Cavalier Stickiness

[Flik9999]

Hey guys I know cavaliers suck at being sticky. However powers such as Ardent strike use Divine sanction which is the good old fashioned mark. So my plan is to simply make that penalty for ignoring so high that will probably miss if they do not attack me. So Far I have.

Hand of Radiance (Half Elf Dillete)
Defender Dabbling (Mark with Hand of Radiance)
Crusader Expertise (Use Hand of Radiance in melee)
Mark of Warding (Mark Penalty increases to -3)
Group Defence (Mark Penalty increases to -4, with mark of Warding)

What else is around to help me either improve defender aura or get that marked penalty higher?

[Yakk]

At this point here, aren't you a not-cavalier?

Ie, you aren't using your cavalier class features to be a defender.

[Kurald Galain]

Hey guys I know cavaliers suck at being sticky.

Good. So why not play a real paladin? It has the exact same fluff as the cavalier, and while the paladin is a very effective class, the cavalier is decidedly not.

[Inevitability]

Good. So why not play a real paladin? It has the exact same fluff as the cavalier, and while the paladin is a very effective class, the cavalier is decidedly not.

But... but... Then you won't get a dragon mount! :smallfrown:

[Kurald Galain]

But... but... Then you won't get a dragon mount! :smallfrown:

Why not? I'm pretty sure you can buy them from the AV :smallsmile:

[GPuzzle]

Even if you want a simple defender with similar fluff, a Knight can usually work the same way if you go down the Anointed Knight path.

[Laserlight]

What else is around to help me either improve defender aura or get that marked penalty higher?

The paladin class.

[VeliciaL]

If you're dead set on the Cavalier mount, think about asking your DM to allow you to take Summoned Steed as a Paladin utility at level 6.

That said, I've always figured the most "optimal" way to play a Cavalier was as a mounted charger. You're largely ignoring defending at that point, though...

[Sol]

Hey guys I know cavaliers suck at being sticky. However powers such as Ardent strike use Divine sanction which is the good old fashioned mark. So my plan is to simply make that penalty for ignoring so high that will probably miss if they do not attack me. So Far I have.

Hand of Radiance (Half Elf Dillete)
Defender Dabbling (Mark with Hand of Radiance)
Crusader Expertise (Use Hand of Radiance in melee)
Mark of Warding (Mark Penalty increases to -3)
Group Defence (Mark Penalty increases to -4, with mark of Warding)

What else is around to help me either improve defender aura or get that marked penalty higher?

The core conceit of this build doesn't work. Divine Sanction punishment doesn't trigger on generic marks, such as those imposed by Defending Dabbler. It only applies to marks that specifically say "the target is subject to your Divine Sanction", such as from Ardent Strike.

Seconded on just asking your DM to let you take the fancy mount as a paladin. The cavalier is a huge liability to the party, contributing nothing meaningful other than, "I have a cool mount!"

[Zaq]

The Guardian theme lets you punish one attack against your allies per encounter, no mark needed. It's a solid choice for anyone who likes making extra attacks anyway, and it's doubly nice if you need more stickiness. Also, damn near every character with a decent MBA can benefit from taking the (MC Fighter) feat Battle Awareness, which also lets you punish one shift or one attack against your allies per encounter, no mark needed.

Cavaliers still suck at defending, of course, and if you can get away with swapping your class to be a true Paladin or a different defender, you're going to be better off for it. But Guardian and Battle Awareness are a pretty nice band-aid.

[Yakk]

So, patch the class.

Cavalier.

Add Holy Symbol proficiency (I think they lacked it?)

Holy Smite modification: no action. On a hit, your defender aura radius increases to 2 until the end of your next turn.

Righteous Radiance rewrite to:
Opportunity Action
Trigger: A creature subject to your defender aura makes an attack that does not include a creature applying a defender aura to them, or shifts or moves further away from you.
Attack: Level+5 vs Will
Hit: Target is immobilized until the end of its turn
Effect: 3+Charisma damage+holy symbol implement bonus. Increase to 6/9 base damage at paragon/epic.

(note: power does not have implement keyword).

Blessed Weapon added feature:
If you have a magical Holy Symbol equipped, as a minor action you can bless a weapon you have equipped. The enhancement bonus and magical properties of the holy symbol enchantment apply to weapon attacks instead of any enchantments or magical properties on the weapon until someone else uses the weapon, or you use this ability again.

...

There. Stickiness (radiance causes immobalize on hit), battle field control with a holy-smite boosted defender aura, and blessed weapon for some fun flavor.

Note that Radiance has a flat to-hit chance (no item or stat modifiers) as making it Str is silly and Cha forces too much into Cha for a Str-attack class.

Still probably runs into problems if not charge-cheesed at higher levels.

[GPuzzle]

My feedback on it?

This is a pretty sweet for non-optimizers, it's a simple class that will get people to stay close with a good amount of ease. For optimizers, it's an extremely sticky class that can get to stupidly OP levels if you can get a Ring of Radiant Storm, Mark of Storm, all slide modifiers you can tack onto a class and Morninglord.

But all in all it looks pretty fun.

[Flik9999]

The reason I went with cavalier is because I am actually a hybrid Avenger|Cavalier. Cavaliers defender aura is slightly better than divine challenge and I still have access to O Paladin powers.

I am searching for ways to maximise the generic mark penalty to make them want to attack me anyway because the penalty would be so high.

[GPuzzle]

Bad synergy, and very bad one at that. Cavalier's Defender Aura doesn't compare to the Paladin's Divine Sanctions and Divine Challenges because of how much you can stack on top of them. Stats don't match, and it's a Wis/Cha combo. The only time I've seen Wis/Cha work was with a Bard|Cleric using Bows to get good enabling, buffing and healing and excellent disabling for an interesting Controleader.

[VeliciaL]

Bad synergy, and very bad one at that. Cavalier's Defender Aura doesn't compare to the Paladin's Divine Sanctions and Divine Challenges because of how much you can stack on top of them. Stats don't match, and it's a Wis/Cha combo. The only time I've seen Wis/Cha work was with a Bard|Cleric using Bows to get good enabling, buffing and healing and excellent disabling for an interesting Controleader.

I suppose a better question then might be if there are any defenders that hybrid better with an Avenger...

[GPuzzle]

I suppose a better question then might be if there are any defenders that hybrid better with an Avenger...

Well, for starters, Fighter.

First, you can get an MBA that can trigger your Striker feature (not the damage one, though), and it's a pretty good one at that.

Second, the Avenger has a few powers that can work as a minor action, and the Fighter has a bunch of powers that can deal some good damage. The synergy is pretty good.

Third, you can mark with your Oath of Emnity (no, seriously!) via a feat.

It's a lot more synergistic in terms of stats than Cavalier|Avenger.

[Dimers]

I suppose a better question then might be if there are any defenders that hybrid better with an Avenger...

Those that like Wisdom, generally speaking -- fighter, battlemind, warden, standard paladin. While most forumgoers recognize that warden is a weak choice for a defender, I'd like to point out the stat synergy in this case. A single expenditure of Hybrid Talent for a hybrid warden gets you hide armor, heavy shields, Wisdom replacing Dex/Int for lightly-armored AC, Wisdom-keyed build-specific riders in powers, and a Wisdom-keyed benefit when you use second wind. Wisdom does little for a hybrid of the other defender classes. Running off Wisdom + Strength, the hybrid avenger|warden also doesn't have to blow a feat on getting a decent MBA.

[GPuzzle]

Stat synergy certainly fits but the real problem lies in the fact that either the Avenger will lack its usual Striker abilities or the Warden will lose its defending power - all in all, just a case of bad stat mismatch. Fighter, on the other hand, is an extremely agressive Defender (Rain of Blows, Jackal Strike) that can pair up really nicely with the Avenger in the sense that the Avenger provides an MBA that triggers the Striker ability and some good minor action attacks, besides the ability to mark without using a Fighter power.

[Sol]

Hybrid cavalier is actually substantially better than non-hybrid cavalier, because you can just take all normal paladin powers, but it has almost no synergy with an avenger whatsoever. Aura defenders work best when surrounded by enemies -- especially if they can keep those enemies there (which the cavalier cannot), while the Avenger striker mechanic only works when you have exactly one enemy adjacent to you.

You could potentially do something kind of cool with an INT/WIS retribution or unity avenger | assault swordmage, but even that wouldn't be so much a defender as using aegis of assault for more out of turn Attacks. With Power of Skill you could use Overwhelming Strike for them, and Dimensional Vortex would be a relatively obvious SM encounter power pick, and Mighty Crusader Expertise would prevent it from provoking.

Cavalier punishment is much stronger if you go morninglord, but that doesn't come online until 16, and avengers don't attack multiple creatures, so really, Avenger|cav is not a good build.

[Kimera757]

But... but... Then you won't get a dragon mount! :smallfrown:

Can you steal cavalier class abilities? I know the fighter can steal some knight abilities with a cross-training feat, or maybe it's the other way around.

(Speaking of which, the last 4e game I was in as a player had a fighter with the knight's amazing Threatening Glower power. But is that actually legal? The player in question used to cheat in my last game, one reason I tossed him out.)

I don't allow hybrids in my game, and this is one reason why: being able to take more than one role, and being convinced that it's a good idea. (Hybrids, like most newer 4e options, are weaker than the originals, not stronger.)

[masteraleph]

Can you steal cavalier class abilities? I know the fighter can steal some knight abilities with a cross-training feat, or maybe it's the other way around.

(Speaking of which, the last 4e game I was in as a player had a fighter with the knight's amazing Threatening Glower power. But is that actually legal? The player in question used to cheat in my last game, one reason I tossed him out.)

I don't allow hybrids in my game, and this is one reason why: being able to take more than one role, and being convinced that it's a good idea. (Hybrids, like most newer 4e options, are weaker than the originals, not stronger.)

You mean Glowering Threat? Yeah, totally legal (it's a Fighter Utility 2). Probably the best choice for most fighters, actually.

Edit: And hybrids can be plenty fine in strength, as long as the goal is to make one role more powerful rather than splitting them. Cavalier hybrids are solid until Epic, particularly when done with another defender class that doesn't care about its own named mark- hybrid with a Battlemind to toss around Divine Sanctions and then use the Battlemind's Lightning Rush to punish additionally, or with a Fighter, if you have ways to DS as a utility (Paladins do better in Epic as a hybrid due to Weakening Challenge). Avengers can do decently as strikers if hybrided, particularly with Executioner. In general, though, trying to fulfill multiple roles just doesn't work that well (Cleric|Invoker is decent at controlling and the healing side of leading, and Paladin|Warlord can split its duties without losing too much).

[Tegu8788]

That's the trick with hybrids. You can do parts of two roles, but you can't fully cover two roles by yourself. Being a fifth man is a great place for a hybrid. Knowing what you are going into can make all the difference. The absolute best now are hybrids I believe, but the optimization ceiling being high doesn't often balance out the incredible lows that they have.

[Kurald Galain]

That's the trick with hybrids. You can do parts of two roles, but you can't fully cover two roles by yourself. Being a fifth man is a great place for a hybrid.

For any hybrid build that "works best as a fifth man", I find that having an actual dedicated striker makes a better fifth man. Really, "fifth man" is not a valid party role.

[Flik9999]

Thanks for the response guys. Unfortunatly I am not able to change any aspects of my character such as class and am stuck with this half and half guy. Now what can I do to patch up these weaknesses?

[Kurald Galain]

Thanks for the response guys. Unfortunatly I am not able to change any aspects of my character such as class and am stuck with this half and half guy. Now what can I do to patch up these weaknesses?

Paladin counts as the same class as cavalier, though.

[Tegu8788]

Paladin powers sure, but it sounds like he's stuck with features.

This is going to be tricky. Do your best to get a solid MBA, preferably an Avenger one to try and reroll more often. Instead of merging two classes together, what you'll likely be able to do is switch hit. Spend some time as an Avenger, and some time as a Cavelier. Your Cavelier features aren't horrible, they just aren't helpful. Paladin powers that hand out Divine Sanctions are good, but your low Cha will hurt that.

Can you tell us what the rest of your party is? I can't think of any way to really boost the Avenger with the Cavalier, unless there is a hole in your team.

[Flik9999]

I am half Cav/Avenger CHA/WIS build, My Dillete is hand of radiance.

We have
2 Warlords
1 Avenger
1 Ranger (Bow)

I wanted to play an avenger but no tank so I slapped Cavalier on as I figured it takes less resources to just slap up defender aura than spend minor actions marking.

[bloodshed343]

Switch cha for strength. Take the battle awareness feat to MC fighter. Take kensei as your paragon path with a greatspear or flail. Use either pole arm shenanigans or flail shenanigans for proning with your overwhelming strike.

Choose either off action attacks or attacks that slide multiple enemies for your encounter powers. I'm not completely familiar with avenger or paladin encounter powers, but I know paladin has good str based weapon attacks. Fighter has some good encounters that might be worth swapping for, notably rain of blows. But at-will proning is fantastic for defending.

Consider picking up some part of the charge package by paragon. You'll need to go full on charge cheese by epic or switch your dilettante to twin strike and abuse vulnerabilities/go critical fishing.

[bloodshed343]

Another good paragon path would be Son of Mercy, but defender is the least important role and you're better off going striker by paragon. Most pure defenders get better by becoming strikers.