[5e] So, what's the best Warrior Mage build thus far?

[andhaira]

There is the obvious Eldritch Knight fighter subclass.

What else? I am looking for max possible fighting capability (aka number of attacks) along with max possible spellcasting capability of wizard or sorcerer spells. Will also settle for warlock spells.

[Finieous]

War Cleric 9/Eldritch Knight 11. But only if you'll "settle" for cleric spells. ;)

[Easy_Lee]

Bards with swiftquiver have full spell casting and as many attacks as a max-level ranger.

[Z3ro]

Fighter 11 (any) / Sorcerer 9 captures the warrior/mage build very well. It gives you three attacks, and lets you use quicken to cast any spell while making all your attacks, in addition to giving you a bunch of sorcerer goodies.

[MaxWilson]

If you happen to roll the stats for it, I really enjoy the concept of an Eldritch Knight (3), then Warlock (2), then Eldritch Knight (4-7), then Necromancer (6), finishing up with Eldritch Knight (8-11) and Necromancer(7). You get your second attack at level 5, your third attack at level 9, your fourth attack at level 11, and by level 15 you have a whole slew of minion meat shields, unlimited access to all wizard schools (including cool stuff like Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress). You can spend your last five levels any way you want actually, including heading up to Necromancer 11 if you want sixth level spells, but since I like the idea of a fighter-mage more than a fighter-mage I like getting a third weapon attack (for Helmed Horrors, long-range combat, etc.) and Eldritch Strike.

[Easy_Lee]

If you happen to roll the stats for it, I really enjoy the concept of an Eldritch Knight (3), then Warlock (2), then Eldritch Knight (4-7), then Necromancer (6), finishing up with Eldritch Knight (8-11) and Necromancer(7). You get your second attack at level 5, your third attack at level 9, your fourth attack at level 11, and by level 15 you have a whole slew of minion meat shields, unlimited access to all wizard schools (including cool stuff like Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress). You can spend your last five levels any way you want actually, including heading up to Necromancer 11 if you want sixth level spells, but since I like the idea of a fighter-mage more than a fighter-mage I like getting a third weapon attack (for Helmed Horrors, long-range combat, etc.) and Eldritch Strike.

Extra attack doesn't stack. Also, some DMs won't allow you to take warlock invocations with level requirements until you have that many warlock levels.

[SliceandDiceKid]

If you happen to roll the stats for it, I really enjoy the concept of an Eldritch Knight (3), then Warlock (2), then Eldritch Knight (4-7), then Necromancer (6), finishing up with Eldritch Knight (8-11) and Necromancer(7). You get your second attack at level 5, your third attack at level 9, your fourth attack at level 11, and by level 15 you have a whole slew of minion meat shields, unlimited access to all wizard schools (including cool stuff like Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress). You can spend your last five levels any way you want actually, including heading up to Necromancer 11 if you want sixth level spells, but since I like the idea of a fighter-mage more than a fighter-mage I like getting a third weapon attack (for Helmed Horrors, long-range combat, etc.) and Eldritch Strike.

This is so wrong, it hurts.

[silveralen]

There is the obvious Eldritch Knight fighter subclass.

What else? I am looking for max possible fighting capability (aka number of attacks) along with max possible spellcasting capability of wizard or sorcerer spells. Will also settle for warlock spells.

Well... your definition of best fighting capability isn't 100% accurate. Having a higher number of attacks is good, but not the be all end all. A few suggestions though:

1.) Eldritch knight 11/sorcerer 9

You have 3 attacks per round, action surge, have lvl 5 spells, lvl 6 slots, and have font of magic to cast extra spells. With haste you can get four attacks per round, so you stay pretty even with a single class fighter, only falling behind one who has a caster buffing them, one who uses action surge, or a single class eldritch knight.

The downsides are limited high level spell access and a fair amount of MAD (needing at least decent scores in 4/6). For that reason 12/8 might work better, though you lose some spell access.

As for sorcerer over wizard, the reasoning is primarily quickened spell. This is effectively a better version of war magic with a slight cost in sorcery points. The gish functions dramatically better with this ability to fall back on. The fact sorcerer gains his damage boost at 6 rather than 10 is another point in his favor.

2. Fighter 5/sorcerer 15

You lose an attack, an ability increase, but gain access to 8th level spells, 9 level slots, and more sorcerers points. Not an awful trade.

3. Paladin 6/sorcerer 14

Same as the above fighter/sorcerer, except with smiting to help in melee combat and no 8th level spells. How big a deal that is depends on you. You go 6 rather than 5 to grab aura of protection to primarily help concentration saves, though the bonuses to other saves are worth consideration. Less MAD as well, and if you do point buy or got exceptional rolls you can potentially grab resilient (con) instead, allowing for 5/15.

4. Fighter 1/Paladin 2/ Warlock 17

This one works best if you can smite with warlock spells slots. RAW you don't seem to be able to, but it was clarified to be unintentional by designers so YMMV, ask your DM. If he is a stickler for RAW replace the two levels of paladin with two additional levels of fighter (for action surges and BM manuevers).

If you can do so and don't mind a more restricted spell list, it's a solid choice. You have 9th level spells, two attacks per round, extra damage based on charisma, constitution saves, and smites.

Arguably losing the ability to smite and gaining action surges and manuevers is a net gain, as they don't eat into spell slots allowing for more casting.

Overall not my favorite build, it is missing haste for one and requires a few too many rests to really keep up with others, but it might be to someone's liking.

5.) Eldritch knight 5/wizard (abjuration) 15

Most of these builds are focused on damage since that seemed to be how you judged martial prowess, but these seemed worth mentioning as great tanking builds.

Your arcane ward and projected ward abilities allow you to protect your teammates in a very direct way, your counterspells and dispel magic can shut down an enemy caster very well, and you yourself are incredibly resistant to enemy magic.

So that's a handful of builds I've looked at, I haven't gotten to test any thoroughly so I can't speak to their power,

[MaxWilson]

Extra attack doesn't stack. Also, some DMs won't allow you to take warlock invocations with level requirements until you have that many warlock levels.

This build doesn't rely on either of those kinds of cheese.

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, (whatever). Both are available at 2nd level.

5th level (F3W2): Eldritch Blast x2
9th level (F7W2): Eldritch Blast x2 + Weapon Attack
11th level (F7W2N2): Eldritch Blast x3 + Weapon Attack
17th level (F9W2N6 or similar): Eldritch Blast x4 + Weapon Attack

Thus, 5 attacks, one of which is a weapon attack. Has nothing to do with stacking Extra Attack features.


This is so wrong, it hurts.

I choose to interpret that as a compliment. Thank you.

Note that there are heavy stat requirements--this is the sort of build you use when you happen to roll an array like 18, 16, 16, 14, 13, 11 and are wondering what to do with it. You could get away with only CHA but the build works much, much better if you have DEX, CHA, CON, and INT, although only CHA is really essential to max.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Well... your definition of best fighting capability isn't 100% accurate. Having a higher number of attacks is good, but not the be all end all. A few suggestions though:

1.) Eldritch knight 11/sorcerer 9

You have 3 attacks per round, action surge, have lvl 5 spells, lvl 6 slots, and have font of magic to cast extra spells. With haste you can get four attacks per round, so you stay pretty even with a single class fighter, only falling behind one who has a caster buffing them, one who uses action surge, or a single class eldritch knight.

The downsides are limited high level spell access and a fair amount of MAD (needing at least decent scores in 4/6). For that reason 12/8 might work better, though you lose some spell access.

As for sorcerer over wizard, the reasoning is primarily quickened spell. This is effectively a better version of war magic with a slight cost in sorcery points. The gish functions dramatically better with this ability to fall back on. The fact sorcerer gains his damage boost at 6 rather than 10 is another point in his favor.

2. Fighter 5/sorcerer 15

You lose an attack, an ability increase, but gain access to 8th level spells, 9 level slots, and more sorcerers points. Not an awful trade.

3. Paladin 6/sorcerer 14

Same as the above fighter/sorcerer, except with smiting to help in melee combat and no 8th level spells. How big a deal that is depends on you. You go 6 rather than 5 to grab aura of protection to primarily help concentration saves, though the bonuses to other saves are worth consideration. Less MAD as well, and if you do point buy or got exceptional rolls you can potentially grab resilient (con) instead, allowing for 5/15.

4. Fighter 1/Paladin 2/ Warlock 17

This one works best if you can smite with warlock spells slots. RAW you don't seem to be able to, but it was clarified to be unintentional by designers so YMMV, ask your DM. If he is a stickler for RAW replace the two levels of paladin with two additional levels of fighter (for action surges and BM manuevers).

If you can do so and don't mind a more restricted spell list, it's a solid choice. You have 9th level spells, two attacks per round, extra damage based on charisma, constitution saves, and smites.

Arguably losing the ability to smite and gaining action surges and manuevers is a net gain, as they don't eat into spell slots allowing for more casting.

Overall not my favorite build, it is missing haste for one and requires a few too many rests to really keep up with others, but it might be to someone's liking.

5.) Eldritch knight 5/wizard (abjuration) 15

Most of these builds are focused on damage since that seemed to be how you judged martial prowess, but these seemed worth mentioning as great tanking builds.

Your arcane ward and projected ward abilities allow you to protect your teammates in a very direct way, your counterspells and dispel magic can shut down an enemy caster very well, and you yourself are incredibly resistant to enemy magic.

So that's a handful of builds I've looked at, I haven't gotten to test any thoroughly so I can't speak to their power,

Paladin/sorc looks best. Heavy armor and tons of casting.

Oath of vengeance looks like the obvious path. Grab wild magic for sorcerer, you'll be blown away by your melee damage from smite. You get hunter's mark and oath of enmity. Use sorcery for AOE, and paladin for single target damage. Great AC and lay on hands.

[Person_Man]

My understanding is that the developers have said on Twitter that Warlock Invocations were meant to be limited by your Warlock Class level. So you can't dip 2 levels into Warlock to get Thirsting Blade or whatnot, unless your DM chooses otherwise.

My 2cp:

If your preferred at-will attack option is to use physical weapons, then my advice is that you want to take at least 11ish levels of a class that grants you access to Extra Attack and some kind of bonus to damage or more attacks with physical weapons. (Fighter, Paladin, Pact of Blade Warlock, Rogue, or Monk. You could also consider Barbarian, but that doesn't mix well with any spellcasting class. And I consider Ranger to be a weak class at mid-high levels. You could also consider oddball combinations like 5 levels of anything that grants Extra Attack + Death Domain Cleric Cleric, but they probably won't work out well due to MAD). When you do optimize your weapon damage, they typically deal slightly/somewhat more at-will damage then Cantrips, and can benefit from using Magic Weapons (if your DM introduces them into your game). The down side is that they come with fiddly restrictions; Fighting Style and Feats strongly encourages you to use a single specific weapon type and tactic most of the time, Sneak Attack can only be used with Finesse and Ranged, Pact of Blade and Smite can only be used with melee, etc.

If your preferred at-will attack option is to use Cantrips, then the more optimal options are at least 2 levels of Warlock, 6 levels Dragonblood Sorcerer, or 10 levels of Evoker Wizard. Cantrips have the benefit of automatically scaling with your character level (as opposed to your class level), they're effective at a much greater range, and they sometimes come with status effects (push, pull, disadvantage, etc). The down side of Cantrips is that the ones that can be used while adjacent to enemies without Disadvantage are mediocre compared to most physical weapon options.

Its been my observation that in real games, area of effect spells are the most effective way to wipe out multiple enemies. So having access to higher level spell slots is typically more effective then having access to more/better attacks per turn with physical weapons or cantrips, UNLESS your DM throws mobs of enemies at you on a very frequent basis every game day. And you can go NOVA against a single enemy a variety of different ways; high level spells, Metamagic, Action Surge, Assassinate, and/or Smite.


Overall, I suggest just going with strait Pact of Blade Warlock. You get to use a heavy weapon or polearm + Extra Attack + Cha bonus damage, plus you get the awesome Eldritch Blast + push effect (which can target up to 4 enemies at high levels) for ranged attacks, plus you get awesome Hex and Armor of Agathys starting at 1st level, plus you get a small number of other potent spells.

If you're hung up on having lots of attacks with physical weapons, I would suggest the non-intuitive choice of strait Monk. By default you're making 2-3 attacks per turn that deal 1dX + Dex damage, with X scaling up based on your Monk level. You can add 2 more attacks or a Stun for just 1 point of Ki. Monks get a variety of magical effects (including several strait up ki powered spells, making them very similar to the Warlock in their resource management). Plus they're probably the most mobile class in the game, and if you roll well and have high Dex/Con/Wis, they're a surprisingly tanky option as well.

[SliceandDiceKid]

This build doesn't rely on either of those kinds of cheese.

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, (whatever). Both are available at 2nd level.

5th level (F3W2): Eldritch Blast x2
9th level (F7W2): Eldritch Blast x2 + Weapon Attack
11th level (F7W2N2): Eldritch Blast x3 + Weapon Attack
17th level (F9W2N6 or similar): Eldritch Blast x4 + Weapon Attack

Thus, 5 attacks, one of which is a weapon attack. Has nothing to do with stacking Extra Attack features.



I choose to interpret that as a compliment. Thank you.

Note that there are heavy stat requirements--this is the sort of build you use when you happen to roll an array like 18, 16, 16, 14, 13, 11 and are wondering what to do with it. You could get away with only CHA but the build works much, much better if you have DEX, CHA, CON, and INT, although only CHA is really essential to max.

Your verbiage was vague and misleading.

[Ashrym]

Extra attack doesn't stack. Also, some DMs won't allow you to take warlock invocations with level requirements until you have that many warlock levels.
Yeah, the official response was invocations are based on warlock levels and not character levels so most DM's would be following the class level requirement. It's in the sage advice responses.

Valor bard and blade pact warlock are the most obvious answers to the OP, and the other likely options are EK11 / caster 9, paladin, various clerics depending on domain. There are also a hodge podge of other MC characters like paladin / caster.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, the official response was invocations are based on warlock levels and not character levels so most DM's would be following the class level requirement. It's in the sage advice responses.

Valor bard and blade pact warlock are the most obvious answers to the OP, and the other likely options are EK11 / caster 9, paladin, various clerics depending on domain. There are also a hodge podge of other MC characters like paladin / caster.

Agreed and agreed. Like Person_man, I'm partial to the blade-pact warlock option. Picking the right spells means you can worry about STR/DEX first, CHA second, and utilize a wide variety of builds, invocations, and tactics. It feels a bit like a weeaboo archetype, but I try to ignore that =)

[MaxWilson]

Your verbiage was vague and misleading.

Apologies for not explaining in more detail. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to Eldritch Blast (why else would you get a "third attack" at level 9? why else would your "third weapon attack" not come until Fighter 11?) but apparently it wasn't obvious.

[silveralen]

Paladin/sorc looks best. Heavy armor and tons of casting.

Oath of vengeance looks like the obvious path. Grab wild magic for sorcerer, you'll be blown away by your melee damage from smite. You get hunter's mark and oath of enmity. Use sorcery for AOE, and paladin for single target damage. Great AC and lay on hands.

It's my favorite and by far the simplest. You never even struggle overmuch, nothing like a hasted paladin to get that scorching ray+three smites fun.

[Ashrym]

It's my favorite and by far the simplest. You never even struggle overmuch, nothing like a hasted paladin to get that scorching ray+three smites fun.

One of the other advantages is applying higher level slots and metamagic to paladin spells like cure wounds. Paladins open up available spells a lot compared to sorcerers.

[MaxWilson]

One of the other advantages is applying higher level slots and metamagic to paladin spells like cure wounds. Paladins open up available spells a lot compared to sorcerers.

Aid is a spell that scales pretty well with spell slots--certainly better and more proactive than Cure Wounds, anyway. I believe Bless also scales up nicely.

[Ashrym]

Aid is a spell that scales pretty well with spell slots--certainly better and more proactive than Cure Wounds, anyway. I believe Bless also scales up nicely.

I was thinking twin spell cure in a higher level slot. Bless only adds more targets and doesn't usually need to be cast in a high level slot.

Paladins don't have much in the way of in-combat healing for multiple targets and sorc improves that. There are more but that was the example that first came to mind.

[MaxWilson]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just expanding on the benefits of higher spell slots for a paladin.

[Person_Man]

One minor note on Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 (or Anything 2ish/Anything Else Xish), is that it can be a bit of a struggle around ECL 3-6ish. You don't have Extra Attack, you're not adding Cha bonus to Energy damage for a number of levels, you only have a few cantrips/spells and a few points of Metamagic. But everyone else in your party starting to hit the meat of some of their best class and subclass abilities, Extra Attack, etc.

It's not that big of a concern, especially if you happen to be starting at ECL 8+. But its noteworthy.

[Vogonjeltz]

This build doesn't rely on either of those kinds of cheese.

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, (whatever). Both are available at 2nd level.

5th level (F3W2): Eldritch Blast x2
9th level (F7W2): Eldritch Blast x2 + Weapon Attack
11th level (F7W2N2): Eldritch Blast x3 + Weapon Attack
17th level (F9W2N6 or similar): Eldritch Blast x4 + Weapon Attack

Thus, 5 attacks, one of which is a weapon attack. Has nothing to do with stacking Extra Attack features.

Interesting. I think the only two downsides I can see are that (as you mentioned) the character would be depending on at least 2 stats for attacking. (Charisma + Str/Dex, possibly Int as well if we're really going Eldritch Knight, and of course everyone wants/needs Con) and that all ranged attack rolls in melee are made at disadvantage.

Eldritch Knight is probably better off just using a melee attack cantrip/spell (shocking grasp, unless he somehow gets thorn whip).

Beastmaster Ranger using Swift Quiver also gets a net 5 attacks. (2 beast, 1 ranger + 2 bonus). Granted, it's a 5th level spell slot.

[MaxWilson]

One minor note on Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 (or Anything 2ish/Anything Else Xish), is that it can be a bit of a struggle around ECL 3-6ish. You don't have Extra Attack, you're not adding Cha bonus to Energy damage for a number of levels, you only have a few cantrips/spells and a few points of Metamagic. But everyone else in your party starting to hit the meat of some of their best class and subclass abilities, Extra Attack, etc.

It's not that big of a concern, especially if you happen to be starting at ECL 8+. But its noteworthy.

I agree, it is noteworthy. To such a player I would add the following advice:

Sounds like a great opportunity to play a support role for a while. Instead of trying to blast away with Fireball, which you don't have, you might contribute more by boosting another party member. For example, cast Web to block the corridor so the Polearm Barbarian with 3 attacks can take on the bad guys one at a time. Cast Magic Item for your buddy to boost his damage for an hour, or Longstrider the gnome so he can run away when the going gets tough. It doesn't matter whether you play defense or offense as long as the team is winning.


Interesting. I think the only two downsides I can see are that (as you mentioned) the character would be depending on at least 2 stats for attacking. (Charisma + Str/Dex, possibly Int as well if we're really going Eldritch Knight, and of course everyone wants/needs Con) and that all ranged attack rolls in melee are made at disadvantage.

Eldritch Knight is probably better off just using a melee attack cantrip/spell (shocking grasp, unless he somehow gets thorn whip).

Beastmaster Ranger using Swift Quiver also gets a net 5 attacks. (2 beast, 1 ranger + 2 bonus). Granted, it's a 5th level spell slot.

This is obviously a YMMV type of thing, but one reason I'm attracted to the above concept is that I like archer fighters better than melee fighters anyway. It's so easy to summon meatshields in 5E that personally wading into melee just feels counterproductive: you're exposing your valuable personal HP for a minimal gain in damage on the order of 10 HP/round at the very most. Melee is a backup option and there are ways to get out of it (Mobile feat is my favorite).

When you say, "better off using... Shocking Grasp," do you mean "use Shocking Grasp to escape melee" or "use Shocking Grasp and then remain in melee"?

[silveralen]

One minor note on Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 (or Anything 2ish/Anything Else Xish), is that it can be a bit of a struggle around ECL 3-6ish. You don't have Extra Attack, you're not adding Cha bonus to Energy damage for a number of levels, you only have a few cantrips/spells and a few points of Metamagic. But everyone else in your party starting to hit the meat of some of their best class and subclass abilities, Extra Attack, etc.

It's not that big of a concern, especially if you happen to be starting at ECL 8+. But its noteworthy.

If you want a true gish you are probably taking the martial class to lvl 5 in any case. At least, I would in the vast majority.

Which does run into the problem of the low level character potentially not fitting your concept till lvl 6+, but that's one reason I tend to recommend the use of paladin or eldritch knight as he base class, as in that case it at least feels close to concept throughout the game.

[Vogonjeltz]

I agree, it is noteworthy. To such a player I would add the following advice:

Sounds like a great opportunity to play a support role for a while. Instead of trying to blast away with Fireball, which you don't have, you might contribute more by boosting another party member. For example, cast Web to block the corridor so the Polearm Barbarian with 3 attacks can take on the bad guys one at a time. Cast Magic Item for your buddy to boost his damage for an hour, or Longstrider the gnome so he can run away when the going gets tough. It doesn't matter whether you play defense or offense as long as the team is winning.



This is obviously a YMMV type of thing, but one reason I'm attracted to the above concept is that I like archer fighters better than melee fighters anyway. It's so easy to summon meatshields in 5E that personally wading into melee just feels counterproductive: you're exposing your valuable personal HP for a minimal gain in damage on the order of 10 HP/round at the very most. Melee is a backup option and there are ways to get out of it (Mobile feat is my favorite).

When you say, "better off using... Shocking Grasp," do you mean "use Shocking Grasp to escape melee" or "use Shocking Grasp and then remain in melee"?

I mean shocking grasp isn't rolled at disadvantage, whereas all other cantrips are (including Eldritch blast, which makes it much more likely to miss, and much less likely to crit)

[oncnawan]

3. Paladin 6/sorcerer 14

Same as the above fighter/sorcerer, except with smiting to help in melee combat and no 8th level spells. How big a deal that is depends on you. You go 6 rather than 5 to grab aura of protection to primarily help concentration saves, though the bonuses to other saves are worth consideration. Less MAD as well, and if you do point buy or got exceptional rolls you can potentially grab resilient (con) instead, allowing for 5/15.



If you take a level of sorcerer first, you get proficiency with CON saves...

[silveralen]

If you take a level of sorcerer first, you get proficiency with CON saves...

I honestly hadn't noticed sorcerer recieved con saves. They were so stingy handing it out to every other character who used magic I never even checked.

Go sorcerer first then without any hesitation.

[MaxWilson]

I mean shocking grasp isn't rolled at disadvantage, whereas all other cantrips are (including Eldritch blast, which makes it much more likely to miss, and much less likely to crit)

In most cases, trading Eldritch Blast for Shocking Grasp is a bad idea. Shocking Grasp does less than half damage compared to Eldritch Blast. EB-at-disadvantage will still do more damage than Shocking Grasp unless your to-hit is significantly over 11, which rarely happens against CR-appropriate monsters. Plus, you lose your chance to push the enemy away with Repelling Blast (if you took it), which will prevent subsequent attacks from being at disadvantage anyway.

[Eslin]

Warrior mage wise, you gotta define what you want - they all have different advantages. A chief distinction is what you're using the magic for - some use spells and swords for offense, some use spells to boost their swording.

Straight warrior-mage wise? Paladin. Great defenses, good damage, useful spell list and an arcane strike style spell burning feature.

If you want to use both attacks and spells for damage, way of the four element monks can switch between fists and fireballs instantly based on need.

If you have the stats for it and you want high sustained damage, 7 levels of eldritch knight and a couple of warlock will get you 3-5 attacks of 1d10+1d6+5 depending on your level.

For full mage with warrior options:
Moon druids make great tanks and do somewhat decent melee damage.
Valor bards make fantastic archers, with four bow attacks from level 10, and have an incredibly versatile spell list on top of that.
Death clerics can channel undead to do an extra 5+2xlevel damage on their melee attacks - they can't sustain it, but at 20 they do an extra 45 damage on their first three melee attacks.

[numerek]

17 eldritch knight / 3 chain fiend lock
This gives agonizing blast, archery fighting style, war magic, haste, arcane charge, improved familiar, and you still get 6 ASI. Human variant Crossbow master
Number of attacks level progression
7 eldritch knight / 2 fiendlock / 10 eldritch knight / 1 chainlock
number of attacks
1-4
2 hand crossbow
5-8
3 hand crossbow
9-10
2 eldritch blast + 1 heavy crossbow
11-14
3 eldritch blast + 1 heavy crossbow
15-16
3 eldritch blast + 2 heavy crossbow
17-20
4 eldritch blast + 2 heavy crossbow

vs straight hand crossbow build you are trading d6s for d10s and some of your piercing damage for force and less reliant on finding a magical hand crossbow. If you are going up against something you want to go full sharpshooter on you will only be worse by one attack during 5 levels 11-14 and 20.

Damage dice level progression (doesn't rely on hand crossbow bonus attack interpretation)
2 fiendlock / 17 eldritch knight / 1 chainlock
1
d10+d6
2-4
d10+d6+cha
5-8
2d10+2d6+2*cha
9-10
3d10+3d6+2*cha+dex(hex without retarget) 2d10+2d6+2*cha(with retarget) 3d10+2*cha+dex(without hex)
11-14
4d10+4d6+3*cha+dex(hex without retarget) 3d10+3d6+3*cha(with retarget) 4d10+3*cha+dex(without hex)
15-16
5d10+3*cha+2*dex(haste) or same as 11-14(hex)
17-20
6d10+4*cha+2*dex(haste) or 5d10+5d6+4*cha+dex(hex without retarget) 4d10+4d6+4*cha(with retarget)
If you are not interested in haste this build doesn't need crossbow expert unless you want to be on the front lines. And even with haste you can trade the 2d10s for 2d8s longbow.

Didn't include any sharpshooter analysis because it is damage and ac dependent.

These builds are for sustained damage as during most fights you only need to cast 1 spell, if its hex you get 2 casts per short rest and then you have eldritch knights spells slots to cover other fights between short rests. Haste will be more limited but falling back on hex is nearly just as good.

[andhaira]

How does the Eldritch Knight perform in evocation spell damage as compared to a pure wizard or sorcerer? He gets spells later, especially the classic Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Far too late IMO, at 13 level, that's 8 full levels after Wizard/Sorc

Is it still worth it? Can he keep up a respectable spell damage rate compared to the others?

[Eslin]

How does the Eldritch Knight perform in evocation spell damage as compared to a pure wizard or sorcerer? He gets spells later, especially the classic Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Far too late IMO, at 13 level, that's 8 full levels after Wizard/Sorc

Is it still worth it? Can he keep up a respectable spell damage rate compared to the others?

Not really. He has much lower slots and far fewer to play with - if you want a martial somewhat decent at that aspect, roll a monk. Best use for eldritch knight is utility/buff spells and the occasional well placed blast - your blasting is far too limited to use often.

[Raxxius]

One minor note on Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 (or Anything 2ish/Anything Else Xish), is that it can be a bit of a struggle around ECL 3-6ish. You don't have Extra Attack, you're not adding Cha bonus to Energy damage for a number of levels, you only have a few cantrips/spells and a few points of Metamagic. But everyone else in your party starting to hit the meat of some of their best class and subclass abilities, Extra Attack, etc.

It's not that big of a concern, especially if you happen to be starting at ECL 8+. But its noteworthy.

I wouldn't even say it's a minor note, it's a fairly significant throttling of your power level, generally speaking I think it's better to get to the meat of the class first before you multi. The devs have specifically inhibited 'cake and eating' situations with dip classes, most likely as a reflex from 3.5s mess. Better to stick with a single class 1 to 5ish imo.

Of course if you can be carried, get carried :)

[Giant2005]

I wouldn't even say it's a minor note, it's a fairly significant bonus to your power level
Fixed.
As long as you multiclass right, you aren't throttling a thing but enhancing it. My Wizard's first level was of Fighter which got him a good AC (4 points higher than he would have had as a pure Wizard) and proficiency in Con saves and what did it cost him? A single spell slot which he would otherwise be spending on Mage Armor anyway (maybe even two slots on Mage Armor).
The same is true of my Warlock/Sorcerer. Those two Warlock levels cost him a little bit more than the above Wizard but the short-rest-renewable spell slots alone make up the difference and the cantrip that is actually worth using (And superior to any single target level 1 damage spell) is just gravy. He is another that would be significantly weakened if he didn't multiclass.
Sure there is an argument that could be made against delaying ASI/Feats and some class abilities (The Fighter dip on my Wizard would suddenly be a terrible decision for a level when he gets to level 18 and could have had Spell Mastery if he was pure) but for the most part, the decisions are no-brainers with the bonuses outweighing the costs significantly.

[silveralen]

How does the Eldritch Knight perform in evocation spell damage as compared to a pure wizard or sorcerer? He gets spells later, especially the classic Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Far too late IMO, at 13 level, that's 8 full levels after Wizard/Sorc

Is it still worth it? Can he keep up a respectable spell damage rate compared to the others?

Keep up? Lord no. Did you really expect him to? He dabbles in magic, he isn't matching a specialist.

If you want something that can match the blasting power of a sorcerer/wizard and still fight in melee try fiend warlock or start off as sorcerer and multiclass into paladin after you get lvl 3 spells. Both options give you better blasting power and melee options. The latter requires using haste to keep up in melee till you hit five paladin, but you have con prof to help.

Now, these builds aren't going to keep up with an eldritch knight in raw melee damage (again, as you would expect) but you get better blasting.

[Goldlizard]

I think it's variant human, tough feat, start with fighter and multiclass into wizard. subclasses eldrich knight or arcane archer, wizard war mage or pretty much anything except diviner and illusion

[Roland St. Jude]

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