five-vow monk has. Of course, with the build we're talking about, would the person assigning stats really care about anything other than Wisdom, considering what the character's built to do is take advantage of ki-powered spells? Probably, but it would certainly be high.

[Extra Anchovies]

Incidentally, I find your vow choices perplexing: you consider the "Chains" vow good, even though it gives a penalty to attack rolls, AC, and speed, yet you consider the "Chastity" vow bad, despite it having no mechanical downside. Even the RP downside is pretty tame, unless you spend most of your time playing monks picking up chicks in bars after beating up the rest of the patrons.

-10 ft. speed means nothing to a monk, with their hilarious speed boost (a Vow of Chains monk can only sprint at 45 mi/hr). -1 attack and AC is definitely worth the 6 bonus ki; after all, that's the equivalent of three feats.

Chastity, on the other hand, has an atrocious mechanical penalty:

A celibate monk is not allowed to touch others or have others touch him (including touch spells from allies).
No Greater Magic Fang. No Barkskin. No Heal. No nothing.


With a build so focused on the Qinggong spell abilities, I can understand why the "Cleanliness" vow is considered good, even though I wouldn't consider it to be so normally (a melee class that won't touch an entire creature type? That blows), but the "Fasting" vow? Those drawbacks aren't only on certain days, those are all the time; no potions, no drugs...how are you gonna become one with the universe without toking it up? In all seriousness, I would hope that, if you go down, your allies don't have to bypass your SR to heal you with spells as well as not feed you potions to heal you. Here's hoping monks don't die easily in combat.

Regarding cleanliness: carry a monk weapon, or burn the feat/take a dip for proficiency with the wondrous Sansetsukon (two-handed monk-group weapon, y'all) and enjoy TWFing with your two-hander.

If a monk knowingly and willingly breaks his vow
Unconscious may = willing under the RAW, but unconscious =/= knowing. In fact, it = not knowing. So you can still have potions poured down your throat while bleeding out. Alternately, just trade away your SR, because burning a standard action to accept a spell is weaksauce. Fasting is only bad in a party with an alchemist or investigator, where drinking stuff happens a lot.


Other than that, I agree: Vow of Truth and Silence, especially together, are both powerful and creative choices. Conversely, the Vow of Peace is a trap, and the Vow of Poverty is absolutely insulting; it's even worse than the 3.5 version, and that's saying something.

Right on all three counts.

[AvatarVecna]

-10 ft. speed means nothing to a monk, with their hilarious speed boost (a Vow of Chains monk can only sprint at 45 mi/hr). -1 attack and AC is definitely worth the 6 bonus ki; after all, that's the equivalent of three feats.

Chastity, on the other hand, has an atrocious mechanical penalty:

No Greater Magic Fang. No Barkskin. No Heal. No nothing.



Regarding cleanliness: carry a monk weapon, or burn the feat/take a dip for proficiency with the wondrous Sansetsukon (two-handed monk-group weapon, y'all) and enjoy TWFing with your two-hander.

Unconscious may = willing under the RAW, but unconscious =/= knowing. In fact, it = not knowing. So you can still have potions poured down your throat while bleeding out. Alternately, just trade away your SR, because burning a standard action to accept a spell is weaksauce. Fasting is only bad in a party with an alchemist or investigator, where drinking stuff happens a lot.



Right on all three counts.

You make good points about Cleanliness and Chastity; as for Chains, I forgot to come into this with the understanding that I knew Monk was terrible and was taking it to 20 anyway. Under that mentality, The Vow of Chains is actually worth something, especially since you probably won't be getting into melee as often as most monks.

EDIT: That said, you must admit: there's a lot more support for unarmed monks than there is for armed monks (at least, in the usual sense of armed and unarmed, as opposed to this thread's example), so unless you also hyper-specialize at fighting with monk weapons that aren't unarmed strike, your melee combat abilities will be lower against undead, which can be problematic. Still, it probably doesn't come up too often.

[AvatarVecna]

Regarding cleanliness: carry a monk weapon, or burn the feat/take a dip for proficiency with the wondrous Sansetsukon (two-handed monk-group weapon, y'all) and enjoy TWFing with your two-hander.

Incidentally, I've found two ways of wielding just about any weapon you'd care to wield as a monk weapon; one even works for firearms! Well, the other could work hypothetically, but there's no support.

Firstly, the Sohei archetype grants Weapon Training, as the Fighter ability. Any weapon group they have WT in counts as monk weapons; example groups are bows, pole arms, and thrown weapons. Dip Fighter (Weapon Master), and due to the wording of the Sohei Weapon Training ability, the Fighter version (which doesn't have a limited list of weapons to work with) can make any single weapon you choose into a monk weapon with just 3 levels. Including firearms, elven curve blades, ballista...anything.

The other way is Crusader's flurry; it requires Channel Divinity, flurry of blows, and Weapon Focus (Deity's favored weapon); you can now flurry with your deity's favored weapon. My personal favorite is katana (both for the mechanics and the fluff), which will hold it's place until I find a deity with a firearm as their favored weapon, so I can make a gun-fu master!

[Extra Anchovies]

EDIT: That said, you must admit: there's a lot more support for unarmed monks than there is for armed monks (at least, in the usual sense of armed and unarmed, as opposed to this thread's example), so unless you also hyper-specialize at fighting with monk weapons that aren't unarmed strike, your melee combat abilities will be lower against undead, which can be problematic. Still, it probably doesn't come up too often.

You have a point there; the Sansetsukon (Three-section staff) is better on a Sacred Fist Warpriest, because they have access to fighter feats. I've got a Warpriest build around somewhere that uses Pummeling Style + Martial Versatility + Improved Critical to get some excellent pummeling in (seven attacks with a 2H weapon, times a 20% chance of scoring a threat after Improved Critical, means I'll be able to get a crit most of the time, with Pummeling Style all of the damage is totaled and then doubled, and with a 2H weapon that will be a lot of damage). The fact that I get pounce from Pummeling Charge is just a side benefit :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

You have a point there; the Sansetsukon (Three-section staff) is better on a Sacred Fist Warpriest, because they have access to fighter feats. I've got a Warpriest build around somewhere that uses Pummeling Style + Martial Versatility + Improved Critical to get some excellent pummeling in (seven attacks with a 2H weapon, times a 20% chance of scoring a threat after Improved Critical, means I'll be able to get a crit most of the time, with Pummeling Style all of the damage is totaled and then doubled, and with a 2H weapon that will be a lot of damage). The fact that I get pounce from Pummeling Charge is just a side benefit :smalltongue:

Bolded for emphasis: when your melee build gains pounce, and considers it to be icing on the cake, instead of the whole buffet, it's either doing something very wrong, or very right.

[Milodiah]

You have a point there; the Sansetsukon (Three-section staff) is better on a Sacred Fist Warpriest, because they have access to fighter feats. I've got a Warpriest build around somewhere that uses Pummeling Style + Martial Versatility + Improved Critical to get some excellent pummeling in (seven attacks with a 2H weapon, times a 20% chance of scoring a threat after Improved Critical, means I'll be able to get a crit most of the time, with Pummeling Style all of the damage is totaled and then doubled, and with a 2H weapon that will be a lot of damage). The fact that I get pounce from Pummeling Charge is just a side benefit :smalltongue:

Mind you, this fellow has no arms.

[Oracle_of_Void]

I would like to add that it would be unbelievably ironic and hilarious if this arm-less monk specialized in the disarm maneuver. Just imagine it, this monk just spin kicks your sword out of your hand and yells "Haha! You have been... disarmed!"

[Milodiah]

I would like to add that it would be unbelievably ironic and hilarious if this arm-less monk specialized in the disarm maneuver. Just imagine it, this monk just spin kicks your sword out of your hand and yells "Haha! You have been... disarmed!"

+4d6 damage to enemy pride, no save.

This is going in the build now.

[Astralia123]

Is it because it is not dumb enough that no one mentions Kensai...?

You can enchant your legs to become magical weapons and you can get some cool (or dumb, if you so wish) stuff with it.


I guess you don't really need advice to optimize with magical weapons, but if you want it to be dumber, I would suggest some items in Savage Species. Say, Gloves of Man allows you use unusual limbs as if it is hand (it is not exactly RAW but it looks so...fantastic). Necklace of Natural Weapons is another option next to being a Kensai; you can even enchant your natural weapons with Throwing and Returning special features.


Hmm... Maybe you can make one of your legs into a dancing weapon?

[Extra Anchovies]

Mind you, this fellow has no arms.

Mouthpick three-section staff, then :smallbiggrin:


Say, Gloves of Man allows you use unusual limbs as if it is hand (it is not exactly RAW but it looks so...fantastic).

Reminds me of that Sebulba guy from Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. He's the podracer who has legs where his arms should be and vice versa.

[Darrin]

I'd probably start with something like...

Race: Human or Azurin
1) Monk 1. Feat: Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws. Bonus: IUS, Power Attack (Overwhelming Attack variant), Human: Leap of the Heavens
2) Monk 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush (Overwhelming Attack variant)
3) Monk 3. Feat: Travel Devotion.
4) Monk 4.
5) Monk 5.
6) Monk 6. Feat: Open Least Chakra (Hands), Bonus: Improved Trip.
7) Monk 7.
8) Fighter 1. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
9) Fighter 2. Feat: Mantis Leap. Bonus: Versatile Unarmed Strike.

Grrrr. Why are all the kick-related feats not Fighter Bonus feats? I can't quite get Leap Attack in there before 12th, and I'd like to throw in Roundabout Kick and Flying Kick. Could probably use a couple levels of Totemist, maybe Warblade too.

Anyway. Mantis Leap turns any "normal Jump check" (their words, not mine) into a Charge attack. Sphinx Claws gets us Pounce with natural weapons, then add in the usual Ubercharger shenanigans.

[Bonzai]

Howdy, Playground!

If you haven't heard, I operate on the Principle of Diminishing Backups- I'm working on filling out twenty characters to pull from as they die...but, if I end up with a DM who is so bloodthirsty that five of my characters die without me deliberately doing something idiotic, each character beyond five is increasingly stupider until the DM realizes that each time he strikes me down, I become dumber than he could possibly imagine. Number six is an alcoholic sorcerer with state-dependent memory syndrome...number twenty is a self-animating psionic globster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globster).

One character I'm currently working on is, as the title says, a monk with no arms who kicks ass in spite of possessing neither arms nor caster levels. However, I want this one to be combat capable (read "optimized") in order to contrast his apparent uselessness.

So, Playground...how could I best optimize a dude with no arms, barring casting or psionics?

Tentative race is catfolk, but for no real reason. Initial level is 10, but feel free to go above and beyond to provide a leveling path. And finally, feel free to draw from any and all sources you want, even homebrew...this is more or less just an exercise in absurdity.


Bonus points if you can give this armless chap a viable ranged attack!

I applaud your idea. I have also started making a few silly characters for special occasions. I'll share a few for fun. Maybe it will give you some inspiration to help you reach 20.

1. Greta, Mongrel folk Totemist 2/Druid 1/Animal Companion variant wizard 1/animal companion variant sorcerer 1/Beastmaster 10/ Totemist 5.

She is the "Crazy Cat Lady". With Wild Cohort she will have 8 animal companion cats. None of which are that great, but she will use the share soulmeld feat to improve their effectiveness. Role play wise, she will never refer to herself as a person. Instead each cat will represent a different aspect of her personality, and she will project herself through them. For example, one cat represents her aggression; "Mr. Tickles doesn't like you..... no he does not!".

2. Payne, Human Harbinger variant bard 5/Dirge Singer 10/Bard 5

Payne is a 17 year old "Emo" bard. Dark clothes, dark hair that he is constantly flipping, and an apathetic attitude. His songs are derivative and depressing, and even the undead find them painful to listen to. He uses debuffs and the doom speak feat to debilitate his opponents. Mostly singing about the futility of it all.

3. Tappan, Azurian Incarnate 20.

Tappan is a metro sexual man who fully believes in accessorizing for success. The right wardrobe change can spell the difference between victory and defeat. Therefore he will always do his best to have the right meld for the job (and outfit).

[Milodiah]

Thank you!


In return I will share #15. He is a half-ogre bard who is named Pokey-Man...every single aspect of his build has been squeezed to the last foot of reach with a longspear. I am now at 45 feet and counting.

Just imagine it. The half-ogre with creepy tentacle arms starts singing a song that totally non-suggestively lengthens the spear, stands on his tippy-toes, and streeeeeetches his arms all the way over the melee and stabs the enemy archer in the face.

Pretty much like this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hFTR6qyEo&feature=player_detailpage#t=93)

[unbutu]

I've laughed enough for my abs to hurt.

Just wanted to share :)