What do levels and ability scores really mean?

[LoyalPaladin]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now and I can't seem to find it in any books anywhere. One of my players came and asked me what level really means in regards to your character. I want to take this a step further and find out what abilities mean as well.
To make this a little clearer, I want to be able to explain to them what being a certain level means. Does level 1 mean you are just some average Joe? Does 20 mean you are a demi-god? What about the levels in between? Also, what do your ability scores mean in terms of your character? Are you hideous with a 7 charisma? Do you look like the terminator with a 24 strength?
They were slightly concerned when they came to me because they had read that Gandalf was only a level 5 wizard somewhere on the internet. I just didn't have the knowledge to tell them what it all really meant.

[Pyon]

I remember making a thread a bit like this but this asks even more questions. In my thread people answered that around level 8 is the human limit (human as in OUR human limit so the greatest fighter of all times in our world was level 8). So yeah, not sure what else to say but I'm also very curious on the subject.

[Amphetryon]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now and I can't seem to find it in any books anywhere. One of my players came and asked me what level really means in regards to your character. I want to take this a step further and find out what abilities mean as well.
To make this a little clearer, I want to be able to explain to them what being a certain level means. Does level 1 mean you are just some average Joe? Does 20 mean you are a demi-god? What about the levels in between? Also, what do your ability scores mean in terms of your character? Are you hideous with a 7 charisma? Do you look like the terminator with a 24 strength?
They were slightly concerned when they came to me because they had read that Gandalf was only a level 5 wizard somewhere on the internet. I just didn't have the knowledge to tell them what it all really meant.

Note that the "Gandalf was only a level 5 Wizard" argument is a bit skewed in a couple of ways. Off the top of my head:

1. The world in which Gandalf exists is not Dungeons and Dragons, despite some obvious similarities. Magic doesn't work the same way in Middle Earth as it generally does in D&D, perhaps particularly in 3.X.

2. Gandalf was an Outsider in D&D terms, either an Angel or a Demigod (I've seen both arguments). In 3.5, that would toss a hefty LA on top of any Class levels he had.

3. Typically, if I am describing a character who calls a Special Mount (Shadowfax), wields a named, magical sword in combat (Glamdring), behaves according to a strict Code of Conduct that discourages needless violence and tries to redeem individuals where possible, casts precious few spells and prefers mounted combat, and belongs to a special order, this description would not scream 'Wizard' in D&D terms.

I'll let others address the specifics of what level means/doesn't mean within their frames of reference.

[Flickerdart]

Level 6 is around the cap of human ability, skills-wise. The vast majority of humans would be 1st or 2nd level unless you're looking at the nonsense that is Forgotten Realms where everybody is a retired 20th level wizard.

As for ability scores, people have approached them by looking at the standard deviation in the stat on dice rolls VS in real life (though it really only works for IQ/Intelligence because the others can't be quantified as readily).

A note on appearance: Charisma doesn't really affect appearance, which becomes obvious as soon as you look at any monsters. Aboleths are literally called repulsive in their own entry, and yet they have sky-high CHA. It's all about confidence and presence - you could literally look like a squid on legs but have a massively powerful personality, or you could be a gorgeous wallflower who couldn't convince anyone of anything ever.

Strength certainly doesn't affect appearance. You could look bulky with STR 24, or wiry and thin.

Note that the "Gandalf was only a level 5 Wizard" argument is a bit skewed in a couple of ways.
The argument is not "he was" so much as "he could have been represented by" with the logical conclusion that if the party caster was that low in power, Aragorn was probably not 20th level either.

[Troacctid]

You can basically do everything Gandalf can do at level 5, yes. Does that mean a level 5 character is as powerful as Gandalf? Well, trick question. First off, Gandalf doesn't have much in the way of class features, but that's probably because he's playing a race with a high LA; dollars to donuts his ECL is quite high. Second, power is relative. In real-life, a 5th level character could certainly be as powerful as Gandalf is in Lord of the Rings, but a typical D&D setting is higher-magic than that and has a different baseline for power. In Greyhawk or Faerun, Gandalf would not inspire the same awe that he does in Middle Earth because his abilities are not uncommon. (Although again, he's like a celestial or something, so that's probably worth something.)

As for ability scores... high Charisma tends to be associated with physical attractiveness, as a healthy rating in one area will usually improve the other--attractive people command more attention, and a charismatic personality enhances attractiveness. Similarly, high Strength is associated with a muscular build. But there are always outliers; someone who is beautiful but awkward and shy might have low Charisma while someone who is plain but funny and likeable might have high Charisma. Another person might look shrimpy and weak, but when they punch you, it turns out that belt they're wearing happens to be of the +6 Giant Strength variety.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hmm... thank you for the responses. I will make sure to pass all this on. I think the whole Gandalf issue will be resolved along with ability scores. I would like to know what happens once you pass level 8 and transcend the limits of a normal human being? Are you globally known? Are people praising (or cursing) your name? I mean, you're probably already going to Sovngarde haha.

[Asrrin]

Most people are between levels 1-3. A level 1 is most any adult, while a level 3 would represent the captain of the guard, a successful merchant, or the head priest at a local church.

Once you are in the 6-9 levels, you are known in your local region as a celebrity. Nobles should be coming to you rather than you going tot hem.

the low teens represent truly heroic characters. Most of the civilized world know of your exploits, and you are routinely active in adventurers that will change the course of history, if only in a small part.

High teens is saving the world legendary. Bards will sing songs of your exploits for generations to come. Even otherworldly beings like angels and demons know of you and your power.

Level 20 is nearly demi-god status. you have enough power to reshape the world as you see fit, and depending on the campaign can even challenge the gods themselves. At level 20, even non-magical warriors can drop from orbit with not a scratch, dance on the clouds themselves with no wings, and drop ancient dragons in a matter of seconds.

[Troacctid]

It depends on the setting, but by default, I believe the DMG has some guidelines on what sort of level ranges you expect to see in a typical city. So find and consult those charts to get an idea of what percentile your players are in.

[OldTrees1]

Depends on how much you optimize and what tier of class you are talking about. However a common assumption the rules make(even if they do not support the assumption without DM help) is that PCs level up from Local Hero to Regional Hero to National Hero to Global Hero to Planar Hero.

[TheIronGolem]

Hmm... thank you for the responses. I will make sure to pass all this on. I think the whole Gandalf issue will be resolved along with ability scores. I would like to know what happens once you pass level 8 and transcend the limits of a normal human being? Are you globally known? Are people praising (or cursing) your name? I mean, you're probably already going to Sovngarde haha.

There's no one right answer to this, it's pretty much campaign-dependent. Personally though, I don't see why level should factor into it. It would be more about the deeds you're known to have done. The peasants don't tell each other stories about Bob The Level 8 Ranger, they tell each other stories about Bob the amazing woodsman who killed the bulette that was terrorizing Mudfarmville. Character level may have a loosely correlated relationship with reputation, but one should not be assumed to imply the other.

[Emperor Tippy]

90% of the world has no PC levels.

Likewise 90% of the world is not going to reach ECL 5.

Those two groups aren't one and the same but there is overlap.

A level 1 fighter with 14 Con has 12 HP. An average commoner (level 1, 10 Con) has 4 HP. The level 1 fighter is already better than the vast majority of the population in combat. This isn't "new recruit" level it's "son of the local lord who has been intensively trained in the arts of war pretty much since he could walk and talk".

Per the DMG a small town of one to two thousand people is going to have a single level 8 fighter at best with the average small town having a single level 4 or 5 fighter. The best small town is going to have one level 8 fighter, two level 4 fighters, four level 2 fighters, and eight level 1 fighters. This is the town where a renowned hero has retired and set up a fighting academy or the like.

---
Level 1 PC class: Highly skilled or intensively schooled but likely lacking in real world experience.

Level 3 PC class: As before except with anything from a year to a decade of experience.

Level 5 PC class: As before except either very exceptional, exceptional circumstances are in play, or two decades or more of experience. Not a legend or anything but generally a local hero, often the local lord who has been rewarded for a lifetime of good service to a greater lord.

Level 8 PC class: Part of the King's personal guard or the like. Generally those with exceptional natural talent in their chosen field, a fair amount of luck, and helpful circumstances.

Level 10 PC class: Legend. This is where you have made it into the bards stories that will be sung not just months or years later but long after you are dead and your bones are dust. Sorcerer's bind entire armies of elemental's and outsiders to serve them, Necromancer's can field whole bands of undead, Fighter's single handedly slaughter whole Orc bands, Cleric's can bring the dead to life, kill with a single touch, and speak directly to their god.

Level 13 PC class: Beyond merely a legend. Often times the most powerful single individual in an entire kingdom. Wizards can be anywhere in the great wheel in 12 seconds (Plane Shift + Greater Teleport) or command the very weather over an entire city. Clerics can kill a legion of unbelievers with but a single word. A fighter can pick up a weapon that he has never heard of in his life before and wield in better than most masters. A Bard can regularly perform pieces of music so enthralling that even deities sit up and take notice or make even an unfriendly crowd walk away as the bards friends, or with a few minutes of work turn even a hostile enemy into a friend.

Level 15 PC class: Generally beyond the concerns of individual kingdoms. Their enemies threaten the survival or freedom of the entire world. Sorcerer's bind and enslave the general's of hell's armies. Wizard's can turn themselves into living iron and slaughter the armies of entire nations with impunity, burn entire armies to ash, bring winter across an entire nation in the middle of summer, conquer aging, bend time, and turn you into a dragon with a finger snap. A Fighter can take the field against twenty five thousand foes and walk off two days later without a scratch on him and none of his foes alive or fight the champions of the Abyss in single combat and emerge victorious. A Bard can calm a raging enemy with but a few words and turn him into a fanatical follower with but a short conversation, or he can turn an entire legion in to a fanatical mob that will willingly die for the Bard.

Level 18 PC Class: Demigods. World spanning empires can be single handedly conquered in days. Entire planes with whatever laws of reality the individual desires can be created. Death is of no concern. Continent spanning cities made of Mithril and sculpted so perfectly that even the gods weep at the beauty can be brought into existence with a finger snap.

Level 21+ PC class: Limitations are for lesser beings. There is no feat that can not be performed, no task that can not be completed, no enemy that can not be defeated. Stories exist of Fighter's who have held a single passage against unending demonic hordes for ten thousand years without even a minutes rest, and they are true.


Considering that a 19 is the highest score that a real life human can get before variants or aging and that 24 is the absolute highest a real life human could get (18 base, 1 level up in a mental stat, Human Paragon 3 for +2, +3 from Venerable), the numbers aren't that great.

10 is the average.
12 is the "I work out/I'm quite smart/I'm a real people person" level. Notably better but not something super rare.
14 is the "I'm the strongest guy in the gym/I'm a MENSA member with a doctorate/I'm a congressmen" level. Rarer still but out of a large enough population it still isn't abnormal enough to get you accolades for the score.
16 is the "I'm a NFL linemen/I'm a Nobel prize winner/I'm the President" level. Very rare and abnormal enough that your ability does get you public recognition.
18 is the "I'm Arnold in his prime or an Olympic medal level lifter/I'm Einstein or Hawking/I'm Clinton/Regan/Hitler". You have a base score of 18 when you are pretty much held up as the standard for which other humans are judged against.

19-23 is when you start hitting people like Da Vinci. These aren't the "a few times in a generation" that an 18 is but the few times every couple thousand years at the highest end.

Now in a D&D world its slightly different because individuals can become, by most definitions, demigods; but by the same token the population tends to be smaller.

My responses to similar questions asked in the past.

[LoyalPaladin]

My responses to similar questions asked in the past.
That... that was beautiful.

[Jeff the Green]

Considering that a 19 is the highest score that a real life human can get before variants or aging and that 24 is the absolute highest a real life human could get (18 base, 1 level up in a mental stat, Human Paragon 3 for +2, +3 from Venerable), the numbers aren't that great.

10 is the average.
12 is the "I work out/I'm quite smart/I'm a real people person" level. Notably better but not something super rare.
14 is the "I'm the strongest guy in the gym/I'm a MENSA member with a doctorate/I'm a congressmen" level. Rarer still but out of a large enough population it still isn't abnormal enough to get you accolades for the score.
16 is the "I'm a NFL linemen/I'm a Nobel prize winner/I'm the President" level. Very rare and abnormal enough that your ability does get you public recognition.
18 is the "I'm Arnold in his prime or an Olympic medal level lifter/I'm Einstein or Hawking/I'm Clinton/Regan/Hitler". You have a base score of 18 when you are pretty much held up as the standard for which other humans are judged against.

19-23 is when you start hitting people like Da Vinci. These aren't the "a few times in a generation" that an 18 is but the few times every couple thousand years at the highest end.

Now in a D&D world its slightly different because individuals can become, by most definitions, demigods; but by the same token the population tends to be smaller.

You're drastically underestimating how common high scores are (also overestimating how intelligent Nobel prize-winners are, but that's not particularly relevant). Average characters use 3d6. The common array is just a simplification:

Average characters, on the other hand, have average abilities (rolled on 3d6) and don’t get maximum hit points from their first Hit Die.

Thus an 18 is at ~99.5th percentile, smarter than all but 0.5% of the population. This sounds tiny, but it means you only need 139 people to have a 50% chance of having one, and 598 to have a 95% of one. My high school graduating class likely had five. It's equivalent to an IQ of about 145, which while very smart isn't Einstein levels (it's about where I am, for example, and everyone around me can attest to the fact). One scientist estimated Copernicus and Einstein at 160, Kant at 175, and Galileo at 185.

If you want to know what the scores mean (other than Strength, which has a handy real-life conversion guide in the carrying capacity table), you use percentiles. The median number of Facebook friends is 200. So this is what each score means:



Score
Means


3
Same as the worst of them


4
Better than one of them


5
Better than four of them


6
Better than nine of them


7
Better than 19 of them


8
Better than 32 of them


9
Better than 52 of them


10
Better than 75 of them


11
Better than 100 of them


12
Better than 125 of them


13
Better than 148 of them


14
Better than 168 of them


15
Better than 182 of them


16
Better than 191 of them


17
Better than 196 of them


18
Same as the best of them



(Assuming your Facebook friends are a random sample of humanity, which probably isn't the case.)

[Urpriest]

Per the rules (Legend Lore etc.), level 11 is when characters become legendary.

In general, it's best to figure out where characters fall on the cosmic totem pole by the monsters that occupy the corresponding CR. So for example, Nalfeshnees serve as judges for the damned, and are CR 14, so level 14 is about at the "interact with minor nobility of the Abyss on an equal playing field" point.

As Tippy points out, the demographics table should give you an idea of how common or uncommon PCs of a given level are in the world.

[Chronos]

There's an infamous article by someone called the Alexandrian that tries to argue that Einstein was a 5th-level expert. But what he actually shows is that 5th level is where a person can, with a lot of effort and luck, learn something that nobody has ever known before. We have a word for such individuals: Doctor. By that reasoning, anyone with a PhD is at least 5th level.

This corresponds well with other D&D rules. One level past that is when an academic can start taking on grad students and postdocs, or in other words, when you can take the Leadership feat.

11th level, according to the Legend Lore spell, is roughly when you'd start to be considered "legendary". This also seems to correspond well with the academic example: Above the PhD (5th level) and tenure-track professor (6th level), you have the full professor (7th), head of a research group (8th), and department chair (9th). Maybe one level after that (10th) is when you start being known to everyone in your field, and past that, you have something named after you that everyone studying your subject has heard of (which seems to correspond pretty well to "legendary"). Yes, the assignment of these milestones to levels is a bit arbitrary, but they're all pretty sharp, discrete milestones.

Of course, it keeps on going past that. Anyone who's studied physics has heard of Hooke, or Snell, or Bernoulli, but they're still far below Planck, or Heisenberg, or Galileo, or Franklin (who was also known in many other fields). So they're higher level yet. And they're all below Einstein, Newton, and Archimedes, who are possibly the only 20th-level physicists the world has ever known.

[Emperor Tippy]

There's an infamous article by someone called the Alexandrian that tries to argue that Einstein was a 5th-level expert. But what he actually shows is that 5th level is where a person can, with a lot of effort and luck, learn something that nobody has ever known before. We have a word for such individuals: Doctor. By that reasoning, anyone with a PhD is at least 5th level.
We have personally had this debate before and I proved that you could reasonable hit DC 30-40 knowledge checks as a level 1 Expert.

In other words, no one does not have to be level 5+ to get a doctorate.

[Jeff the Green]

We have personally had this debate before and I proved that you could reasonable hit DC 30-40 knowledge checks as a level 1 Expert.

In other words, no one does not have to be level 5+ to get a doctorate.

Aside from all the other optimization you could use, no PhD completed his doctoral research entirely on his own. They had, at a minimum, an adviser aiding another. Many (especially in some fields like experimental physics or bioinformatics) will have many more than that. It's not unreasonable for a paper to have so many authors you can't actually list them all in the space normally given.

[Flickerdart]

We have personally had this debate before and I proved that you could reasonable hit DC 30-40 knowledge checks as a level 1 Expert.

In other words, no one does not have to be level 5+ to get a doctorate.
Off the top of my head:

4 base ranks, +3 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for masterwork tool (library of papers on Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for Aid Another (RA), +1 Absent-Minded, +1 Specialized (Theoretical Basketweaving). +13. Let's say +5 from ability scores for +18.

So 30 is relatively simple, but we're still +2 short of making 40 possible (anyone who's done graduate level research knows that you're basically taking 20 on it anyway).

[Psyren]

Aside from all the other optimization you could use, no PhD completed his doctoral research entirely on his own. They had, at a minimum, an adviser aiding another. Many (especially in some fields like experimental physics or bioinformatics) will have many more than that. It's not unreasonable for a paper to have so many authors you can't actually list them all in the space normally given.

This. Whether you count it as Aid Another or a circumstance bonus, there is something outside of that person's innate knowledge or experience bossting their chances of success - they're not simply rolling on their own, and as Flickerdart pointed out in his last sentence, they may not even be "rolling" at all.

[plastickle]

Off the top of my head:

4 base ranks, +3 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for masterwork tool (library of papers on Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for Aid Another (RA), +1 Absent-Minded, +1 Specialized (Theoretical Basketweaving). +13. Let's say +5 from ability scores for +18..

I think I'd drop absent-minded, because we're trying to make this generalized, and the proportion of absent-minded professors might be higher than in the general public, but still not anywhere near a majority. Likewise, I think +4 from ability scores is more reasonable, as we're sort of looking at whether Lvl 3 (or 2, or even 1), will suffice.

That said, your bonus for the library seems dreadfully low. Our researcher has access to a library worth vastly much more than a 55gp - I think I'd have to count a good university library as a +5 item, if not higher.

[Chronos]

Not all masterwork tools cost the same amount. A masterwork tool for Alchemy, for instance, costs 1000 GP. Nor does one masterwork tool necessarily apply to all checks with a given skill: One could argue that a well-stocked library is not one tool, but thousands, each applying to a slightly different task.

Tippy, power levels, however quantified, will of course depend on amount of optimization as well as on level. So any statement of "A person of X level can do Y" must necessarily be somewhat subjective. One can still speak of the level evidenced by a particular accomplishment in typical or expected terms, however.

[Jeff the Green]

Not all masterwork tools cost the same amount. A masterwork tool for Alchemy, for instance, costs 1000 GP.

No it doesn't. A Masterwork Artisan's Tool for Craft (alchemy) stacks with the Alchemist's Lab. Actually, Craft (alchemy) is kind of weird since it doesn't even require tools to avoid the -2 penalty.

[Urpriest]

Tippy, power levels, however quantified, will of course depend on amount of optimization as well as on level. So any statement of "A person of X level can do Y" must necessarily be somewhat subjective. One can still speak of the level evidenced by a particular accomplishment in typical or expected terms, however.

One should also be aware that in the modern day there's a lot less room for optimization, given the stripped-down nature of d20 Modern. Potentially more wealth shenanigans, but that seems true of RL as well.

[Chronos]

Actually, now that I double-check, an alchemist's lab is actually a whole bunch of masterwork tools for alchemy.

An alchemist’s lab always has the perfect tool for making alchemical items, so it provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.

Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
So "the perfect tool for the job" is a masterwork tool, and the lab contains multiple of those. And you can't use an alchemist's lab and some other masterwork tool for the same alchemy check, because that would be trying to get a bonus from two masterwork items for the same skill check.

[aleucard]

Actually, now that I double-check, an alchemist's lab is actually a whole bunch of masterwork tools for alchemy.


So "the perfect tool for the job" is a masterwork tool, and the lab contains multiple of those. And you can't use an alchemist's lab and some other masterwork tool for the same alchemy check, because that would be trying to get a bonus from two masterwork items for the same skill check.


In which case, why does the Alchemist's Lab exist?

[Urpriest]

In which case, why does the Alchemist's Lab exist?

Because the standard interpretation of there being masterwork tools for absolutely everything is silly? :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

I think I'd drop absent-minded, because we're trying to make this generalized, and the proportion of absent-minded professors might be higher than in the general public, but still not anywhere near a majority.
Absent-Minded is rather poorly named (as are most traits) but +1 Knowledges/-1 Spot and Listen is a set of modifiers one can apply to a great deal of people in general, and probably the vast majority of academics.

[Jeff the Green]

Absent-Minded is rather poorly named (as are most traits) but +1 Knowledges/-1 Spot and Listen is a set of modifiers one can apply to a great deal of people in general, and probably the vast majority of academics.

I know a lot of academics. I can think of exactly one who wouldn't fit, and he's an ornithologist who spends a lot of time identifying birds at a distance.

[Gemini476]

One thing to remember about the "Gandalf was a fifth-level magic user" article is that it was, as the title may imply, not for third edition.

And it was more about a fifth-level magic user being able to replicate Gandalf's feats than anything else. It was trying to show that you didn't need to make every single powerful character 20th level.

Back then, if you'd try to stat out Einstein he'd be a Normal Man. That is to say, beyond his high intelligence his stats are roughly the same as everyone else. He wouldn't be magically better at combat like an Expert 5 would be.

How much of the original article is still applicable to modern D&D (or old, I guess, since we're talking about the previous previous decade-old edition) is arguable, but given that E6 is fully functional and at times better than standard 3.5 I'm inclined to believe that some of it still holds true. Especially given how many people make people like kings aristocrats or fighters in the mid-teens just because.

[Chronos]

In which case, why does the Alchemist's Lab exist?
Because it's more convenient to buy all of your alchemy tools at once, instead of separately buying the perfect tool for making tanglefoot bags, and the perfect tool for making antivenin, and the perfect tool for making alchemist's fire, and so on.

[ericgrau]

Vaguely levels mean experience, time spent learning from challenges. Forget where I read that, maybe it was even in 2e. Though that description falls apart if you look into it too much. Level 1 in a PC class means fresh out of college or training camp: well trained but no experience. Level 1 in an NPC means average Joe, though you can be an average Joe who is well trained in a basic trade as an expert. Level 5 is elite, captain, Olympic athlete, top physicist, etc. I think the DMG has some level 5 examples like that, and level 3 is already a pretty special soldier. 11 is legendary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm). Someone you might not see in your lifetime but of whom there are stories of in the past. Well in the D&D world there tend to be a few more living level 11+ people than ours, but they are still easily countable. 20 might be more of an Achilles or Hercules than an all out demi-god, unless that's what you meant.

For ability scores around 8-12 is near average with every 2 points being a major step up or down. Non-elite NPCs typically have a high score of 13 and a low of 8. 14 is already majorly strong or smart, 6 is already dumb. 16-18 is getting into the good scientists or geniuses, 3-4 is retarded. No one is normally below 3 or above 18, so 17-18 strength is Schwarzenegger in his prime, and 24 is superhuman. They can lift more than twice as much as strength 18 in fact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging). High level PCs with 33-34 strength can lift cars.

[Gnome Alone]

That's the first time I've heard of someone's reaction to "Gandalf was a fifth level Magic-User" being "oh man, what's wrong with me, I need to be more powerful at fifth level then."

[Calimehter]

Off the top of my head:

4 base ranks, +3 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for masterwork tool (library of papers on Theoretical Basketweaving), +2 for Aid Another (RA), +1 Absent-Minded, +1 Specialized (Theoretical Basketweaving). +13. Let's say +5 from ability scores for +18.

So 30 is relatively simple, but we're still +2 short of making 40 possible (anyone who's done graduate level research knows that you're basically taking 20 on it anyway).

Grab a flaw to get Favored In Guild for another +2. The "guild" in this case being a university or large corporate/national research lab where you get a lot of peer feedback.

[Flickerdart]

Grab a flaw to get Favored In Guild for another +2. The "guild" in this case being a university or large corporate/national research lab where you get a lot of peer feedback.
You don't need a flaw, those numbers only use 1 feat and I'm assuming that professors are human.

[Calimehter]

You don't need a flaw, those numbers only use 1 feat and I'm assuming that professors are human.

Good point.

My personal experiences with higher academia screamed "flaws!" so loud I didn't stop to think about whether or not they actually *needed* them to hit the target numbers. But that's another story altogether. :smallbiggrin: