Suggestion and other mind controlling spells, how do they work?

[MrUberGr]

So this has been an issue in the last two sessions. First of all, when you cast this spell on someone, does he know what you are doing, and does he remember having a spell cast on him after the effects end? This could have great implications depending on the situation.

Secondly, exactly what is considered logic for someone to do? For example, here (community.wizards.com/comment/51340916#comment-51340916), for mass suggestion he says, help me kill your boss. However our dm argued that it isn't logical for a minion to just turn on his boss under a command spell. He said, we'd have to do a couple of persuasion or bluff checks to make them a bit more "open-minded" and then cast the spell. For example, bluff check, "your boss is planning to sacrifice all of you. I've read his secret mail" if they believe you then you can suggest they help kill the boss. Also, he said they might not want to help you but we talked about it and figured they're pretty much forced to do it, right?

[Eslin]

Suggestion's pretty simple, it makes requests seem more reasonable than they really are. The example is telling a knight to give away her warhorse, and that's a pretty good example - not something she'd ever do on her own, but something that she could be convinced to do before she realised how bad an idea it was.

The best way I have of explaining it is suggestion lets you speak a sentence, then screws with the target's cost/benefit analysis. We decide what to do base on projected costs and benefits - something could cost time, the cost could be personal risk, the benefit might be financial gain or the act being in accordance to the targets values, and what suggestion does is mess with the target's ability to do that, making the costs seem less costly and the benefits seem more beneficial.

So you can get a knight to donate her warhorse, the spell boosts her impulse to charity and reduces her attachment to the horse, need for it and the impact of the financial cost, but you can't tell her to kill herself because the spell can't skew the costs and benefits enough to make that seem like a good idea.

[MrUberGr]

Okay, let's say you meet a barbarian in a town where he's come to fight in a tournament. You find out that he's going to be fighting against one of your party, and he's probably going to win. So, you make the following suggestion: "sell your axe and leave town immediatly". It seems reasonable, but would it work?

[Eslin]

Okay, let's say you meet a barbarian in a town where he's come to fight in a tournament. You find out that he's going to be fighting against one of your party, and he's probably going to win. So, you make the following suggestion: "sell your axe and leave town immediatly". It seems reasonable, but would it work?

It works by magic. If it were an entirely reasonable suggestion, you wouldn't need to use magic, and the magic makes it seem a better idea than it is.

[Dalebert]

Suggestion's pretty simple, it makes requests seem more reasonable than they really are. The example is telling a knight to give away her warhorse, and that's a pretty good example - not something she'd ever do on her own, but something that she could be convinced to do before she realised how bad an idea it was.

Like when Dean gave away Baby on Supernatural!

[Regulas]

Okay, let's say you meet a barbarian in a town where he's come to fight in a tournament. You find out that he's going to be fighting against one of your party, and he's probably going to win. So, you make the following suggestion: "sell your axe and leave town immediatly". It seems reasonable, but would it work?

That would depend a lot on the barbarian and a lot on how you do it (might need more context). And would probably require a persuasion check (at advantage) for each. If he's a warrior and he only came to the town to fight in the tournament, and it's his family heirloom weapon then just giving up both things even charmed might be tricky if you don't do it right.The Paladin was willing to sell the horse charmed on the basis of charity a paladin concept. That is even though it's not something she would ordinarily do it's still something she might possibly consider doing on her own.


Think of it like hypnotism; You can't make someone do something they wouldn't be able to willingly do.


What I might do is something like tell the barbarian that there isn't anyone worth fighting in the tournament and thus he should drop the tournament cause it will be boring and a waste of his time. Worded more concisely.

[Perseus]

That would depend a lot on the barbarian and a lot on how you do it (might need more context). And would probably require a persuasion check (at advantage) for each. If he's a warrior and he only came to the town to fight in the tournament, and it's his family heirloom weapon then just giving up both things even charmed might be tricky if you don't do it right.The Paladin was willing to sell the horse charmed on the basis of charity a paladin concept. That is even though it's not something she would ordinarily do it's still something she might possibly consider doing on her own.


Think of it like hypnotism; You can't make someone do something they wouldn't be able to willingly do.


What I might do is something like convince the barbarian that there isn't anyone worth fighting in the tournament and thus he should drop the tournament cause it will be boring and a waste of his time. Because your charming him he would readily accept it.

Might accept it, for all we know the Barbarian is super egotistical and "knows" this already but just wants to slaughter weak little men because he likes the sound of their organs when his family heirloom axe slices through them.

[Regulas]

Might accept it, for all we know the Barbarian is super egotistical and "knows" this already but just wants to slaughter weak little men because he likes the sound of their organs when his family heirloom axe slices through them.

Certainly lol, my point though mostly was that suggestion is the kind of thing that works best when not being used to make blatant commands but should be used to make, well... suggestions. So a suggestion that "The tournament will probably bore you, so you should drop it" sounds more appropriate then the commanding phrase "Drop the tournament".

[MrUberGr]

What about the 1st part of my question? Does the affected person realize he was under the influence of a spell?

[MaxWilson]

So this has been an issue in the last two sessions. First of all, when you cast this spell on someone, does he know what you are doing, and does he remember having a spell cast on him after the effects end? This could have great implications depending on the situation.

PHB 204 (under Targets) is relevant here.

Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.

Charm Person says that the target knows after the fact that it was Charmed, and I imagine that if you cast Suggestion to get a target to give away all of its money, it's going to figure out that "giving away all of my money to a beggar is pretty uncharacteristic of me--I bet that guy shouting 'give away all your money to the first beggar you meet' enchanted me!". But if you just Suggest something like, "You are hopelessly outmatched. Surrender!" the target might never realize that magic was involved.

RE: Mass Suggestion and "Help me kill your boss," I somewhat disagree with your DM. You need to invent a plausible reason for them to help you, but you don't need to make a skill check, that is covered by the spell. If you successfully convinced the minions that their boss was trying to kill them, Mass Suggestion would be unnecessary, you can just use normal persuasion at that point. Mass Suggestion is more like beating a DC 100 on your Persuasion. They won't kill themselves, won't kill their wife and kids, but if they're just spearchuckers, "Your boss is a traitor to the hobgoblin race. Help us kill him," would work just fine, as long as you looked like a hobgoblin. On the other hand, "I am Magubliyet in disguise. Obey me," would work even without requiring you to look like a hobgoblin. (I could change my mind about that last suggestion but right now it seems reasonable--although it might have unintended side-effects too such as them not bothering to fight because they assume you'll take care of everything.)

[Slipperychicken]

What about the 1st part of my question? Does the affected person realize he was under the influence of a spell?

Unless the spell explicitly alters their memory, I'd say they do notice. Not having control of your own body is absolutely a "perceptible effect".


I prefer the idea that targets of mind-control are 100% fully conscious and have all their senses, but are (for the duration of the spell) basically trapped in a living nightmare hell where they aren't in control of their own bodies. They see their bodies first-hand doing all sorts of things they would never normally consider, and their own voices saying whatever the master wants. I think it goes without saying that it's at best an unpleasant experience, and at worst a traumatic one.

It also makes enchantment a lot less OP, since pretty much any target of mind-control is going to despise and work against the caster the moment the spell ends. And it's also an excellent in-setting reason for people to hate magic and distrust magic-users.

[Perseus]

It also makes enchantment a lot less OP, since pretty much any target of mind-control is going to despise and work against the caster the moment the spell ends. And it's also an excellent in-setting reason for people to hate magic and distrust magic-users.

And why some jurisdictions don't allow magical evidence in a court of law.

[Giant2005]

What about the 1st part of my question? Does the affected person realize he was under the influence of a spell?

Unless you have the School of Enchantment level 14 ability that prevents the target from realizing it was charmed; they know.

[Regulas]

Unless the spell explicitly alters their memory, I'd say they do notice. Not having control of your own body is absolutely a "perceptible effect".


I prefer the idea that targets of mind-control are 100% fully conscious and have all their senses, but are (for the duration of the spell) basically trapped in a living nightmare hell where they aren't in control of their own bodies. They see their bodies first-hand doing all sorts of things they would never normally consider, and their own voices saying whatever the master wants. I think it goes without saying that it's at best an unpleasant experience, and at worst a traumatic one.

It also makes enchantment a lot less OP, since pretty much any target of mind-control is going to despise and work against the caster the moment the spell ends. And it's also an excellent in-setting reason for people to hate magic and distrust magic-users.


While the concept is nifty, most D&D enchantment spells aren't controlling their bodies against their will, rather they are directly controlling their will themselves. They don't feel compelled or forced to give away the horse (barring geas maybe), rather they in the moment give it away just because it seems like a good idea. So while they might be able to realize that their behavior was unnatural, in the moment they are specifically unaware, and there awareness afterwords depends heavily on how reasonable the enchantment was. With the more unreasonable/subtle ones like charm person they know right away whereas, with subtle spells like Suggestion unless you are too obvious they may never actually realize they were charmed.



Unless you have the School of Enchantment level 14 ability that prevents the target from realizing it was charmed; they know.

This is only relevant for the spells that specify the target becomes aware (as a lot do). In contrast several spells like suggestion do not explicitly make their manipulations known and it would depend on how obvious their actions were in hindsight (so DM descided). Suggesting a guard let you pass into town would probably never be realised because letting people pass is something he does all the time. Suggesting he go take a walk in the swamp on the other hand he might get suspicious.

[MaxWilson]

This is only relevant for the spells that specify the target becomes aware (as a lot do). In contrast several spells like suggestion do not explicitly make their manipulations known and it would depend on how obvious their actions were in hindsight (so DM descided). Suggesting a guard let you pass into town would probably never be realised because letting people pass is something he does all the time. Suggesting he go take a walk in the swamp on the other hand he might get suspicious.

Obi Wan Kenobi: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.

[ten minutes later]

Stormtroops: Those were totally the droids we were looking for. Why'd I let them go? Better not tell anybody about this, it could jeopardize my next promotion.

[Regulas]

Obi Wan Kenobi: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.

[ten minutes later]

Stormtroops: Those were totally the droids we were looking for. Why'd I let them go? Better not tell anybody about this, it could jeopardize my next promotion.

I was actually strongly considering referencing that, since they didn't have the droids actual appearance and would have seen a whole ton that day, it's a perfect example where the charmed subject probably never had a clue. Jedi mind trick is basically the suggestion spell.

[MaxWilson]

I was actually strongly considering referencing that, since they didn't have the droids actual appearance and would have seen a whole ton that day, it's a perfect example where the charmed subject probably never had a clue. Jedi mind trick is basically the suggestion spell.

Other uses for Jedi Mind Trick(TM):

"You can pay us full price for this used hobgoblin chain mail."
"I have a message for the king, let me in the throne room."
"That fire elemental is really scary. You should run away now."
"I'll kill you if you tell anyone. Keep this a secret."
"Warn your master that we're invading from the east gate!" [ten minutes later: invades from west gate]
"Strahd doesn't pay you enough. Go tell him that you quit." (This one might not work. See: suicide clause.)

With any luck, the subject will voluntarily continue to keep the suggestion even after the duration expires.

-Max

[Zarohk]

While the concept is nifty, most D&D enchantment spells aren't controlling their bodies against their will, rather they are directly controlling their will themselves. They don't feel compelled or forced to give away the horse (barring geas maybe), rather they in the moment give it away just because it seems like a good idea
Suggesting a guard let you pass into town would probably never be realised because letting people pass is something he does all the time. Suggesting he go take a walk in the swamp on the other hand he might get suspicious.

So, I know this thread is old, but some questions about how subtle/blatant this spell could be. For example, if you have a battle where it's your party against Henchmen Arnold & Bert, could you use Suggestion on Arnold and tell him "Bert is under a hostile enchantment, and you should stop him from hurting anybody," to make Arnold restrain Bert? It's reasonable because Arnold can see magic flying around, and can probably see Bert attacking another party member. Or would this require using Friends on Arnold first, to make him think you are someone to listen to?

Related to that, if you cast disguise self on yourself to disguise yourself as Bertie, and then use Friends on Arnold before a battle, would Arnold then become hostile towards Bertie? Because that seems like a great way to incite rampant paranoia among your enemies, and one of the warlock invocations allows you to cast disguise self at will.

[Wolfkingleo]

So, I know this thread is old, but some questions about how subtle/blatant this spell could be. For example, if you have a battle where it's your party against Henchmen Arnold & Bert, could you use Suggestion on Arnold and tell him "Bert is under a hostile enchantment, and you should stop him from hurting anybody," to make Arnold restrain Bert? It's reasonable because Arnold can see magic flying around, and can probably see Bert attacking another party member. Or would this require using Friends on Arnold first, to make him think you are someone to listen to?

Related to that, if you cast disguise self on yourself to disguise yourself as Bertie, and then use Friends on Arnold before a battle, would Arnold then become hostile towards Bertie? Because that seems like a great way to incite rampant paranoia among your enemies, and one of the warlock invocations allows you to cast disguise self at will.

As a DM I (I am not BTW, xD) would have trouble dealing with this because it would like that I give the players the "cheating mode activated" and that reduces "my fun". But in the first case, since we are in a combat scenario, I would allow you try to do it, as long as Arnold have enough power to restrain Bert.

In the second case, as the NPC I would be confused and have a persuasion check from both Berties in order to act accordingly to each one. I wouldn't induce a paranoia since it's something build on ocasion instead of being worked overtime, but again, that depends on how you would put this together.

Cheers