STOP making lvl 20 builds

[LucianoAr]

seriously guys, what is it with everyone making lvl 20 multiclassing builds? you know how long you have to play for that IF you ever make it?

youd be playing for months just to get to lvl 10, perhaps make it to 15 if the adventure doesnt go south at some place.

id say we should be making 10lvl builds, 15 at the most.

[Fra Antonio]

Feeling like posting exactly this for quite some time already )

[MaxWilson]

seriously guys, what is it with everyone making lvl 20 multiclassing builds? you know how long you have to play for that IF you ever make it?

youd be playing for months just to get to lvl 10, perhaps make it to 15 if the adventure doesnt go south at some place.

id say we should be making 10lvl builds, 15 at the most.

I wouldn't want to play a character which dead-ends with no endgame. Having a clear goal for level 20 is important to me, even if the character never makes it that far.

I would agree however that you ought to have a level 1-20 build, not just a level 20 build.

[OldTrees1]

I make builds be competent from level 1, mature by level 10, and still have room for growth through level 20. While this is similar to a level 1-20 build, the middle criteria is an improvement I think.

[silveralen]

Agreed, I tend not to post builds unless they keep reasonable competence throughout.

That being said, it isn't particularly hard to do most like that.

[Easy_Lee]

This is my same criticism for many builds, so I agree. People post level 20 builds out of tradition, I think.

But I think it's poor form to post a build which isn't at least competent at most levels. The notable paladin/sorcerer, rogue/shadowmonk, and barbarian/assassin builds generally meet that criteria. But something like a rogue assassin 3/fighter 2/sorcerer 15 generally doesn't.

[MaxWilson]

I make builds be competent from level 1, mature by level 10, and still have room for growth through level 20. While this is similar to a level 1-20 build, the middle criteria is an improvement I think.

I like that.

[MadBear]

I actually don't mind the level 20 builds, but I feel like they need asterisk next to many of them. The biggest part is that people post a level 20 build highlighting that their build doesn't miss many abilities, but completely overlook that they're weaker up until that point.

One common one I see is the "Warlock 2/Sorcerer18 is the better sorcerer".

And while this holds some truth at level 20, it completely ignores the hindrances for every level until that point. You effectively have a character that's 1 full spell casting level behind every other class his entire career, or the warlock part doesn't come until the end in which case it wasn't useful until level 19 anyways. That isn't to say it isn't a good multiclass (it is in fact a good combo), but you need to at least acknowledge you're playing a limited spell casting class with even less spells and spells known per level then you would compared to a straight sorcerer, and that this is a significant drawback to counter what you gain.

[Scirocco]

Maybe do Sor 1/War1 (EB is still a good cantrip without AB)/Sor 8/War2/Sor 18?

[Easy_Lee]

Maybe do Sor 1/War1 (EB is still a good cantrip without AB)/Sor 8/War2/Sor 18?

Not as good as just warlock 2 then sorcerer X, I think. The big thing that build can do is put metamagic on repelling agonizing blasts while still having good (though imperfect) spell progression.

A twinned or quickened or subtle EB with invocations is very powerful by itself. Since it has good range and is force damage, that's most of what your character will need to do in combat. Every level means more sorcery points and "backup" sorcerer slots.

[Perseus]

OP: Don't tell me how to play this game and what I can or can't do on this forum.

I routinely play in high level (16 - 20) one shots. Just because you don't use these builds does not mean that others do not. I actually find these threads to be helpful and inciteful for the most part.

[Easy_Lee]

I actually find these threads to be helpful and inciteful.

Lol, level 20 build threads start arguments. That actually sounds about right.

[DireSickFish]

The big breakpoints levles in this edition are lvl5 and lvl11. Lvl 5 is when meles get a second attack and when full casters get 3rd lvl spells which include staple damage/utility spells. Classes also get a significant power bump at lvl11 from a variety of class abilities. I think any multiclass should address how they stay competitive at these levels.

The Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 18 from my understanding stays competitive by relying on eldritch blast to scale at all lvls. This combos with quickend spell to give them a powerful damage ability.

[MaxWilson]

I actually don't mind the level 20 builds, but I feel like they need asterisk next to many of them. The biggest part is that people post a level 20 build highlighting that their build doesn't miss many abilities, but completely overlook that they're weaker up until that point.

One common one I see is the "Warlock 2/Sorcerer18 is the better sorcerer".

And while this holds some truth at level 20, it completely ignores the hindrances for every level until that point. You effectively have a character that's 1 full spell casting level behind every other class his entire career, or the warlock part doesn't come until the end in which case it wasn't useful until level 19 anyways. That isn't to say it isn't a good multiclass (it is in fact a good combo), but you need to at least acknowledge you're playing a limited spell casting class with even less spells and spells known per level then you would compared to a straight sorcerer, and that this is a significant drawback to counter what you gain.

Casting levels are overrated. Consider the Warlock 2/Sorc 3. He's missing out on a couple of potential 28 HP AoE Fireballs per day, right? But he is perfectly capable of putting out 40-56 HP of nova damage (depends on situation, AC, etc.) instead of those Fireballs. It's not clear that he is actually worse off, and he's certainly more sustainable. That doesn't count as "completely ignoring the hindrances," that's just someone who values the benefits more than the hindrances.

It would be a different and more complicated analysis if you were comparing him to a wizard, but sorcerers don't actually have all that many interesting non-blasting spells, so a damage-based comparison is closer to being valid in this case.

[MadBear]

Casting levels are overrated. Consider the Warlock 2/Sorc 3. He's missing out on a couple of potential 28 HP AoE Fireballs per day, right? But he is perfectly capable of putting out 40-56 HP of nova damage (depends on situation, AC, etc.) instead of those Fireballs. It's not clear that he is actually worse off, and he's certainly more sustainable. That doesn't count as "completely ignoring the hindrances," that's just someone who values the benefits more than the hindrances.

It would be a different and more complicated analysis if you were comparing him to a wizard, but sorcerers don't actually have all that many interesting non-blasting spells, so a damage-based comparison is closer to being valid in this case.

Cool, you think their overrated, and therefore consider it a worthy multi-class. I agree, it's a good multi-class with abilities that make up for what you lose every single level. What you've said however, still doesn't negate the point that you're giving up have higher level spells 2 levels behind other casters. I happen to prefer to get my higher level spells at earliest possible level. I consider it a worthwhile endeavor. That doesn't mean that I'd say straight 20 sorcerers are better, but rather what you lose (agonizing EB's) are matched well against losing spell progression.

Sorcerers definitely do have interesting non-blasting spells options, and completely disregarding them seems like it's just a way to favor your particular side without having to acknowledge that you've paid a cost for that power. At level 17 you get 9th level spells which are extraordinarily powerful. Having to wait until level 19 just to get them is a high price in my opinion.

To put it another way. There's a local popcorn shop in my town that gives away an assortment of different types of popcorn. For $5 dollars you get a bag of 1 flavor of popcorn, or 4 much small bags of different flavors of popcorn (the 4 small bags do not add up to the same quantity as the big bag). You might argue that since you only like the 1 flavor at the shop that the big bag is always the better deal, but that's only because you've made predetermination ahead of time (the same way I might prefer to have 4 different flavors). To a new customer portraying either of our ways of buying popcorn as "right" is silly.

I guess what I'm saying is that you're saying that 1 bag of popcorn is better because that's the only good bag of popcorn anyway, and I'm just trying to point out that those who prefer variety might not actually consider you option to be the best. Or at the very least, acknowledge that there is a limitation on your option.

[AugustNights]

I make builds be competent from level 1, mature by level 10, and still have room for growth through level 20. While this is similar to a level 1-20 build, the middle criteria is an improvement I think.
This.

Every character I build, I like to have a map of where I want to take them, even if they are L.1, I like to know what I'll do at each and every level up. It doesn't take much more time to plan a L.20 character over planning a L.10.
And I may never make it that far, but I've played with GMs that have used plot devices to give out multiple levels at a time.
And I may change career paths for in game reasons, who knows?
But a quick outline doesn't hurt.

[MaxWilson]

I guess what I'm saying is that you're saying that 1 bag of popcorn is better because that's the only good bag of popcorn anyway, and I'm just trying to point out that those who prefer variety might not actually consider you option to be the best. Or at the very least, acknowledge that there is a limitation on your option.

That acknowledgement is implicit. Of course someone who says "unsalted popcorn is better" is making a judgment call. Anyone who says "X is better than Y" is always making a judgment call. Personally, I prefer to explicitly qualify my statements ("X is better than Y in terms of Z") but if I hear someone say "rangers are better than fighters because of Volley," I don't feel that it's incumbent on them to explicitly highlight all the ways that rangers are worse too (no Indomitable, worse single-target burst damage, etc.). It's clearly just an opinion based on the factor that was just highlighted.

You can judge people however you want though, and dislike whatever you want. I'm just saying that I can understand what is meant when someone says this. YMMV.

[MadBear]

That acknowledgement is implicit. Of course someone who says "unsalted popcorn is better" is making a judgment call. Anyone who says "X is better than Y" is always making a judgment call. Personally, I prefer to explicitly qualify my statements ("X is better than Y in terms of Z") but if I hear someone say "rangers are better than fighters because of Volley," I don't feel that it's incumbent on them to explicitly highlight all the ways that rangers are worse too (no Indomitable, worse single-target burst damage, etc.). It's clearly just an opinion based on the factor that was just highlighted.

You can judge people however you want though, and dislike whatever you want. I'm just saying that I can understand what is meant when someone says this. YMMV.

I think were talking past each other on this, because I agree almost universally with your post.

My issue has more to do with threads that start out as: "Help me optimize my sorcerer" and the stock reply is "warlock2/sorcererX" is what a true sorcerer is, and worse, when the OP states they don't like the warlock the reply is "well if you want to play a suboptimal character be my guest". There's a vocal minority out there that states that this particular build is inherent superior without any drawback at all.

Judging from your reply, you're not one of those people, but those are the types of people I'm addressing in my comment, so that's the angle I'm coming from.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, sounds like we agree. If someone says, "Help me optimize my sorcerer," my response would be, "Optimal with respect to what?"

[MukkTB]

I WON'T STOP MAKING LEVEL 20 BUILDS.

That said, I do appreciate when people notate how functional a build is over the course of a 1 to 20 game at each level. This is true even for single class optimization guides. Linear wizards quadratic warriors is kind of a thing if not exactly. For example the moon druid wrecks face levels 2 to 4 in a major way. I particularly care that characters are survivable at levels 1-2, which are deadly terrible things.

[CyberThread]

seriously guys, what is it with everyone making lvl 20 multiclassing builds? you know how long you have to play for that IF you ever make it?

youd be playing for months just to get to lvl 10, perhaps make it to 15 if the adventure doesnt go south at some place.

id say we should be making 10lvl builds, 15 at the most.

How dare you tell me what to post or not post. This community is bigger than you. Is posting a level 20 build against the rules? No.

I will theory craft, if I want to.

[Finieous]

This aggression will not stand! I'm so outraged I'm thinking of making up a Twitter hashtag. :smallfurious:

(I prefer builds that are optimized for Tiers 2 and 3.)

[Perseus]

Lol, level 20 build threads start arguments. That actually sounds about right.

Arguments are the best way to learn on these forums.

You learn something from both sides and then can go from there... You also learn a lot of counter points if you already agree with one side.

Forums like giantitp wouldn't last if it was not for arguments. Actually between arguments and... Well yeah... The internet would not have survived. Everything we make on the net gets boiled down to how much arguments it makes.

Facebook starts a ton, forums start a ton, twitter, and even good old YouTube are all breeding grounds for arguments.

Arguing is what keeps the net together :), it's actually quite beautiful when you think about it.

[LucianoAr]

The big breakpoints levles in this edition are lvl5 and lvl11. Lvl 5 is when meles get a second attack and when full casters get 3rd lvl spells which include staple damage/utility spells. Classes also get a significant power bump at lvl11 from a variety of class abilities. I think any multiclass should address how they stay competitive at these levels.

The Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 18 from my understanding stays competitive by relying on eldritch blast to scale at all lvls. This combos with quickend spell to give them a powerful damage ability.

to everyone who felt offended because someone was telling them what to do... i am sorry, i expressed myself too agressively perhaps.


this post, however, hits gold. id say lvl5 and lvl 11 checkpoints would be an ideal addition to any build, be it lvl 1, 10, or 20.


and then we were all happy =)

[Easy_Lee]

Arguments are the best way to learn on these forums.

You learn something from both sides and then can go from there... You also learn a lot of counter points if you already agree with one side.

Forums like giantitp wouldn't last if it was not for arguments. Actually between arguments and... Well yeah... The internet would not have survived. Everything we make on the net gets boiled down to how much arguments it makes.

Facebook starts a ton, forums start a ton, twitter, and even good old YouTube are all breeding grounds for arguments.

Arguing is what keeps the net together :), it's actually quite beautiful when you think about it.

I was just making a joke about your spelling insightful as "inciteful", but that works too.

[Perseus]

I was just making a joke about your spelling insightful as "inciteful", but that works too.

Yeah I know, but I have proficiency and expertise in the Charisma (Bull Excrement) skill.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah I know, but I have proficiency and expertise in the Charisma (Bull Excrement) skill.

I tried to look up "Bull**** proficiency" and found this image. Can Bunny Shoes as a stand-in for BS be a thing now?

http://lparchive.org/Star-Ocean-The-Second-Story/Update%2039/7-PSOGL2_122.jpg

[Jamesps]

Out of respect for the OP's wishes I submit the following build for my next character:

Eldritch Knight 11, Warlock 2, Sorcerer 9.

He's going to be the awesome.

[Eslin]

seriously guys, what is it with everyone making lvl 20 multiclassing builds? you know how long you have to play for that IF you ever make it?

youd be playing for months just to get to lvl 10, perhaps make it to 15 if the adventure doesnt go south at some place.

id say we should be making 10lvl builds, 15 at the most.

NEVER! Might as well plan the character all the way through, a lot of people like doing that kind of thing - there are plenty who enjoy building characters they're never going to get to play.

On the whole, you build a character based around how useful it will be at any given level - you want a character that can always contribute, so if you've got that you might as well plan all the way to 20 if that interests you.

[GAA]

Phhh, you can do that if you want, but you're missing out of the awesomeness that is Barbarian 2/Bard 1/Cleric 1/Druid 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Sorcerer 2/Warlock 1/Wizard 1.

10th level caster, so they'd get 4 first, 3 second - fourth, and 2 fifth slots(but can only learn and prepare 1st level spells. But who wants wants higher level anyways).

27 point buy, variant human, 14 14 14 14 14 14(we already have to get 13 to multiclass, might as well go even in everything), and Linguist(who doesn't love more options, this guy does, plus how are our opponents going to know how awesome we are if we lack the ability to tell them).

As for background, lets go ahead and grab acolyte, 2 languages, and we are the most pious person.


No extra ability scores(we are already good enough in everything), don't want to get unbalanced.
Rage
2 seperate ways of calculating ac(that both come to the same number, we arn't grabbing our shield. This ensures we can't scew up and we'll always know our ac)
Reckless attack and Danger sense(better attacks and no worrying about traps)
2d6 inspiration dice(no jack of all trades, don't need high skill checks, just all the skills)
we get a domain(maybe nature, we got two classes that like it, and they arn't those aweful spells that scale with level)(but not channel, too iconic, and we don't want to be mistaken for a cleric, we're better than that)
we pick up drudic(gotta love them languages), and the inability to wear metal.
wildshape to CR 1/4, for 1 hr per day. Totally useful
We get a Fighting style(great weapon fighting, cause who doesn't want a giant awesome sword that can't be made of metal)
Second wind(yeah healing), and an action surge(but we shouldn't use it lest we tire, plus, what would we do with that other action anyway)
Unarmed strike, will really complement our fighting style
2 mindblowing ki points
Another fighting style, we should grab Dueling for this one.
Smite, for extra damage to our attacks.
Favored enemy(lets pick up something useful and fun, like celestials. As a paladin/cleric type we'll be fighting those a lot)
Natural explorer, so we can travel
Yet another fighting style, lets grab archery(more options)
Thieves cant, Hells yeah, more ways to talk
1d6 sneak attack, thats gonna sting
We have to choose two skills to double(dang specialization), lets grab thieves tools and Animal Handeling(I mean, who isn't more awesome than aquaman or snow white)
2 sorcery points to add flexibility to our spell list, (no metamagic to spend it on, too complicated)
We have to choose a patron, lets choose the Fiend, i'm sure our paladin/clerics god will be cool with shareing. and we get 3 temp hit points when we kill someone.
And a nice spellbook


All and all, the best build.

[Jamesps]

Phhh, you can do that if you want, but you're missing out of the awesomeness that is Barbarian 2/Bard 1/Cleric 1/Druid 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Sorcerer 2/Warlock 1/Wizard 1.

I'd play the hell out of that. Though I'd want to take Warlock 2 so I could get the invocation that let me impersonate a stable of first and second level characters at will.

[GAA]

I'd play the hell out of that. Though I'd want to take Warlock 2 so I could get the invocation that let me impersonate a stable of first and second level characters at will.


You can now read about all the awesome things you get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18437893&postcount=30). Truely the best build.