War?

[montoya]

Well the time is coming in our campaign (PCs are level 17 now) that their keep they have been building up is about to get sieged. This would be the first time we have done anything like this, in the Heroes of Battle it seems to be for a lot of low level and mid level battles. How can this be made challenging for 17th level characters? The army of the keep is about 200 men.

[Douglas]

This depends a very great deal on what manner of magic is available to each side. If the party is all mundane characters, they may have some nifty tricks but mostly it's just scaling up numbers. If the party includes a wizard and cleric capable of such things as Wish, Miracle, Gate, Shapechange, etc., conventional strategies will be nearly useless and you'll have to get creative to threaten them.

[Andezzar]

Why will the castle be under siege and by whom? If one or both sides will have level 17+ tier 1 casters, there probably won't even be a siege as either side can just use scry and die tactics unless the other side defends against it.
Just lots of low level opponents won't be a challenge, but a minor nuisance instead.

[heavyfuel]

Yeah, siegeing with Catapults won't work. Your players may have a challenge posed to them if you throw in a few CR 14 to 16 Dragons at them or any other creature that can Siege really well. Becomes especially dangerous if the Dragons are played smartly, as they should be. (Scintiliating Scales, Metabreath feats, coordination to focus fire)

[Zakerst]

Demons/Devils would work
Chain gated Titans are likely over kill but that'd do it.
Having a "man on the inside" might help (nothing like having your keep full of enemy rogues)
Getting some MoBs with class levels out there might help (war hulk)
Dragon support is always nice
Give the enemy dragon fire inspiration from bards with alphorns
How safe do they feel from mind flayers with class levels?
Really things with teleportation might be one of your better options
On the high side the emerald legion is built for this kind of thing http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques


all that said if they've built their keep like some of the more optimized ones you see floating around here there's not much to be done as the advantage will nearly always lay with the defenders

[drack]

Put a few heroes in the opposition. You'll see that HoB rules like the mass combat archery rules allow one solid archer to boost the efficacy of his whole unit. Also use dirty tricks like putting the commander that's boosting their attack mod in the line of guys behind that one guy who wears different armor in front of the archers. In truth, your swarm of level 1s are just cannon fodder, it's the elites that'll give them trouble. Even a couple of clever level 5 casters can effect the outcome.

[Amphetryon]

Well the time is coming in our campaign (PCs are level 17 now) that their keep they have been building up is about to get sieged. This would be the first time we have done anything like this, in the Heroes of Battle it seems to be for a lot of low level and mid level battles. How can this be made challenging for 17th level characters? The army of the keep is about 200 men.

At 17th level, the keep would need to be under siege from Extraplanar forces, if not a Dragon, in order to make the challenge seem appropriate to the characters. At that level of play, characters are capable of dealing with threats on a world-level, so the attack on the keep would need to be part of such a global (assuming the world in which you play resembles a globe) threat in order to make it reasonably scaled.

[Andezzar]

If it is a threat of global significance, the question that needs to be answered is why would the threat concern itself with a veritable strongpoint of the setting instead of achieving whatever their goal is as far away from the PCs' stronghold or other significant resistance as possible.

[montoya]

The threat would most likely come from Thay (we are playing in Faerun). The party consists of a Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, and FB. All of which are 17th level. The reason would be likely because the party possess powerful artifacts that come from the Gods. And of course Thay wants them.

[drack]

Oh yeah, totally throw some elites in there. 17th level red wizard anyone? :smallamused: Some nice battlefield based magic to reanimate the dead, empower the living, or break down any obstacle in the army's way while they rain fire and lightening from the skies? :smalltongue: Perhaps a level 17... what are they, purple knights or somesuch? The PRC that defends red wizards. Throw in some level 5-15s too so that the party still feels outnumbered by foes that can't be taken out in just one metier strike. :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Oh yeah, totally throw some elites in there. 17th level red wizard anyone? :smallamused: Some nice battlefield based magic to reanimate the dead, empower the living, or break down any obstacle in the army's way while they rain fire and lightening from the skies? :smalltongue: Perhaps a level 17... what are they, purple knights or somesuch? The PRC that defends red wizards. Throw in some level 5-15s too so that the party still feels outnumbered by foes that can't be taken out in just one metier strike. :smallbiggrin:

do you mean thayan knights?

if you want dragons, throw in some wearers of purple. they're hilarious.

[Sith_Happens]

Two words: Dominated Tarrasque. Not actually a major problem, but if your players don't know that (and many don't) they'll be crapping their pants nonetheless.

[drack]

do you mean thayan knights?

if you want dragons, throw in some wearers of purple. they're hilarious.

Yup, man, I was off by a good bit there... :smalleek:

[Venger]

Yup, man, I was off by a good bit there... :smalleek:

it's cool, there's a lot of thay classes. 3.0 in general had a problem with naming stuff in a non-confusing way. this is the one from complete warrior (the most recent one since it's a reprint from lords of darkness) it's the one with the woman rocking the skrillex haircut

[drack]

Yup, that's the one, though I put two to two when I read the name. I tend to remember them by their tattoo.