What is Charisma's "force of personality"

[RoboEmperor]

It's been bothering me for a few days and I've got to ask.
I want to put points in charisma, but here's the thing.


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness

This character is very attractive, but has no leadership skills, and is very anti-social as in she almost never talks. So due to her lack of leadership her other parts of charisma have to make up for it. I need to know what force of personality is so I can determine if that can lead to high persuasiveness and personal magnetism.

Is force of personality eccentricity? Like a child's eccentric personality eventually overcomes other children and they play a game the child wants to play? You know like when adults deal with this kind of child they got "That kid's quite the character"

Is it stubbornness? In the above case, the child is so stubborn and tries all sort of manipulative techniques (like holding her breath, fake tears, blackmail, etc.) that constitutes force of personality?

It's not willpower because that's wisdom.

[Red Rubber Band]

Have you ever noticed that you're drawn to some people more than others? Before they open their mouth or do anything. Just meeting the person face to face and you're like, "Dayum."

Or when you have a discussion with someone (maybe about where you eat) and what they say seems like a great idea, but afterwards you want to punch yourself because you actually dislike the food there. But it seemed like such a great idea at the time.

It's just a thing that some people have.

Being attractive really doesn't hurt either. Also, if a person who has that magnetism rarely speaks, it could mean that when they do speak people will listen.

[Taveena]

The actual Force of Personality feat /makes/ it Willpower.

[Extra Anchovies]

Force of personality is the ability to say "Shut up! I'm talking!" and actually get everyone to shut up. It's a sort of personal gravitas.

[Telonius]

Part of the problem is that "physical attractiveness" is supposed to be a part of it. Physical attractiveness might help in some charisma-related skills, but (at least in my opinion) it really has no business being in the description. Even if someone looks like a troll, they can still be pretty charismatic. There are a few variant rules that explicitly shunt off physical attractiveness to its own stat, usually called "Comeliness" or "Appearance." Unless you get pretty deep into BoEF territory, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, but it does allow people to model the "beautiful airhead" or "charismatic but beaten with an uglystick" character ideas a bit more solidly.

[RoboEmperor]

So is it like, person A wants to watch movie A, person B wants to watch movie B, and in the end they watch the movie the one with the greater force of personality wanted to watch?

"I want to watch A"
"I want to watch B"
*GLARE AT EACH OTHER*
"... ok lets watch movie A"
"Thought so"

edit:
So for the character in question
*points to movie A*
"I want to watch movie B"
*Summons an elemental monolith*
"... ok lets watch movie A"
*grins happily*

[Forrestfire]

Force of personality is the ability to say "Shut up! I'm talking!" and actually get everyone to shut up. It's a sort of personal gravitas.

Personally, I always imagined it as a mix of this and killing intent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillingIntent) (sorry to link tvtropes, but it seemed the simplest way).

[Optimator]

A quick aside, the personality you're describing is non-social, not antisocial. If anything, those with antisocial personality disorder are the BEST talkers.

[Thealtruistorc]

Fluttershy is a great example of a quiet yet charismatic character. She doesn't actively try to alter the world around her but nonetheless commands a good degree of influence and presence.

[Calimehter]

Yeah, as 3.5 is set up, CHA encompasses both looks and 'force of personality'. Just like DEX encompasses both manual dexterity (Open Locks and the like) and full-body agility (AC boost) all in one stat. For those character concepts that want a lot of one thing from a particular stat but not another, it gets kind of tough. You basically have to go into other mechanics like feats and skills and things like that to further differentiate between two things that are covered by the same base stat.

The Traits from Unearthed Arcana are sometimes handy for teasing out the differences between concepts covered by the same base stat. The 'Honest' trait, for example, allows a character to have an (effectively) higher CHA for Diplomacy checks but not be quite as good at Bluffing. I didn't see a trait that applies to the problem the OP posted, but there is a sidebar in UA about designing your own Traits, and I think that something like that might help. You could play the gender angle (+1 on checks to those attracted to the character's gender, -1 to those who are not) or go a different route (+1 to diplomacy, -1 to Intimidate) depending on how you wanted to simulate the attractiveness of the character. The bonuses aren't very big, but they at least give you a bit of rules crunch to go along with your chosen fluff.

BoEF might have something like this already, but I (proudly? sadly? both?) have no familiarity with this book. :smalleek:

[toapat]

One of the wierd things about charisma is exactly how does it work.

Force of Personality basically means exactly how powerful your sense of "Self" is. things with 0 Cha dont understand they exist.

It also measures your ability to convince/endear other intelligent beings to you or your opinions.

typically it doesnt actually mean how beautiful someone is, because then Succubus would be the highest cha in the game, what with being desire demons.

[TheIronGolem]

The best expression of "force of personality" I've seen is the Reality Distortion Field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field).

[tomandtish]

Before I get started, the usual disclaimer. D&D has always had the problem that some of the characteristics in Charisma could arguably be attributed to other attributes (esp. INT or WIS). I agree. Let's assume that argument has been made, and just stick to the OP's question of trying to define the characteristics in terms of CHA.

And you may be flipping cause and effect. People who are said to have forceful personalities may be that way because they have high persuasiveness or personal magnetism, not that they have those things because they have a forceful personality.

You want a real life example to what you may be describing if you took out the "does not talk" part? Kim Kardashian (and I feel horrible for bringing this into a D&D discussion forum). But here's a person that through looks, a "leaked" sex tape, and some very clever business managers has turned her life into a billion dollar industry. Note that she doesn't run the business side of things. Her mom did for a while and now Kayne does. But somehow her personality is such that millions were watching her shows, millions will buy a product if she endorses it, and millions will buy any magazine that has an interview or pictures of her in it.

She's made a career… out of being Kim Kardashian. Nothing more. Where's the Snarl when you really need it….


In short, in the modern age the term is celebrity. In older times she might be a "personage". If your game allows female members of the nobility she could be a "court noble" (one with title but no land) who was given her title for any reason.

Your problem is that you've said she almost never talks. While attractiveness is a component of Charisma, it isn’t the only one or even the most important. At best it may influence a very initial reaction among members of a species likely to find her species attractive. Most of the other components do rely on talking to some extent.

But maybe her voice is also perfect, such that even without magic people want to listen to it. To steal from David Eddings…


He was awakened at the end of
the sermon by the voice of an angel. A
young knight with hair the colour of
butter and a neck like a marble column
lifted his clear tenor voice in a hymn of
praise. His face shone, and his eyes
were filled with adoration.

… ‘Who’s your tenor?’

‘Sir Parasim. He just won his
spurs.’

‘I don’t want to alarm you,
Vanion, but he’s too good for this
world.’

‘I know.’

‘God will probably call him
home very soon.’

‘That’s God’s business, isn’t it,
Sparhawk?’

‘Do me a favour, Vanion. Don’t
put me in a situation where I’m the one
who gets him killed.’

Alternatively maybe she says little but has a way of speaking to people (when she does speak) that makes everyone feel like she's talking just to them even when addressing large crowds. Maybe she comes across as so sincere that everyone wants to believe her (she just seems trustworthy).

The point is, it can mean whatever you and your DM decide to make it mean.

[RoboEmperor]

typically it doesnt actually mean how beautiful someone is, because then Succubus would be the highest cha in the game, what with being desire demons.

Succubus does have one of the highest CHA in the game XD
Then again Pit Fiends do too, and they're ugly.

[Raven777]

So is it like, person A wants to watch movie A, person B wants to watch movie B, and in the end they watch the movie the one with the greater force of personality wanted to watch?

"I want to watch A"
"I want to watch B"
*GLARE AT EACH OTHER*
"... ok lets watch movie A"
"Thought so"

In short? Yes.

If it helps, Undead are also held together by Charisma. In this regard, Charisma is willfulness. A Lich keeps on trucking beyond death because it burns too damn brightly to be snuffed out.
Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.

[RoboEmperor]

In short? Yes.

If it helps, Undead are also held together by Charisma. In this regard, Charisma is willfulness. A Lich keeps on trucking beyond death because it burns too damn brightly to be snuffed out.
Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.

I can work with that. Although doesn't talk, if she doesn't get her way, she'll do something to get her way, trivial or whatnot. She is very "willful" but has no willpower, so if something arduous comes along she'll get someone else to do it for her, by fake tears, threatening, blackmailing, getting help from another guy who then forces the original guy to do it for her. That's her personality, and it's strong i guess XD.

I think Force of Personality is how strongly you can assert yourself onto others. Could be through charms, could be through seduction, could be through manipulation.

A low charisma wizard may back down when a paladin glares at him, but then behind the paladin's back exact revenge, where as a high charismatic wizard could beat the paladin in the glare-down or otherwise do something to make the paladin back down then and there instead of plotting behind him.

[Raven777]

I can work with that. Although doesn't talk, if she doesn't get her way, she'll do something to get her way, trivial or whatnot. She is very "willful" but has no willpower, so if something arduous comes along she'll get someone else to do it for her, by fake tears, threatening, blackmailing, getting help from another guy who then forces the original guy to do it for her.

On that note, I always wondered why Will saves were based on Wisdom and not Charisma. Sure, some Will saves are based on discernment, like illusions and some enchantments, but a lot are based on straight out assertiveness to shrug off an effect and would be better modeled by Charisma...

[toapat]

Succubus does have one of the highest CHA in the game XD
Then again Pit Fiends do too, and they're ugly.

not one of the highest, THE highest without epic or divine ranks. This is not the case as for actual planar agents they are actually running mid-range Cha

[RoboEmperor]

On that note, I always wondered why Will saves were based on Wisdom and not Charisma. Sure, some Will saves are based on discernment, like illusions and some enchantments, but a lot are based on straight out assertiveness to shrug off an effect and would be better modeled by Charisma...

I think will saves are how much you can endure torture, or how long you can do a repetitive task, you know, stuff along the lines of pain. Conviction to faith and discipline sort of stuff. Super serious.

Charisma's "will" is everything not related to pain, like being a tease and getting other people to do the painful work for you. At least that's how I'm interpreting it.

Thanks guys I think I understand now.

[Extra Anchovies]

On that note, I always wondered why Will saves were based on Wisdom and not Charisma. Sure, some Will saves are based on discernment, like illusions and some enchantments, but a lot are based on straight out assertiveness to shrug off an effect and would be better modeled by Charisma...

You know, if you really want it to be, there's a feat for that. I've always seen the Wisdom to will saves as being based on self-control. Wisdom is awareness of the self, while Charisma is awareness of the world.

[Red Fel]

Let me see that I understand.

Does not lead. Does not deal well with people. Does not talk. Reasonably attractive. Extremely high Charisma.

So... Batman?

Seriously, there's your example, right there. Batman is a perfect example of a person with high Charisma and negative people skills. He says virtually nothing, but when he speaks everyone shuts up. He doesn't tell people what to do half the time; his glare is enough to motivate. He doesn't have to threaten his enemies for them to start wetting themselves.

Diplomacy and Perform aren't the only Charisma-based skills. Bluff is one, and doesn't have to involve speaking; it's your ability to convince others you're not being deceptive. You can do that with the appearance of sincerity, with focus in your movements, in any number of ways. Gather Information is your ability to learn what you need to know. Using the Batman example, a disapproving glare can get people to spill their guts. And I needn't go into the value of Intimidate, need I?

That's force of personality. The ability to get what you want, communicate what you need, accomplish what you desire, simply by having such a profound presence that the world rushes to accommodate.

Ideally out of pants-crapping terror.

[RoboEmperor]

That's intimidate not bluff. :P
But I see what you mean. A very quiet woman but with a super frightening stare would have people cater to her, like the daughter of your boss or the president.

I could work with that too.

[Raven777]

You know, if you really want it to be, there's a feat for that.

Is it a Pathfinder feat?

[Duke of Urrel]

I don't find it hard to keep Wisdom and Charisma separate. Both abilities have to do with will, but they each use willpower differently.

The willpower of Wisdom is purely defensive.* The willpower of Charisma is purely offensive (in the sense of being aggressive).* Think of Wisdom as armor and Charisma as a weapon.

A Charismatic character is very persuasive, but she may still be easy to deceive or to intimidate, unless she also has a high Wisdom score. A Wise character is not easy to deceive or intimidate, but she may still be incapable of persuading anyone to agree with her, unless she also has a high Charisma score.
________________________
*The exception to this general rule is of course the use of Wisdom to create divine magic, which may be either defensive or offensive, and the use of Charisma to create arcane magic, which also may be either defensive or offensive. The rule contrasting defensive use with offensive use applies only to mundane uses of Wisdom and Charisma.

[Bad Wolf]

I view The Doctor (from Doctor Who, to Non-Whovians) as being a perfect example, 11th in particular. He's not super attractive, but people tend to like him.



Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.

May I sig this?

[Duke of Urrel]

In the Discworld novels, Foul Ole Ron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_characters#Foul_Ole_Ron) is a successful beggar, because he is not only filthy and unpleasant to look at, but has such a horrible smell that people give him money so that he will go away.

I think some ugly creatures are Charismatic in this way. They know they're ugly, but they make their ugliness work for them. Charisma is, after all, a mental ability. It means the ability to use your appearance, whether pleasant, unpleasant, or somewhere in between, to your greatest possible advantage.

[Raven777]

May I sig this?

Go right ahead. :smallbiggrin:

[Extra Anchovies]

Is it a Pathfinder feat?

Force of Personality from Complete Adventurer.

[Jeff the Green]

So is it like, person A wants to watch movie A, person B wants to watch movie B, and in the end they watch the movie the one with the greater force of personality wanted to watch?

"I want to watch A"
"I want to watch B"
*GLARE AT EACH OTHER*
"... ok lets watch movie A"

Or possibly:

"I want to watch A"
"I want to watch B"
"Alright, you've convinced me."


I view The Doctor (from Doctor Who, to Non-Whovians) as being a perfect example, 11th in particular. He's not super attractive, but people tend to like him.

Oh great. Now you're going to get reams of hate mail from Matt Smith fangirls.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh great. Now you're going to get reams of hate mail from Matt Smith fangirls.

I don't like him or find him attractive. Now they'll come after me first. Regardless, how he's written is as a fairly high-Charisma character. He does a lot of the "shut up, I am talking" sort of thing and people almost always listen.

[Jeff the Green]

Great. Might as well just lock the thread now. :smalltongue:

But yeah, there's a reason the Doctor is frequently statted as a Factotum. He's got insanely high Intelligence, and very good Charisma and Constitution (after all, he gets lots of aerobics in and can will poison out of his body into his shoe), with dumped Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom.

[P.F.]

Before this thread gets locked, let me throw my thoughts in here.

Read "A Rose for Emily." That is the first thing I thought of when I read the phrase "force of personality." It doesn't take ten minutes to read, and is a masterpiece of Southern Gothic literature, and is in the public domain, widely available online. Sections I and III both include excellent examples of "force of personality" at work. Section II also pertains to that same concept, and she need not even be present for her personality to make itself felt. Her ability to impress herself upon others is quite independent of wisdom or intelligence; indeed, she is quite insane. Yet her insistent belief that others will bend to her intentions is so strong that, in fact, they do.

[drack]

Part of the problem is that "physical attractiveness" is supposed to be a part of it. Physical attractiveness might help in some charisma-related skills, but (at least in my opinion) it really has no business being in the description. Even if someone looks like a troll, they can still be pretty charismatic. There are a few variant rules that explicitly shunt off physical attractiveness to its own stat, usually called "Comeliness" or "Appearance." Unless you get pretty deep into BoEF territory, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, but it does allow people to model the "beautiful airhead" or "charismatic but beaten with an uglystick" character ideas a bit more solidly.

It can be, can not be. Attractive folks could have it by virtue of that alone as everyone stops to stare, but everyone will stare if your face is mutilated as well (as is often the case with undeads). It's a fuzzy (and often debated) line. :smallbiggrin:

[mashlagoo1982]

Part of the problem is that "physical attractiveness" is supposed to be a part of it. Physical attractiveness might help in some charisma-related skills, but (at least in my opinion) it really has no business being in the description. Even if someone looks like a troll, they can still be pretty charismatic. There are a few variant rules that explicitly shunt off physical attractiveness to its own stat, usually called "Comeliness" or "Appearance." Unless you get pretty deep into BoEF territory, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, but it does allow people to model the "beautiful airhead" or "charismatic but beaten with an uglystick" character ideas a bit more solidly.

One of the few things I took out of the BoEF is Appearance as a separate stat.

By itself, Appearance doesn't influence much in a core dnd game.
Fluff, it could influence NPC first-impressions or just their general behavior toward a PC.

Crunch, it only impacts 3 skills (Bluff, Gather Information and Intimidate).
These 3 skills still are still shared with Charisma, but it could be ruled that Appearance is the only effective modifier for a specific check.

I believe the various other areas in the BoEF make Appearance a more viable stat (for some classes it is important... I think).

[drack]

Yeah, but the stat as a whole is a variant of sorts, so charisma still is an element that plays into beauty in standard play.

[Ssalarn]

You know, if you really want it to be, there's a feat for that. I've always seen the Wisdom to will saves as being based on self-control. Wisdom is awareness of the self, while Charisma is awareness of the world.

Don't you have those backwards? Or maybe I'm just reading the intent of the words wrong.

Wisdom is your understanding of the world and your place in it.

Charisma is your ability to imprint yourself upon the world.

I've also never been a big fan of Charisma specifically including physical attractiveness in its description. For one thing, hags, pit fiends, and other hideous creatures all have super high charisma scores. For another, I find that sometimes physical attractiveness can undercut your personal charisma. I have a couple female friends who are very attractive and often find that their good looks make it hard for them to be taken seriously and successfully achieve whatever goal they're working towards. My friend Angelique is a doctor who actually goes through a ritual she refers to as "uglying up" before attending conferences because she feels that hiding behind unstyled hair and frumpy clothes actually makes it easier for her to get people to take her seriously.
Similarly, there's often a notable difference between models and actors/actresses; models tend to have that "almost too perfect" look, where actors/actresses tend to have some kind of flaw or characteristic that actual humanizes them and makes them more approachable or empathetic seeming. In social settings, many of the "too perfect" model-types have trouble actually engaging the people around them for an extended period of time, while many actors can "hold court" with a rapt audience for hours. Obviously there is some spill-over there, but I think most people would find that that is true more often than not.

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't you have those backwards? Or maybe I'm just reading the intent of the words wrong.

Wisdom is your understanding of the world and your place in it.

Charisma is your ability to imprint yourself upon the world.

Hm. That's a good point, I do think I had them backwards. Stupid mental ability scores, overlapping all over the place...

[ArqArturo]

Force of personality is the ability to say "Shut up! I'm talking!" and actually get everyone to shut up. It's a sort of personal gravitas.

And here it is, in action (http://youtu.be/Nn1v-wgNdBU).

[mashlagoo1982]

Yeah, but the stat as a whole is a variant of sorts, so charisma still is an element that plays into beauty in standard play.

I believe this was directed at me... if not I apologize.

Yeah, the stat is a variant and charisma does play into the "force of personality".

However, in my games, it has no impact on areas that are Appearance based.
It is all in how you run your game.

It just always bugged me that a person's looks and their personality were lumped into one stat.

Most of my players have no issue with it (oh goodie... another dump stat).

[drack]

well I tend to prioritize force of personality and let them fluff how it affects their looks. I generally don't let Cha 4 look like prince charming though.

[Milodiah]

Call of Cthulhu has an Appearance stat and not a Charisma stat, and the end result is Appearance is literally a dump stat with zero mechanical differences between having 3 and having 18...separating them in my opinion would just be splitting hairs, I've always thought a separate Perception stat would make more sense than a separate Appearance one.

Anyway, there is appearance, but there are plenty of exceptions to the point where it's very nearly not even the rule. I mean, seriously, not many people would consider Winston Churchill or Henry Kissinger 'hawt' but they were still rolling in the upper 10s for CHA. One thing that may help think about charisma is to recognize that the word 'charm' was derived from it.

[TypoNinja]

This is actually one of the things BoEF is good for. The split up Cha into two stats and add an Appearance score. Removes a bit of the confusion around the differing aspects of the Cha score.

[drack]

One thing that may help think about charisma is to recognize that the word 'charm' was derived from it.

That hag's sure got a sick sort of charm to her ay? :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

That hag's sure got a sick sort of charm to her ay? :smalltongue:

When I need an example of force of personality my go to example is usually Churchill. He was a bit of a ****, extremely crude at times, drunk often enough for it to be sterotypical, but famous for speeches, despite being born with a speech impediment. The man had presence.

[drack]

Not exactly the most hideous guy around though was he? :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Great. Might as well just lock the thread now. :smalltongue:

But yeah, there's a reason the Doctor is frequently statted as a Factotum. He's got insanely high Intelligence, and very good Charisma and Constitution (after all, he gets lots of aerobics in and can will poison out of his body into his shoe), with dumped Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom.

I don't know about dumping anything. He has a lot of traits, really.