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GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-22, 12:18 AM
So, I've been working on a homebrew setting in bits and pieces for years. I love most of the concepts that I based the setting on, but I don't really know...

I feel like the more specifically I define the setting, the less I enjoy it. But I can't work with broad strokes. What should I do?

Ryunosuke
2014-11-22, 12:30 AM
Well...what parts are you not enjoying about it? Is it the work into building a full in depth history or specific aspects of it?

GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-22, 02:13 AM
Well...what parts are you not enjoying about it? Is it the work into building a full in depth history or specific aspects of it?

Well, my setting has become somewhat of a mishmash of every good idea I've ever had. It's based around a core concept (goblins have civilized, and control many aspects of trade and industry), but I'll try bolting on as many other ideas as possible, which I feel makes for a good "setting feel" but the execution is meh. Also, I tried adding Xorvintaal to the setting, but then I realized I don't want to write rules for it.

Also...mapping. I end up with these final fantasy style maps where everything is pretty distant with nothing in between, or...I'll want players to see too much of the world, and get frustrated at how point A is too far or too close to point B.

Ryunosuke
2014-11-22, 02:22 AM
Well, my setting has become somewhat of a mishmash of every good idea I've ever had. It's based around a core concept (goblins have civilized, and control many aspects of trade and industry), but I'll try bolting on as many other ideas as possible, which I feel makes for a good "setting feel" but the execution is meh. Also, I tried adding Xorvintaal to the setting, but then I realized I don't want to write rules for it.

Also...mapping. I end up with these final fantasy style maps where everything is pretty distant with nothing in between, or...I'll want players to see too much of the world, and get frustrated at how point A is too far or too close to point B.

Hm...Not sure what Xorvinthal is but the mapping issue seems relatively standard for many DM's I think xD;;

The goblins thing is quite interesting actually and I relate to the wanting to add every good idea thing. I am usually very partial to the Forgotten Realms setting myself so I tend to incorporate several aspects from it a lot even in homebrew worlds, like Red wizards and the like. I find it usually easier to start with a single continent first, start with the topography. if there's a lot of 'nothing' between places, add some small towns, villages...mountains or lakes even. in fact a lake can provide a boar trip to other areas like of like the mediteranean maybe with inland islands as well for more detail? Do you know what the main plot hooks or adventures will be?

GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-22, 04:23 AM
well, I guess my issue is I just don't like defining it. I have a few major tenants in place so that the players have something to do. I have a guild run by the Goblin government that sends adventurers out to research areas of cultural significance.

I have a war between the two gods of the creation myth, but the big overarching plot was supposed to involve Xorvintaal, which is a thing from MM5. It's a worldspanning game that dragons play for territory and hoards. basically, the Dragons used to play this game, but they went to sleep after playing it almost destroyed the world. they're waking back up several thousand years later and resuming the game. I'm starting to scrap this though, because I don't want to have to write the rules. Even in the book it's brought up in its supposed to be vague and complicated, but it seemed too vague for me. so now I'm plotless.

Ryunosuke
2014-11-22, 10:37 AM
well, I guess my issue is I just don't like defining it. I have a few major tenants in place so that the players have something to do. I have a guild run by the Goblin government that sends adventurers out to research areas of cultural significance.

I have a war between the two gods of the creation myth, but the big overarching plot was supposed to involve Xorvintaal, which is a thing from MM5. It's a worldspanning game that dragons play for territory and hoards. basically, the Dragons used to play this game, but they went to sleep after playing it almost destroyed the world. they're waking back up several thousand years later and resuming the game. I'm starting to scrap this though, because I don't want to have to write the rules. Even in the book it's brought up in its supposed to be vague and complicated, but it seemed too vague for me. so now I'm plotless.

Given the nature of most dragons, especially the Lawful Evil ones, I would imagine something like this to work akin to a wird mixture of chess, and the methods in which Drow battle for power in the underdark (assuming you've read the Sojurn trilogy). A lot of plotting and pawn play I would suspect so that the dragon's themselves aren't doing the dirty work themselves, with things like counter raids into another dragon's territory and the like, with liars only being directly involved after much work to locate one (they would all be hidden obviously) and then a possibly battle to finally slay or 'check mate' their opponent and claim all that is theirs. This could get more interesting with undead dragons like vampiric or dracoliches being involved with undead minions or necromancers under their control to add more variety to the 'game'.

That is my own take personally and I'd likely use that as the general basis with maybe a few extra 'rules' as i think they makes sense in any setting I use but generally the exact rules of gameplay wouldn't be discernible by players and you could even say its a subconcious thing. That even the dragons cant fully explain it like their inherent hoarding habits.

Ryunosuke
2014-11-22, 12:07 PM
OK after getting some time set aside to look into the actual description of the game, it seems I wasn't too far off, save for the restriction on getting any opposing dragon slain. But the raids on hoards and hidden liars still seems fitting, not to mention a unique theme would be something like having each dragon getting a small cabal of specialist wizards that suits their species? Like illusionists would be fitting for a blue dragon, or copper dragon, but evokers of only cold magic for a white dragon, and of course necromancers for undead dragons and the like. Sorcerers could also be used, likely many with the dragonblood heritage feat and posibly having a slightly higher ranking among the pawns than the wizards due to the connection to dragonkind.

This would also allow a much wider use for the many prestige classes of the Draconomicon since many of them depend on having connections to dragons (dragonslayer of course would be in direct opposition to the rules however hoard raiders and the like are perfect)

I'm going to assume the exact extent of the abilities granted in exchange for permanent loss of their free sorcerer spellcasting was not explicitly stated?
If not then I could probably write up some basic leader-esque anilities that would make sense such as a special tattoo marked on all of their more important pawns, likely granting some kind of boost and connecting them telepathically so long as they remain on the same plane? A few other effects could also be included based on what the dragon's effective caster level would be at their current age.

GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-22, 05:44 PM
OK after getting some time set aside to look into the actual description of the game, it seems I wasn't too far off, save for the restriction on getting any opposing dragon slain. But the raids on hoards and hidden liars still seems fitting, not to mention a unique theme would be something like having each dragon getting a small cabal of specialist wizards that suits their species? Like illusionists would be fitting for a blue dragon, or copper dragon, but evokers of only cold magic for a white dragon, and of course necromancers for undead dragons and the like. Sorcerers could also be used, likely many with the dragonblood heritage feat and posibly having a slightly higher ranking among the pawns than the wizards due to the connection to dragonkind.

This would also allow a much wider use for the many prestige classes of the Draconomicon since many of them depend on having connections to dragons (dragonslayer of course would be in direct opposition to the rules however hoard raiders and the like are perfect)

I'm going to assume the exact extent of the abilities granted in exchange for permanent loss of their free sorcerer spellcasting was not explicitly stated?
If not then I could probably write up some basic leader-esque anilities that would make sense such as a special tattoo marked on all of their more important pawns, likely granting some kind of boost and connecting them telepathically so long as they remain on the same plane? A few other effects could also be included based on what the dragon's effective caster level would be at their current age.

I know what xorvintaal SHOULD be, I'm just at the point where I don't want to keep track of it. It seems like an excuse for the DM to make calls off the top of his head, creating random rules on the fly to suit the plot. Honestly, I feel I'd be much happier if I just changed it to an all out dragon war.

Ryunosuke
2014-11-22, 10:33 PM
Who said you even had to keep track at all? Depending on how the players become involved in the game itself, there really isn't a whole lot you need to monitor besides the dragon(s) they are directly interacting with.

jqavins
2014-11-23, 10:28 AM
Who said you even had to keep track at all? Depending on how the players become involved in the game itself, there really isn't a whole lot you need to monitor besides the dragon(s) they are directly interacting with.
My thought exactly. If the characters were to be playing xorvintaal then you would need all the rules defined. Otherwise, all you need to show your (real world) players is the results of the dragons' playing; what matters isn't how the dragons play but how their play effects the world.

You've defined the rules right here in this thread as much as they needs to be defined: the rules are mysterious, complex, and known only to the dragons who play the game. You could even make them explicitly secret, but that would only tempt the characters to try to learn them. You can decide that something about the game makes it impossible for anyone but dragons to understand the rules.

So, the party learns that some dragons over here made some moves in their xorvintaal game and this happened as a result. Done and done.

On another note, I have suffered sometimes from bolt-on syndrome. I try to include every good idea, but I end up with a hodge-podge of good ideas with no theme or sense. Sometimes you've got to let a good idea go, even though it can be painful. "You were a really neat idea, Mr. War-Between-the-Thieves-and-Assassins-Guilds, but you just don't fit, so I'm going to have to let you go. So, that's it. Do you want some tea? It's chamomile." You can file the good ideas that don't fit away for another day, or give them new life by posting them here for other DMs to use.

Next, on mapping. I hate mapping, as I have all the artistic ability of an average five year old. (I mean it; there are plenty of above average five year olds that can outdraw me any day of the week.) That said, if you chronically have stuff too far apart then your world is probably too big. Either concentrate on a single continent (as Ryunosuke suggested) or jsut make the whole planet smaller. And the single continent doesn't have to be Eurasia sized either; it's perfectly alright to use an Austrailia or South America sized continent. Try this:

Put in your major regions first. Countries or empires, vast wastes that you want there, oceans separating these countries from those, etc. Place them all at the distances from one another that you want them to be. Then draw continental outlines around them, and fix a globe size around that. If you end up with nothing but, say, Australia and the British Isles on a planet the size of the Moon, so be it.

Finally, something you may already be doing, but I couldn't tell from what's been posted so far. Use the world before it's complete. Start playing in the world before it's perfect, but be open with the players that that's what you're doing. "There may be some changes and ret-con pronouncements coming, but let's give it a try anyhow!" There's nothing like play-testing to both shake out the bugs and keep the creatinve juices flowing.

GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-23, 10:48 PM
My thought exactly. If the characters were to be playing xorvintaal then you would need all the rules defined. Otherwise, all you need to show your (real world) players is the results of the dragons' playing; what matters isn't how the dragons play but how their play effects the world.

You've defined the rules right here in this thread as much as they needs to be defined: the rules are mysterious, complex, and known only to the dragons who play the game. You could even make them explicitly secret, but that would only tempt the characters to try to learn them. You can decide that something about the game makes it impossible for anyone but dragons to understand the rules.

So, the party learns that some dragons over here made some moves in their xorvintaal game and this happened as a result. Done and done.

On another note, I have suffered sometimes from bolt-on syndrome. I try to include every good idea, but I end up with a hodge-podge of good ideas with no theme or sense. Sometimes you've got to let a good idea go, even though it can be painful. "You were a really neat idea, Mr. War-Between-the-Thieves-and-Assassins-Guilds, but you just don't fit, so I'm going to have to let you go. So, that's it. Do you want some tea? It's chamomile." You can file the good ideas that don't fit away for another day, or give them new life by posting them here for other DMs to use.

Next, on mapping. I hate mapping, as I have all the artistic ability of an average five year old. (I mean it; there are plenty of above average five year olds that can outdraw me any day of the week.) That said, if you chronically have stuff too far apart then your world is probably too big. Either concentrate on a single continent (as Ryunosuke suggested) or jsut make the whole planet smaller. And the single continent doesn't have to be Eurasia sized either; it's perfectly alright to use an Austrailia or South America sized continent. Try this:

Put in your major regions first. Countries or empires, vast wastes that you want there, oceans separating these countries from those, etc. Place them all at the distances from one another that you want them to be. Then draw continental outlines around them, and fix a globe size around that. If you end up with nothing but, say, Australia and the British Isles on a planet the size of the Moon, so be it.

Finally, something you may already be doing, but I couldn't tell from what's been posted so far. Use the world before it's complete. Start playing in the world before it's perfect, but be open with the players that that's what you're doing. "There may be some changes and ret-con pronouncements coming, but let's give it a try anyhow!" There's nothing like play-testing to both shake out the bugs and keep the creatinve juices flowing.

Yeah, but that's not how I play. If something like this is to be done, it has to be done right. I don't want to use it as an excuse to do as the plot demands, I want it to be consistent, in a behind-the-scenes manner. I don't want to do that.

Ryunosuke
2014-11-23, 11:53 PM
It is a game played over the course of centuries. Honestly I can't even guarantee much will occur at all during the lives of most PCs at all anyways sans time travel. In the meantime, I found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-128165.html) which may help.

jqavins
2014-11-24, 09:13 AM
Yeah, but that's not how I play. If something like this is to be done, it has to be done right. I don't want to use it as an excuse to do as the plot demands, I want it to be consistent, in a behind-the-scenes manner. I don't want to do that.
Suit yourself, but consider this: you are the one deciding on the moves that the dragons make behind the scenes. You'll inevitably end up choosing those moves so as to manipulate the results to suit the plot while also being consistent with the dragons' own goals. Using strict behind the scenes rules has only three effects:

It forces you to do a bunch of extra work figuring out the moves you need to get the results you want. (And that's not counting the work of establishing the rules.)
It restrains the range of possible results to a "realistic" set, which I gather is what you nominally want. But if the game is sufficiently complex, as I also gather it is, then that restriction will be trivial.
It gives you a personal sense of satisfaction and accomplishment; no one else will ever know how cleverly you wove the moves to advance the game.


If the sense of satisfaction is not worth the work, then you might need to think of this as part of the bolt-on problem as a neat idea that doesn't fit (because you don't find it workable.)

And incidentally, where the heck do you get off saying that doing it in a workable and practical manner that doesn't happen to fit your personality is "doing it wrong?"

GoblinGilmartin
2014-11-24, 03:33 PM
And incidentally, where the heck do you get off saying that doing it in a workable and practical manner that doesn't happen to fit your personality is "doing it wrong?"

I technically didn't say that. But within the way that I personally like to play the game, it could be considered as such.