Poison rules are out, how do we abuse them?

[Eslin]

WotC has released another small preview of the DMG (http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1416612283936.pdf) and given us a list of poisons. From the PHB we know that poisons last one minute, take an action to apply and can be applied to one melee weapon or three pieces of ammunition. A note on the morality and legality of poisons: Expect ingested or contact poisons to be illegal in a lot of areas, considering they're basically assassination tools. Injury poisons may be made illegal by association (laws aren't always logical, and 'all poisons are bad because some are!' is an easy association to make), but are less likely to be illegal than other types, since they're purely a combat aid rather than something you can slip into someone's food. Regarding poisons and morality: injury poisons allow you to end the fight earlier, thus minimizing the chance of good people getting hurt and some incapacitation poisons can be used to end a fight non lethally. Depending on your character's point of view using poison might not be lawful, but it's definitely not evil.

So, unlike 3.5 the poison damage seems to be immediate and does not only last one hit, meaning it scales directly with the amount of hits you get in - making rogues some of the worst poison users, though a DM would probably rule that fast hands could be used to make application a bonus action, and making fighters get the best use.

So, how do we abuse?

Minor conjuration could probably be used - can liquids be objects, and does 'a jar of wyvern poison' count?

Creation and fabricate seems likely to work 12-24 hours to make non animal based poisons.

Fabricate by itself can be used to speed up creation - if you have the ingredients, oil of taggit takes 80 days to make because 5e's crafting rules hate mundanes, while fabricate means you can spend 1 minute to make a heap of the stuff.

Polymorph can be used for serpent venom - polymorph a friend into a giant poisonous snake, harvest away.

True polymorph and shapechange can be used for purple worm poison - merely turn into one and you get an unlimited supply of make a DC19 con save or take 12d6 damage on every hit. Shapechange is the preferable choice, since if the DM rules you run dry you can just reform yourself.

Barring the spells, you can always go hunting on your own time. Wyvern poison's worth 1200g a dose, if you can capture said CR6 creature and put it in chains you could harvest thousands of gold worth of poisons a day.

What other uses can we find?

Giant2005: Have a druid wildshape into a giant poisonous snake or if allowed by the DM any other poisonous creature.

[Slipperychicken]

Regarding poisons and morality: injury poisons allow you to end the fight earlier, thus minimizing the chance of good people getting hurt and some incapacitation poisons can be used to end a fight non lethally. Depending on your character's point of view using poison might not be lawful, but it's definitely not evil.

Who cares? Alignment isn't a requirement for anything. Being evil doesn't even make you ping the Paladin-Radar. Hell, you can be a Paladin and still be evil.

[Eslin]

Who cares? Alignment isn't a requirement for anything. Being evil doesn't even make you ping the Paladin-Radar. Hell, you can be a Paladin and still be evil.

There are reasons to worry about the morality of your actions other than mechanical benefit.

[Giant2005]

The big X-factor which the book stupidly doesn't seem to consider, is how often can you milk a creature for its poison?

[Eslin]

The big X-factor which the book stupidly doesn't seem to consider, is how often can you milk a creature for its poison?

Yeah, wasn't sure how you'd calculate that one. I figure any creature has enough for 10 or so attacks, and it'd replenish over time if they were well fed. One charge per hour, up to a limit of ten?

[Shadow]

Why does the title of this thread not surprise me?

[Eslin]

Why does the title of this thread not surprise me?

I call it 'creative ways to obtain and use poison', others call it 'abuse', I figured I'd cut to the chase.

[Giant2005]

The obvious avenue for attaining cheap and easy poison which you missed is by having a Giant Poisonous Snake as a Ranger's animal companion. A druid could be milked just the same via Wild Shape (Although I'd be willing to bet a lot of DMs would rule that the poison would disappear when the Druid reverts back to his human form).

Something else to consider is that the poisons described in the book are described as "Sample Poisons" which implies the list isn't all-encompassing. It stands to reason that you could milk some poison from a wide range of critters that aren't listed there. If so, Flying Snakes would make for some good milking with their save-less poison damage.

[silveralen]

Why does the title of this thread not surprise me?

You posses basic pattern recognition perhaps?

[Eslin]

The obvious avenue for attaining cheap and easy poison which you missed is by having a Giant Poisonous Snake as a Ranger's animal companion. A druid could be milked just the same via Wild Shape (Although I'd be willing to bet a lot of DMs would rule that the poison would disappear when the Druid reverts back to his human form).

Something else to consider is that the poisons described in the book are described as "Sample Poisons" which implies the list isn't all-encompassing. It stands to reason that you could milk some poison from a wide range of critters that aren't listed there. If so, Flying Snakes would make for some good milking with their save-less poison damage.

The ranger one's not a terrible idea, but it does force someone to take the game's worst subclass just for free poison - if they weren't going to take ranger already, I'd rather wait until level 7 and have someone polymorph into a giant scorpion for venom harvesting.

[Jacque]

There are reasons to worry about the morality of your actions other than mechanical benefit.

A rare but delightful sight to see you argue from a non-mechanical point of view :)

[Eslin]

A rare but delightful sight to see you argue from a non-mechanical point of view :)

Huh? I argue mechanics from a mechanical point of view. I argue fluff from a fluff point of view. 5e introduced a lot of mechanics and very little fluff, so most discussion is mechanics focused.




Side note, regarding polymorph/wild shape etc: If your DM rules things from creatures disappear after transformations end, then don't fret, he's actually handed you a potentially useful tool. Use transformations and spells like flesh to stone/stone shape, fabricate and true polymorph to craft things with body parts or products and then cancel the transformation to have them disappear - very useful for crafty traps and confusing enemies. If you have a female enemy NPC you want to hurt but not kill (say a political opponent who is doing evil but you can't kill or mind control her), turn into a humanoid of her type, get her pregnant then transform back partway through or after the pregnancy for extreme trauma. Got an anti-hero or villain that has strong morals but is nevertheless doing the wrong thing? He's not a bad person, but you need them to stop and you don't want to kill him or make him spend his life as a frog - just true polymorph him into a new body and mind control him into getting someone pregnant, now he can't turn back or he'll kill his kids.

In fact, that's a great way of curbing local pest problems, potentially removing species - true polymorph a bunch of things into rats, let them breed, use spells to keep the rat alive for ages. Do it with a bunch of rats all over the place and eventually every rat will be related to them, then kill the original rats and suddenly all rats everywhere are gone. Back to mundane tools, you can use it to do things like craft and then disappear bridges or floors, if you have time for the long con then you can do things like use flesh to stone/stone shape and true polymorph to stick a bunch of huge rocks into a construction site, wait 'til it's done and then turn the guy back for instant castle destruction. Or chop a bit off someone polymorphed, turn it into a sword and trick your opponent into fighting with it. Or make sure most of what someone eats is bits chopped off something you polymorphed, then transform it back once you're sure it'll kill them - if done carefully, a great way to assassinate local dragons.

If they don't disappear that's a pity, but on the plus side it does mean you get as much very expensive poison as you want for free.

[Chd]

Some Ideas



Create Origami Spider.
Polymorph it to a living/'real' spider
???
PROFIT

You milk the little f**ker daily, and there's enough venom to kill an entire gang.

AND/OR



Get a Barrel
Ferment feces, Hallucinogenic mushrooms over X days
???
PROFIT!

Feces contains a plethora of bacteria, Hallucinogenic Mushrooms added into the ferment means the bacteria have food, as well as add a mind-altering secondary effect to the Liquid.

AND/OR

Fabricate Gold
Grind it into dust
???
PROFIT!

Gold is a great alternative to arsenic or mercury, especially if your mark has been taking either to build a tolerance to it. Surprisingly few people realize how toxic it is, and even if Gold is discovered to be what killed your mark, most would attribute it to their greed in life.

[McBars]

Some Ideas



Create Origami Spider.
Polymorph it to a living/'real' spider
???
PROFIT

You milk the little f**ker daily, and there's enough venom to kill an entire gang.

AND/OR



Get a Barrel
Ferment feces, Hallucinogenic mushrooms over X days
???
PROFIT!

Feces contains a plethora of bacteria, Hallucinogenic Mushrooms added into the ferment means the bacteria have food, as well as add a mind-altering secondary effect to the Liquid.

AND/OR

Fabricate Gold
Grind it into dust
???
PROFIT!

Gold is a great alternative to arsenic or mercury, especially if your mark has been taking either to build a tolerance to it. Surprisingly few people realize how toxic it is, and even if Gold is discovered to be what killed your mark, most would attribute it to their greed in life.

Gold-halide salts are hepatotoxic and nephrotoxic. Gold-cyanide complexes are toxic because they liberate cyanide.

Metallic gold is a remarkably inert substance with very low toxicity in it's elemental form, The blood levels achieved via the "dose" of dust you've described that is applied to a weapon used to make a puncture wound would not be significant.

[Chd]

Gold-halide salts are hepatotoxic and nephrotoxic. Gold-cyanide complexes are toxic because they liberate cyanide.

Metallic gold is a remarkably inert substance with very low toxicity in it's elemental form, The blood levels achieved via the "dose" of dust you've described that is applied to a weapon used to make a puncture wound would not be significant.

True, But IIRC, Poisons are swallowed or inhaled.

I forgot to add that the Gold Dust is added to their meal via a herb mix, or by blowing it into their face with 'Gust of Wind'

The idea is that ingested Gold dust reacts with HCl in the stomach to create AuCl, creating Lethargy/weariness that suggest tiredness as opposed to a Toxin.

The longer it takes for the target's physician to realize that the target is poisoned, as opposed to tired, the longer it has to act in their system.

TBH, In game, I poison the target's food with the gold, he feels tired and retires to his quarters for the evening.

I then enter his room, cast silence, Darkness and kill him while he has disadvantage.

Sad when my Mage with a Criminal Background is more effective then the Party's Rogue isn't it?

[Eslin]

True, But IIRC, Poisons are swallowed or inhaled.

I forgot to add that the Gold Dust is added to their meal via a herb mix, or by blowing it into their face with 'Gust of Wind'

The idea is that ingested Gold dust reacts with HCl in the stomach to create AuCl, creating Lethargy/weariness that suggest tiredness as opposed to a Toxin.

The longer it takes for the target's physician to realize that the target is poisoned, as opposed to tired, the longer it has to act in their system.

TBH, In game, I poison the target's food with the gold, he feels tired and retires to his quarters for the evening.

I then enter his room, cast silence, Darkness and kill him while he has disadvantage.

Sad when my Mage with a Criminal Background is more effective then the Party's Rogue isn't it?

Why not just polymorph a cow into an aphid, drop that in his dinner and watch him explode when the aphid dies and the polymorph wears off?

[McBars]

True, But IIRC, Poisons are swallowed or inhaled.

I forgot to add that the Gold Dust is added to their meal via a herb mix, or by blowing it into their face with 'Gust of Wind'

The idea is that ingested Gold dust reacts with HCl in the stomach to create AuCl, creating Lethargy/weariness that suggest tiredness as opposed to a Toxin.

The longer it takes for the target's physician to realize that the target is poisoned, as opposed to tired, the longer it has to act in their system.

TBH, In game, I poison the target's food with the gold, he feels tired and retires to his quarters for the evening.

I then enter his room, cast silence, Darkness and kill him while he has disadvantage.

Sad when my Mage with a Criminal Background is more effective then the Party's Rogue isn't it?

Good idea in theory, but in practice the digestive juices in your stomach & the enzymes in your gut are unable convert metallic gold to gold salts. It is a very inert material. It isn't even absorbed across the gut lumen. Your targets will just end up dropping a large shiny dook.

[Inevitability]

I like this. A lot. I had a player waste 4/5th of his starting wealth on a flask of basic poison, so it is good to see there are options that are actually useable now.

Diseases look interesting, and Cackle Fever is going to get a special place in my upcoming homebrew campaign world for sure.

Also, may whoever made the DMG so that the page on Madness was cut off be devoured by a swarm of giant weasels. :smallannoyed:

[Ellington]

Assassins benefit greatly since they are proficient with poison and the poison damage can crit. A level 20 assassin can deal roughly 320 damage with a single sneak attack and surprise assuming his target fails a DC 19 Con save. Granted it will cost him 2000gp every time, but in certain situations that can be more than worth it (dropping the BBEG, taking out a high bounty mark etc.). Also worth noting that the attack won't miss because of stroke of luck so I don't think anyone will outshine the assassin at reliably assassinating stuff :smallbiggrin:

[Eslin]

Assassins benefit greatly since they are proficient with poison and the poison damage can crit. A level 20 assassin can deal roughly 320 damage with a single sneak attack and surprise assuming his target fails a DC 19 Con save. Granted it will cost him 2000gp every time, but in certain situations that can be more than worth it (dropping the BBEG, taking out a high bounty mark etc.). Also worth noting that the attack won't miss because of stroke of luck so I don't think anyone will outshine the assassin at reliably assassinating stuff :smallbiggrin:

Not sure about that, at that point the fighter can just attack 8 times, which will do more damage.

[Ellington]

Not sure about that, at that point the fighter can just attack 8 times, which will do more damage.

That is assuming the fighter hits all of his attacks. The great thing about the assassin is how reliable it is with stroke of luck. I'd also imagine an assassin would have an easier time sneaking up on someone than a fighter.

Also, are you sure the fighter can come anywhere close to 300 damage in a round?

[Eslin]

That is assuming the fighter hits all of his attacks. The great thing about the assassin is how reliable it is with stroke of luck. I'd also imagine an assassin would have an easier time sneaking up on someone than a fighter.

Which makes them better at assassination, not at poison use. In general a fighter's going to do far more damage with poison than a rogue is from sheer weight of attacks.

[Perseus]

Does this work, the rogue uses Fast Hands to apply poison to the Fighter's weapon?

I'm AFB so I don't know the wording on the use object action and fast hands.

[LucianoAr]

is it me or is 200gp for 6 damage one time a ridiculous amount of money?

as im seeing it poison is not even worth it, unless you have an unlimited supply of money

[Eslin]

is it me or is 200gp for 6 damage one time a ridiculous amount of money?

as im seeing it poison is not even worth it, unless you have an unlimited supply of money

Which is why part of the thread's focus is getting poisons for free.

[McBars]

Conjure or hell even trade for bitter almonds, which are nearly as common as the safe sweet almonds we eat.

Crush or grind them up and let them sit in a jar of alcohol to extract the cyanide containing compounds. Distill the extract to concentrate the cyanide. Deadly, cheap

[Eslin]

Conjure or hell even trade for bitter almonds, which are nearly as common as the safe sweet almonds we eat.

Crush or grind them up and let them sit in a jar of alcohol to extract the cyanide containing compounds. Distill the extract to concentrate the cyanide. Deadly, cheap

Eh, your DM would be well within his rights to require a high nature or intelligence check for that sort of thing.

[McBars]

Eh, your DM would be well within his rights to require a high nature or intelligence check for that sort of thing.

Wouldn't he do the same for many of these exotic animals and their poison glands that we've been talking about?

The danger of bitter almond extract if not the presents and identification of cyanide in it has been known for hundreds of years is it was a common flavoring agent in baking recipes as well as a (dangerous) medicine

[Eslin]

Wouldn't he do the same for many of these exotic animals and their poison glands that we've been talking about?

The danger of bitter almond extract if not the presents and identification of cyanide in it has been known for hundreds of years is it was a common flavoring agent in baking recipes as well as a (dangerous) medicine

One that may not exist at all and medicine often being replaced by cure spells. I'll add it to the list, but it requires much more DM approval than anything else there - D&D and real world physics don't often interact.

[Sartharina]

Poisons are stupidly expensive again?
is it me or is 200gp for 6 damage one time a ridiculous amount of money?

as im seeing it poison is not even worth it, unless you have an unlimited supply of money Actually its 200 gp for 6 damage every attack for 10 rounds

[Eslin]

Poisons are stupidly expensive again? Actually its 200 gp for 6 damage every attack for 10 rounds

Which is still ridiculously expensive. But it's not a problem - players have always resorted to alternate solutions in order to get poisons, and it means once they do they can sell them for ridiculous amounts.

[McBars]

One that may not exist at all and medicine often being replaced by cure spells. I'll add it to the list, but it requires much more DM approval than anything else there - D&D and real world physics don't often interact.

Agreed about the physics part and yet people on this board, yourself included, frequently referred to or invoke the natural sciences or draw parallels to all sorts of "real world" phenomena to support their arguments.

Let's not make a huge deal about this but surely almonds or stone fruits, which contain lower concentrations of cyanide, exist in most DND worlds. People eat them, and like so many other plant derived toxins or poisons throughout history, they probably learned about their dangerous potential via eating at one time or another.

They also would be more common, less expensive, and easier to handle as poison reagents than attempting to milk A live poisonous creature.

[pwykersotz]

For those of us who can't go to the linked site at work and want this in-thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=65162&d=1416595484&thumb=1
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=65163&d=1416595486&thumb=1

[Eslin]

Agreed about the physics part and yet people on this board, yourself included, frequently referred to or invoke the natural sciences to support their arguments.

Let's not make a huge deal about this but surely almonds or stone fruits, which contain lower concentrations of cyanide, exist in most DND worlds. People eat them, and like so many other plant derived toxins or poisons throughout, they probably learned about their dangerous potential via eating at one time or another.

They also would be more common, less expensive, and easier to handle as poison reagents than attempting to milk A live poisonous creature.

Yes, I do, and if I were DMing I'd let you track down almonds and render them for cyanide with a few relevant checks.

But your suggestion is still rending down an object that is at best assumed to exist in order to create a poison which has no rules, and some DMs aren't going to like that - please contrast the fact that crafting a basic dc10 con save 1d4 damage poison takes 40 full days of work and requires 100g of basic materials.

[Ellington]

Which is still ridiculously expensive. But it's not a problem - players have always resorted to alternate solutions in order to get poisons, and it means once they do they can sell them for ridiculous amounts.

Is that really that expensive, though? 200 gp is obviously quite a lot of money, but the damage it grants is nothing to scoff at. An extra 6 damage per hit can make an otherwise challening battle quite trivial since it can really amp up your damage. You could think of it as the martial way of going all in. You won't do it every fight, just the ones that are super hard. I think poison would become kind of trivial if people had it up every fight.

[pwykersotz]

Which is still ridiculously expensive. But it's not a problem - players have always resorted to alternate solutions in order to get poisons, and it means once they do they can sell them for ridiculous amounts.

Eh...you gotta have a market. I mean, I'm not a qualified economist, and if they want to sell 1000 daggers at a major metropolis, I'm not going to start altering prices. But sufficient quantities of poison being sold sounds like you've made a contact who can move a certain amount in a certain time. You might find a 'Gus' who can move a lot, but that in itself involves the DM enabling you to do so.

Poison would certainly make for a windfall profit, but it's not exactly abusably sustainable.

[Eslin]

Is that really that expensive, though? 200 gp is obviously quite a lot of money, but the damage it grants is nothing to scoff at. An extra 6 damage per hit can make an otherwise challening battle quite trivial since it can really amp up your damage. You could think of it as the martial way of going all in. You won't do it every fight, just the ones that are super hard. I think poison would become kind of trivial if people had it up every fight.

How's that 6 damage per hit? It's 1d4 on a failed DC10 save - many monsters will never fail it, but even your average orc will only fail that 1/3 of the time. That's not an extra 6 damage per hit, that's anywhere from a bit less than 1 none at all. If you're doing it only for super hard enemies you're rapidly approaching no damage at all, since tough enemies frequently have high constitution.

Poison of this level is kind of trivial - the basic poison's effects are minor, so 200g for one dose is kind of ridiculous.


Eh...you gotta have a market. I mean, I'm not a qualified economist, and if they want to sell 1000 daggers at a major metropolis, I'm not going to start altering prices. But sufficient quantities of poison being sold sounds like you've made a contact who can move a certain amount in a certain time. You might find a 'Gus' who can move a lot, but that in itself involves the DM enabling you to do so.

Poison would certainly make for a windfall profit, but it's not exactly abusably sustainable.
Why a contact? Something like wyvern poison's an injury poison you add to your weapon for more damage, its effects are purely combat based - not really any different than a scroll of magic weapon. The only reason for it to be illegal is association with ingested/contact poisons that are tools for assassination rather than combat, and you will get that in places, but there'll be plenty of places where you can just go and sell it. There are ways to generate expensive poison for free, all you really need to do is make a bunch, check if it's legal where you are and openly unload as much as you can. And of course sell a bunch of in on the black market if you can get away with it, if an area is stupid enough to ban poisons for no reason then they get to lose out on a bunch of tariffs and that's their own fault, but in general selling it where it's legal should net you a large chunk of cash.

It's actually the other way around - it's not a windfall profit, there's no guarantee you can get any money for it where you are, but it is very sustainable, you just offload what you can where you can since it's not really costing you anything (unless you're dragging a wyvern around, which is somewhat inconvenient).

[silveralen]

Considering the default still seems to be "no buying/selling magic items" poison is actually one of the better money sinks for a well funded party. So it is expensive, but it's one of the easiest ways to turn gold into combat power, unless you actually enjoy having NPC mercenaries come with you as cannon fodder.

[Eslin]

Considering the default still seems to be "no buying/selling magic items" poison is actually one of the better money sinks for a well funded party. So it is expensive, but it's one of the easiest ways to turn gold into combat power, unless you actually enjoy having NPC mercenaries come with you as cannon fodder.

Yup. Unless you have a druid or a conjurer, you're likely waiting 'til 7 for reliable poison creation and until 17 you can't freely create the really good stuff. Unless you capture a wyvern or something, poison's a good gold sink levels 3-6 and 10 or so-16.

[MaxWilson]

Or chop a bit off someone polymorphed, turn it into a sword and trick your opponent into fighting with it. Or make sure most of what someone eats is bits chopped off something you polymorphed, then transform it back once you're sure it'll kill them - if done carefully, a great way to assassinate local dragons.

This is the most disturbing set of potential exploits I have ever heard suggested anywhere, by anyone. You'd have to be utterly psychotic to use these in practice.

I think I just lost 1d6 SAN points from reading. :-)

[Eslin]

This is the most disturbing set of potential exploits I have ever heard suggested anywhere, by anyone. You'd have to be utterly psychotic to use these in practice.

I'm not sure that's the case. I named everything I could think of over a couple of minutes, how practical they are is determined by the situation and whether to use them is determined by the character's system of morality. If you're making a list of potential uses you make add any possibilities you can think of, there's no point skipping over them just because they're not always acceptable.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure that's the case. I named everything I could think of over a couple of minutes, how practical they are is determined by the situation and whether to use them is determined by the character's system of morality. If you're making a list of potential uses you go for possibilities and practicalities first, moral concerns can be determined on a case by case basis.

I don't disagree with you here. I just quoted the section's final two suggestions, both of which were horrific enough to make my eyes bug out. Obviously there exist people for whom those exploits would not be problematic at all--and it was this realization which cost me 1d6 SAN points.

[Eslin]

I don't disagree with you here. I just quoted the section's final two suggestions, both of which were horrific enough to make my eyes bug out. Obviously there exist people for whom those exploits would not be problematic at all--and it was this realization which cost me 1d6 SAN points.

Well, that last one I figured would work pretty well. If things separated from the creature disappear/turn back when the transformation wears off, all you need to do is true polymorph things into food, make sure your target eats it (not hard considering it's technically harmless, scans for poisons detect nothing etc, all you have to do is get close enough to influence meals) and then once he's incorporated enough of the mass into himself, let the spell wear off and he dies of hunger/bits of his body disappearing immediately.

But really, it's only a strategy for when polymorphing a bull into a tiny insect, pulling off its legs and sneaking it into their meal isn't viable - that one's much simpler, as soon as they crush or start digesting the insect it dies, the polymorph wears off and a bull turns back to normal size inside them. I suppose the disappearing food thing is also good for when you want to not be a suspect, you can just leave days earlier and remove the transformation at your leisure.

[MaxWilson]

How's that 6 damage per hit? It's 1d4 on a failed DC10 save - many monsters will never fail it, but even your average orc will only fail that 1/3 of the time. That's not an extra 6 damage per hit, that's anywhere from a bit less than 1 none at all. If you're doing it only for super hard enemies you're rapidly approaching no damage at all, since tough enemies frequently have high constitution.

I don't think I saw this addressed by anyone yet.

The 200gp isn't for the basic PHB poison, it's 200gp for the Giant Serpent poison which is DC 11 for 3d6 on a failed save, half damage on a successful save. Against anyone with Con save +0 it would be +7.5 poison damage per hit; against someone with Con save +10 it would be +5 poison damage. That's close enough to 6 damage per hit.

The ideal use of Fast Hands in this situation is for the thief to coat the fighter's weapon.

[Ashrym]

TBH, In game, I poison the target's food with the gold, he feels tired and retires to his quarters for the evening.

I then enter his room, cast silence, Darkness and kill him while he has disadvantage.

Sad when my Mage with a Criminal Background is more effective then the Party's Rogue isn't it?

This wouldn't work.

Silence is on the bard, cleric, and ranger lists. Darkness is on the sorcerer, warlock, and wizard lists. The only class that can have both is the bard through magical secrets.

In the event a bard takes it with magical secrets or your "mage" multiclasses to get both spells then they still cannot be cast at the same time because both require concentration.

You also missed establishing how you were in the position to poison the food in the first place, but an assassin's infiltration expertise ability or imposter ability work well for being in such a position. I would also go with the assassinate ability as a faster resolution to the target's death.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think I saw this addressed by anyone yet.

The 200gp isn't for the basic PHB poison, it's 200gp for the Giant Serpent poison which is DC 11 for 3d6 on a failed save, half damage on a successful save. Against anyone with Con save +0 it would be +7.5 poison damage per hit; against someone with Con save +10 it would be +5 poison damage. That's close enough to 6 damage per hit.

The ideal use of Fast Hands in this situation is for the thief to coat the fighter's weapon.

I'd be more interested in Drow poison, which gives you a small chance of instant KO, after which you can simply tie him up and stab him to death.

[MaxWilson]

I'd be more interested in Drow poison, which gives you a small chance of instant KO, after which you can simply tie him up and stab him to death.

Technically there is nothing that says you can't have both poisons on the same weapon. (That could get absurd quickly.)

[Inevitability]

Call me crazy, but I like that poison is expensive. Really, PC's are going to run around with a lot of money if there are no MagicMarts where they can spend it all on a +5 Keen Shocking Flaming Burst Bane of Lotsa Stuff Executioner's Mace. I'd rather not have players buy +20 doses of poison with the money they got from a single quest, then apply it all to a single weapon and instantly slay the big bad with it.

[GiantOctopodes]

Side but related question- where do Drow get their poisons? Obviously Drow sleep poison isn't harvested from Drow, and as that's the main poison I want to use, I'd love to know what I need summoned / transformed / conjured to create that en masse. Has that ever been clarified in official material?

[Daishain]

Is it just me or are the DCs for those ridiculously low? It is perhaps not so bad for the wound exposure types, since forcing a save is easily repeated. But if one goes to the (possibly quite considerable) trouble of sneaking poison into a mark's meal, one would hope for better than a ~50% chance of them burping and shrugging it off.

Might have to come up with some homebrew rules for increasing the potency of these suckers, even if it just involves increasing the dosage.

Side but related question- where do Drow get their poisons? Obviously Drow sleep poison isn't harvested from Drow, and as that's the main poison I want to use, I'd love to know what I need summoned / transformed / conjured to create that en masse. Has that ever been clarified in official material?Not to my knowledge, I believe the explanation is that the few drow who know the secret jealously guard that knowledge. Given their xenophobia, I'm not surprised that other races haven't been told anything.

Of course, it should be possible to figure it out if one is in a position to subtly observe a drow settlement. Find out where the poisons are made, and watch what they bring in. Of course, if you're THAT good, chances are the poison is not particularly needed.

[Eslin]

I don't think I saw this addressed by anyone yet.

The 200gp isn't for the basic PHB poison, it's 200gp for the Giant Serpent poison which is DC 11 for 3d6 on a failed save, half damage on a successful save. Against anyone with Con save +0 it would be +7.5 poison damage per hit; against someone with Con save +10 it would be +5 poison damage. That's close enough to 6 damage per hit.

The ideal use of Fast Hands in this situation is for the thief to coat the fighter's weapon.

That doesn't cost 200g though, that costs 0g. There are a heap of ways for players to get that for free.

[Speaker]

Do different poisons stack?

[Justin Sane]

Bane of Lotsa StuffWell, now my Paladin has a pet name for his greatsword.

[Shadow]

Call me crazy, but I like that poison is expensive. Really, PC's are going to run around with a lot of money if there are no MagicMarts where they can spend it all on a +5 Keen Shocking Flaming Burst Bane of Lotsa Stuff Executioner's Mace. I'd rather not have players buy +20 doses of poison with the money they got from a single quest, then apply it all to a single weapon and instantly slay the big bad with it.

Not neccessarily.
Sure, you can't stop by the magic mart to grab a gallon of magic milk, but you also can't sell the vast majority of junk that you were able to collect and sell previously. Those 957 javelins you collected on the last run? They're worthless and can't be sold, so there's no reason to even collect them. And you have to actually find someone willling to buy that +1 dagger of craptasticness when there's no price associated with it.
Any semi-intelligent DM has all the tools he needs to keep the party at whatever level of wealth he wants them to be at.

[Kaeso]

What interests me most is that the saves against poisons are all constitution saves. These saves are, if I'm not mistaken, the most uncommon saves to be proficient in for PC classes as well as monsters. This means that against someone without proficiency in CON saves, poisons at level 1 are almost as effective as they are at level 20. They remain useful throughout the entire game, and that's awesome.

[Slipperychicken]

Those 957 javelins you collected on the last run? They're worthless and can't be sold.

I still think this one is bull. They're functional weapons, with the same stats as their off-the-shelf counterparts. I know that you wouldn't be able to get retail for them if they're banged-up, but I'm sure you could get something. Scrap, at the very least. Hell, the bandits and kobolds are willing to use sub-par arms, so you'd think some unscrupulous dealer would buy from you and sell to them.

It seems unlikely that there isn't any market whatsoever for discount arms, or at least cheap metals from melted-down ones. Historically, battlefields would often see scavengers come in to loot bodies for valuables, including things like weapons and armor. In the modern day, this is also a frequent occurrence, as arms-dealers and non-conventional forces will often buy looted arms and equipment.


And you have to actually find someone willling to buy that +1 dagger of craptasticness when there's no price associated with it.

And the same goes for magic items. It's a ludicrous proposition that no merchant would be willing to buy a magic weapon, especially given all the mystery and wonder which allegedly surrounds them. Even if no normal warrior could afford such a weapon (which is bizarre since there's no price listed), surely some fat noble would want it as a status symbol, much like any other jewel or gaudy trinket. Merchants would know that they could hawk a magic weapon to the nobility, and they'd have a price in mind. Even if the local merchant doesn't know a noble, he'd almost certainly know someone who deals with the kind of people who would pay for it.

[Shadow]

I still think this one is bull. They're functional weapons, with the same stats as their off-the-shelf counterparts.

"... and you decide how much of a monster’s equipment is recoverable after the creature is slain and whether any of that equipment is still usable. A battered suit of armor made for a monster is rarely usable by someone else, for instance."

"Arms, Armor, and Other Equipment. As a general rule, undamaged weapons, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost when sold in a market. Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell."

So it doesn't matter if you personally think it's bull. The rules provide the DM with the tools he needs to keep the party wealth level exactly where he wants it to be.

[Slipperychicken]

"... and you decide how much of a monster’s equipment is recoverable after the creature is slain and whether any of that equipment is still usable. A battered suit of armor made for a monster is rarely usable by someone else, for instance."

"Arms, Armor, and Other Equipment. As a general rule, undamaged weapons, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost when sold in a market. Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell."

So it doesn't matter if you personally think it's bull. The rules provide the DM with the tools he needs to keep the party wealth level exactly where he wants it to be.

I know it's RAW, but I feel that it can damage immersion when used excessively, and the rules don't address those concerns.

[Shadow]

I know it's RAW, but I feel that it can damage immersion when used excessively, and the rules don't address those concerns.

I would argue that letting PCs walk around with millions of gold on thier persons is far more damaging to immersion than saying a gnoll's spear or a goblin's scimitar is invariably in good enough shape to sell.
Hobgoblin or orc weapons, sure. But that's where DM judgement comes into play.
If you want the PCs to get more cash flow going, you make them fight monsters that have a higher likelihood of weapon salvage. If you don't want them to gain a ton of cash this run through, you pit them against monsters that have a lower likelihood of salvagable weapons and such.

[pwykersotz]

Why a contact? Something like wyvern poison's an injury poison you add to your weapon for more damage, its effects are purely combat based - not really any different than a scroll of magic weapon. The only reason for it to be illegal is association with ingested/contact poisons that are tools for assassination rather than combat, and you will get that in places, but there'll be plenty of places where you can just go and sell it. There are ways to generate expensive poison for free, all you really need to do is make a bunch, check if it's legal where you are and openly unload as much as you can. And of course sell a bunch of in on the black market if you can get away with it, if an area is stupid enough to ban poisons for no reason then they get to lose out on a bunch of tariffs and that's their own fault, but in general selling it where it's legal should net you a large chunk of cash.

It's actually the other way around - it's not a windfall profit, there's no guarantee you can get any money for it where you are, but it is very sustainable, you just offload what you can where you can since it's not really costing you anything (unless you're dragging a wyvern around, which is somewhat inconvenient).

I'm merely speaking from the fact that many DM's base their assumptions off of the world we currently live in. You can't just go down to the poison store and grab poison. You have to buy a chemical that is useful for something else. Or in small enough quantities to be legal such as rat poison. It's not exactly openly tradable, because society fears tools whose main purpose is to kill.

But the important thing to remember is USE. How much poison does the kingdom need? Once you've outfitted the thirty master assassins and sold some low grade stuff on the cheap to a few towns to keep rats at bay, there's not a lot left to sell to for the moment.

Keep in mind, what you say COULD happen, and it would be fine. But I've never played with a DM who said, sure, you can offload forty gallons of Purple Worm poison no problem! That sort of thing seems more fun to be a story hook, to me. Some things are cool to have happen offscreen. I don't want getting my weapon sharpened to turn into 2 hours of roleplay unless the GM has a plan. But supplying multiple kingdoms with poison? Sounds like more of an adventure than an offscreen sale!

[McBars]

I would argue that letting PCs walk around with millions of gold on thier persons is far more damaging to immersion than saying a gnoll's spear or a goblin's scimitar is invariably in good enough shape to sell.
Hobgoblin or orc weapons, sure. But that's where DM judgement comes into play.

Maybe; I hated 3.5 WBL and Ye Olde magic shoppe.

But rich PCs can open up some interesting avenues. Being wealthy and to some degree renowned the PCs attract the attention of greedy parties looking to get their hands on the gold, A vicious thieves guild or a nasty red dragon looking to expand its horde attacks and robs the hell out of them. I think grandiose amounts of wealth mess up immersion when there are none of the very real drawbacks to being that rich.

[Slipperychicken]

I would argue that letting PCs walk around with millions of gold on thier persons is far more damaging to immersion than saying a gnoll's spear or a goblin's scimitar is invariably in good enough shape to sell.

It's not about giving the PCs loot. Even when you could sell weapons at half price in 3.5, it was rarely a good source of income. It wasn't enough to make the PCs millionaires (or even catch up with WBL) unless the monsters were using masterwork or magic weapons, but it was usually enough to make them able to afford basic gear, ammunition, and rations. With PHB prices, I don't think that would be an issue even if weapons could sell for half price.

[Chd]

Good idea in theory, but in practice the digestive juices in your stomach & the enzymes in your gut are unable convert metallic gold to gold salts. It is a very inert material. It isn't even absorbed across the gut lumen. Your targets will just end up dropping a large shiny dook.

Shhhh... my DM might actually read this! As a Biochemistry major, I have been able to bluff about it for a while now...

I admit that Silver added into Salt would be more effective for the purpose of poisoning someone.

The fermented/distilled Feces is a way to infect someone with Sewer Plague. Coat your blades/bolts in that liquid and you'll be good to go. The increased crafting time is how long it takes to ferment.

[Chd]

This is the most disturbing set of potential exploits I have ever heard suggested anywhere, by anyone. You'd have to be utterly psychotic to use these in practice.

I think I just lost 1d6 SAN points from reading. :-)

That's my standard practice, but here we are discussing the use of poison as a thought exercise.

As a side-bar before returning to abusing Poisons:

Want more madness? After Marrying the princess, I've permanently polymorphed the BBEG into a duplicate of the Princess, then the King into a copy of the friend on death's row. (3000xp each IIRC), then knocked up the BBEG/Princess and executed the King.

The BBEG is suffering a fate worse then death; she's the womb that spawning the next generation, the Princess no longer has to worry about her figure being ruined through Childbirth, and the former queen was framed for the switcheroo between my friend and the king. (Temporarily polymorphed myself into the queen to arrange it.)

[Gnomes2169]

Poisons are stupidly expensive again? Actually its 200 gp for 6 damage every attack for 10 rounds

And it's doubled on a crit!

[Chd]

Yup. Unless you have a druid or a conjurer, you're likely waiting 'til 7 for reliable poison creation and until 17 you can't freely create the really good stuff. Unless you capture a wyvern or something, poison's a good gold sink levels 3-6 and 10 or so-16.

Why can't you create poison before then?

Early on, you want to buy a warehouse. Buy a load of resealable Vats. Fill them with a mix of chicken/cow/horse manure then seal them for 90 days. After that, you can choose to drain them of their liquid contents and sell the putrid brew as either liquid fertilizer or as a poison that causes Sewer Plague.

The solid detritus can then be sold as an alternative to firewood, being close in consistency to Peat.

This either/or possibility gives you plausible denial if the guards take a keen interest to your operation. If you stagnate the production, so you have vats at different stages, you can get enough to use all the time, and regularly sell at a profit.

[MaxWilson]

Keep in mind, what you say COULD happen, and it would be fine. But I've never played with a DM who said, sure, you can offload forty gallons of Purple Worm poison no problem! That sort of thing seems more fun to be a story hook, to me. Some things are cool to have happen offscreen. I don't want getting my weapon sharpened to turn into 2 hours of roleplay unless the GM has a plan. But supplying multiple kingdoms with poison? Sounds like more of an adventure than an offscreen sale!

Oh, you could offload 40 gallons of purple worm venom, no problem. Anyone who is interested in buying swords would be interested in the poison, whether it's caravan merchant guards or the king's army. They might have a little trouble scraping up the 40,000,000 gp the book says you should get, but if they offer you 30,000 gp (their weapons budget for the next two years), are you really going to turn them down?

[Eslin]

Any semi-intelligent DM has all the tools he needs to keep the party at whatever level of wealth he wants them to be at.
Unless they decide to make a bunch of really expensive poison for free and sell it =P


What interests me most is that the saves against poisons are all constitution saves. These saves are, if I'm not mistaken, the most uncommon saves to be proficient in for PC classes as well as monsters. This means that against someone without proficiency in CON saves, poisons at level 1 are almost as effective as they are at level 20. They remain useful throughout the entire game, and that's awesome.
You are very much mistaken. Constitution saves are pretty common amongst monsters, as are high constitution scores, and they're the most common save to be proficient in for a player. The amount of constitution saves means it's useful for almost any character to be proficient, and casters need it as soon as possible.


"... and you decide how much of a monster’s equipment is recoverable after the creature is slain and whether any of that equipment is still usable. A battered suit of armor made for a monster is rarely usable by someone else, for instance."

"Arms, Armor, and Other Equipment. As a general rule, undamaged weapons, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost when sold in a market. Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell."

So it doesn't matter if you personally think it's bull. The rules provide the DM with the tools he needs to keep the party wealth level exactly where he wants it to be.
Why would they rarely be in good condition? I mean sure, a few types like ogres and orcs aren't going to necessarily take great care of their weapons but in general any race organised enough to be well equipped is also going to maintain that equipment.


I'm merely speaking from the fact that many DM's base their assumptions off of the world we currently live in. You can't just go down to the poison store and grab poison. You have to buy a chemical that is useful for something else. Or in small enough quantities to be legal such as rat poison. It's not exactly openly tradable, because society fears tools whose main purpose is to kill.

But the important thing to remember is USE. How much poison does the kingdom need? Once you've outfitted the thirty master assassins and sold some low grade stuff on the cheap to a few towns to keep rats at bay, there's not a lot left to sell to for the moment.

Keep in mind, what you say COULD happen, and it would be fine. But I've never played with a DM who said, sure, you can offload forty gallons of Purple Worm poison no problem! That sort of thing seems more fun to be a story hook, to me. Some things are cool to have happen offscreen. I don't want getting my weapon sharpened to turn into 2 hours of roleplay unless the GM has a plan. But supplying multiple kingdoms with poison? Sounds like more of an adventure than an offscreen sale!
Which is the exact same reason swords are illegal here and I can't just go to a shop and buy a gun, they're killing tools and so civilians accessing them without another use is frowned upon. That is our society, most societies in D&D have a lot more use for combat equipment.

Regarding assassins - poison is ok as an assassination tool in 5e, but its main use is combat. In 5e a poison acts instantly and so works best with constant hits, a kingdom's main use for strong poisons is to hand to their knights so the knights can deal three times as much damage when they defend the kingdom from ogres and hydras and what have you.

And why wouldn't you be able to offload a bunch of purple worm poison? It deals 12d6 a hit, it's fantastically useful for the realm's defenders in taking down powerful enemies, it lets mundanes punch far above their weight - any kingdom's going to want some, just offload as much as you can wherever you are.


Why can't you create poison before then?

Early on, you want to buy a warehouse. Buy a load of resealable Vats. Fill them with a mix of chicken/cow/horse manure then seal them for 90 days. After that, you can choose to drain them of their liquid contents and sell the putrid brew as either liquid fertilizer or as a poison that causes Sewer Plague.

The solid detritus can then be sold as an alternative to firewood, being close in consistency to Peat.

This either/or possibility gives you plausible denial if the guards take a keen interest to your operation. If you stagnate the production, so you have vats at different stages, you can get enough to use all the time, and regularly sell at a profit.
A poison that causes sewer plague is not very useful for combat. You want poisons that add lots of d6s to your attacks.

[Chd]

A poison that causes sewer plague is not very useful for combat. You want poisons that add lots of d6s to your attacks.
All poisons cause disadvantage at a minimum. I never said it was optimal, but a cheap poison that most likely infects a target with a deadly disease is still useful.

Another way to make money is to buy a warehouse, grow whatever hallucinogenic mushrooms you like, then boil vats of them in water like bulk lots of tea to get a Hallucinogenic substance that if like rl would cause paralysis.

Getting the spores is the thing though.

[Shadow]

hallucinogenic mushrooms ... cause paralysis.

huh?..?..?

[Giant2005]

All poisons cause disadvantage at a minimum.
Only those that impose the poisoned condition cause disadvantage. Most of them don't.

[Perseus]

Only those that impose the poisoned condition cause disadvantage. Most of them don't.

Hmmm... It would be interesting if..

You have the posion condition any round you take damage from a poison.

Perhaps that would be crazy good...

[Eslin]

Hmmm... It would be interesting if..

You have the posion condition any round you take damage from a poison.

Perhaps that would be crazy good...

It would be far too good, poisons already do amazing damage.

[Kyutaru]

Use Polymorph to turn your poisoned thing into "The One Ring". Leave it where you know the guy will see it. When he equips it, he starts feeling sick. How long do you think he'll feel like that before he realizes its the ring making him feel poisoned?

[Safety Sword]

The fermented/distilled Feces is a way to infect someone with Sewer Plague. Coat your blades/bolts in that liquid and you'll be good to go. The increased crafting time is how long it takes to ferment.

Now we all know what short rests are actually for....

Wizard: "Why's the fighter heading off into the woods with a waterskin?"

Rogue: "Poison".

[Eslin]

Use Polymorph to turn your poisoned thing into "The One Ring". Leave it where you know the guy will see it. When he equips it, he starts feeling sick. How long do you think he'll feel like that before he realizes its the ring making him feel poisoned?

Immediately, since it'll only start poisoning him when the polymorph wears off and he'll notice it changing shape?

[Justin Sane]

"Yes, I want to polymorph this flawless gold ring into a flawless gold ring that looks exactly like the original, why?"

[Eslin]

"Yes, I want to polymorph this flawless gold ring into a flawless gold ring that looks exactly like the original, why?"

Then it'll still be covered in poison, won't it? If you polymorph an item covered in poison into a different item it'll still be covered in poison.

[Justin Sane]

Then it'll still be covered in poison, won't it? If you polymorph an item covered in poison into a different item it'll still be covered in poison.I know, I was just pointing out some silliness on a poorly worded plan :)

[pwykersotz]

Which is the exact same reason swords are illegal here and I can't just go to a shop and buy a gun, they're killing tools and so civilians accessing them without another use is frowned upon. That is our society, most societies in D&D have a lot more use for combat equipment.

Regarding assassins - poison is ok as an assassination tool in 5e, but its main use is combat. In 5e a poison acts instantly and so works best with constant hits, a kingdom's main use for strong poisons is to hand to their knights so the knights can deal three times as much damage when they defend the kingdom from ogres and hydras and what have you.

And why wouldn't you be able to offload a bunch of purple worm poison? It deals 12d6 a hit, it's fantastically useful for the realm's defenders in taking down powerful enemies, it lets mundanes punch far above their weight - any kingdom's going to want some, just offload as much as you can wherever you are.

That's cool, I guess. But I do think you're overestimating how many people want to use poison. Your argument is based on utility with no regard for stigma. There are any number of highly practical and useful sciences that we have access to in our society which are abandoned for being "unethical" or "too potentially hazardous". This stuff happens. Not only that, but in D&D, the will of the gods is a big thing, and the mysticism of our real medieval period is amplified a hundredfold because magic is real. There's probably going to be a lot of superstitions and taboos.

It's just a different way to play, I guess. :smallsmile:

[JoeJ]

Which is the exact same reason swords are illegal here and I can't just go to a shop and buy a gun, they're killing tools and so civilians accessing them without another use is frowned upon. That is our society, most societies in D&D have a lot more use for combat equipment.

Laws differ from place to place, though. Swords are not illegal where I live, and I can just go into a shop and buy a gun.

[silveralen]

Laws differ from place to place, though. Swords are not illegal where I live, and I can just go into a shop and buy a gun.

Indeed, mainly because the of the potential usages for the items include non illegal activities such as sport, recreation, or self defense.

Poison legality varies on the poison in question. The usage for most poisons is premeditated killing, which is rarely if ever condoned in any real world culture, at least for killing humans. Using poisons that can kill vermin or animals isn't always well recieved, but it is more likely to be legal.

So for DnD, the question to determining whether a poison is legal is to look at the potential justification for its usage. Ingestion based poisons strong enough to kill a human have few legitimate usages. You might see professional monster/magical beast exterminators use them, but even then it'd likely be a secondary course of action (it could potentially ruin useful spell/alchemy components compared to other types of traps).

Injection based poisons are even more questionable. I doubt most adventuring parties are actually portrayed as murder hobos, most are seen as "explorerers" or "treasure hunters" who are "attacked" in the course of their exploration, not people who wander into other humanoid creatures place of residence and brutally murder them for loot. I highly doubt most places, even in fantasy worlds, would tolerate people openly being the latter.

TL;DR I imagine poison in most settings would be regulated to a degree, forcing players to draw primarily on the black market.

[Eslin]

Indeed, mainly because the of the potential usages for the items include non illegal activities such as sport, recreation, or self defense.

Poison legality varies on the poison in question. The usage for most poisons is premeditated killing, which is rarely if ever condoned in any real world culture, at least for killing humans. Using poisons that can kill vermin or animals isn't always well recieved, but it is more likely to be legal.
Real world cultures didn't have to deal with massive beasts and invasions of orcs. The usage for ingested/contact poisons is premeditated killing, in a world where injury poisons act instantly and are basically only useful to boost weapon swings they'd be treated the same way a lethal weapon would - with care, but obviously you're going to use it to kill a bunch of ogres. The distinction would be made clear, and I'm pretty sure they'd have their own seperate names.


So for DnD, the question to determining whether a poison is legal is to look at the potential justification for its usage. Ingestion based poisons strong enough to kill a human have few legitimate usages. You might see professional monster/magical beast exterminators use them, but even then it'd likely be a secondary course of action (it could potentially ruin useful spell/alchemy components compared to other types of traps).

Injection based poisons are even more questionable. I doubt most adventuring parties are actually portrayed as murder hobos, most are seen as "explorerers" or "treasure hunters" who are "attacked" in the course of their exploration, not people who wander into other humanoid creatures place of residence and brutally murder them for loot. I highly doubt most places, even in fantasy worlds, would tolerate people openly being the latter.

TL;DR I imagine poison in most settings would be regulated to a degree, forcing players to draw primarily on the black market.

Adventurers get far more use out of injury poisons, which would only be regulated to the same kind of degree any other lethal weapon would be. If an adventurer can walk around with a greatsword, he can likely walk around with a 3d6 damage injury poison that only has use with the greatsword - they're both dangerous in exactly the same way.

Poison in D&D =/= poison in the real world. Out here it's a slow acting way to kill someone, in there the useful stuff is an instant way to kill big things threatening you.

[Kyutaru]

The real world has suicide pills. Define slow.