The Investigator's Grand Turnabout N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Investigator

[N. Jolly]

OBJECTION! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kImj9bhXndsbJGbFURIZBD0hl4rZQ5xyafN-p5PsJ7c/edit?usp=sharing)

It's been a while, but I'm back with a new guide. Slowly working on getting the Alchemist guide up to snuff too with all the new information, and I figured I'd also work on a guide of its younger sibling. This is more of a guide-addendum, as there will be shared material between the Alchemist guide and the Investigator guide, since there is a lot of information that is the same for either of them. In this respect, this isn't a 'true' guide, but I do hope it meets the needs of those looking to play this class.

It's not quite finished yet, but I'm moving along at a decent pace, and I should have it done within the next month or so. Maybe after I do this, I'll FINALLY get back to the synth guide...probably not though..

As always, looking for ideas and such from you guys, let me know what you think of the guide, and here's hoping to another great guide to help everyone else out.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

For rogue talents, Trap Spotter isn't too bad. And skill-wise, if you actually plan to investigate things, Heal is used for cause of death and similar forensics.

[Deadkitten]

Effortless Aid can be used to get like a +21 to caster level at like level 4 in a couple of slightly specialized builds. I think that is worth noting.

Also, while I will freely admit that I am a fanboy of effortless aid, boosting aid another seems to be the best way to use an investigators traits.
You honestly don't really need them for anything else. And a +7 aid another is great for when you are not able to do anything else.

[Serafina]

Yaaay, a guide to my new favorite class :smallbiggrin:


Investigators can be pretty solid archers after the first few levels, because they gain bonus damage to their attacks via Studied Combat. You just need a way to get around the feat-sinks - a two-level Zen Archer dip works well for this. It gives you two bonus feats, and you gain Weapon Focus.

The main appeal of going ranged is of course that you can get around the relative squishiness of the Investigator (D8 HDs and light armor) by staying out of range.
But then again, if you can gain the proficiencies for it there is no reason at all for a Strenght-Investigator not to wear medium or heavy armor, and Reach Weapons + Enlarge can already keep you reasonably safe.

[N. Jolly]

For rogue talents, Trap Spotter isn't too bad. And skill-wise, if you actually plan to investigate things, Heal is used for cause of death and similar forensics.

I stand by my hatred of Rogue Talents. Trap Spotter isn't bad, but to me it just feels like insurance against a GM saying "you didn't SAY you were looking for traps." Most times there's traps about, you'll be looking. I will give you heal, upgraded that rating.


Effortless Aid can be used to get like a +21 to caster level at like level 4 in a couple of slightly specialized builds. I think that is worth noting.

Also, while I will freely admit that I am a fanboy of effortless aid, boosting aid another seems to be the best way to use an investigators traits.
You honestly don't really need them for anything else. And a +7 aid another is great for when you are not able to do anything else.

I might have to look over aid buffing, since it seems like it could be a fun niche, and it'd help fill in a bit of space for the traits section, since traits are pretty hype for boosting aiding.


Yaaay, a guide to my new favorite class :smallbiggrin:

Investigators can be pretty solid archers after the first few levels, because they gain bonus damage to their attacks via Studied Combat. You just need a way to get around the feat-sinks - a two-level Zen Archer dip works well for this. It gives you two bonus feats, and you gain Weapon Focus.

The main appeal of going ranged is of course that you can get around the relative squishiness of the Investigator (D8 HDs and light armor) by staying out of range.
But then again, if you can gain the proficiencies for it there is no reason at all for a Strenght-Investigator not to wear medium or heavy armor, and Reach Weapons + Enlarge can already keep you reasonably safe.

The only problem I have with ranged investigators is how many feats it takes to make them work. If it wasn't for that, they'd be fine, and I feel like it's a flaw that they need a feat to use Studied Combat/Strike at a range.

And yeah, a 1 level fighter dip for strength Investigators is quite hype.

[Serafina]

Speaking of which, are you going to rate feats differently based on build, like you did in your Alchemist-guide?

As far as i can tell, there are essentially three ways to build an Investigator:
- Strength and the best Reach-Weapon you can get your hands on. Takes the least amount of feats to do well.
- Dexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. Takes quite a few feats (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, TWF) but should have the highest damage-output.
- Ranged Combat. Needs the most feats and comes online later than the other builds.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If you are going the paranoid trap-guy route, I don't think it's too bad. I mean, yes, if you are in a dungeon, you are going to be searching for traps all the time. But are you going to be searching in somebody's house? Your house? I mean, even if you pick up a book with Explosive Runes in it, you get a check. I don't thino all rogue talents are useless, but the selection there is bafflingly bad. Minor/Major Magic bears mentioning that with Bookish Rogue, you just got swappable SLAs though. All you need is a spellbook... Formula book might not work for that, though.

[avr]

I don't thino all rogue talents are useless, but the selection there is bafflingly bad. Minor/Major Magic bears mentioning that with Bookish Rogue, you just got swappable SLAs though. All you need is a spellbook... Formula book might not work for that, though.
For rogues Minor/Major Magic stand out, largely because the rest are so bad, but Investigators don't actually get access to them even if they want them. Despite being mentioned in the section on prereqs they're not on the list of rogue talents which an Investigator can take.

On the guide, six traits listed as purple may be a few too many given you can only take two. I read the best color possible in a guide as 'this is the default one to get'.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yes, Minor and Major magic are on the list.


Rogue Talent (Ex): An investigator can select one of the following rogue talents in place of an investigator talent: assault leader, black market connections, camouflage, canny observer, charmer, coax information, combat swipe, convincing liar, cunning trigger, deft palm, expert leaper, fast fingers, fast getaway, fast picks, fast stealth, firearm training, guileful polyglot, grit, hard to fool, hold breath, honeyed words, iron guts, lasting poison, ledge walker, major magic, minor magic, nimble climber, peerless maneuver, quick disable, quick disguise, quick trapsmith, resilience, rogue crawl, rope master, stand up, strong stroke, terrain master, trap spotter, or wall scrambler. Any talent effects based on rogue level use the investigator's class level. If the rogue talent has a prerequisite (such as the major magic rogue talent requiring the minor magic talent), the investigator must fulfill the prerequisite before selecting that rogue talent. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, it grants the investigator a new rogue talent.

[N. Jolly]

Speaking of which, are you going to rate feats differently based on build, like you did in your Alchemist-guide?

As far as i can tell, there are essentially three ways to build an Investigator:
- Strength and the best Reach-Weapon you can get your hands on. Takes the least amount of feats to do well.
- Dexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. Takes quite a few feats (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, TWF) but should have the highest damage-output.
- Ranged Combat. Needs the most feats and comes online later than the other builds.

If I'm being honest here, rating everything in a three way split was specific to the Alchemist guide, as those characters play a LOT differently in my experience. For the most part, Strength/Dex for the Investigator is just a difference in which stat to use, which means the divide for separating them isn't as large. The Alchemist is a bigger class, and needed that kind of support WAY more than the Investigator, which for everything it tries to do, is a straightforward class.

I will be doing at least 2 different builds though, possibly a ranged one, but ranged basically forces you to play human to have any chance of not making it ultimate garbage for most of the game.


If you are going the paranoid trap-guy route, I don't think it's too bad. I mean, yes, if you are in a dungeon, you are going to be searching for traps all the time. But are you going to be searching in somebody's house? Your house? I mean, even if you pick up a book with Explosive Runes in it, you get a check. I don't thino all rogue talents are useless, but the selection there is bafflingly bad. Minor/Major Magic bears mentioning that with Bookish Rogue, you just got swappable SLAs though. All you need is a spellbook... Formula book might not work for that, though.

A character that paranoid shouldn't be adventuring, they should be sitting on a street corner talking about how Aboleths control all major media, and how we should all wear lead hats to keep them from reading our minds.

While Minor/Major Magic aren't bad, you really need to take both, AND Bookish Rogue to make them of any value, and even then, they're lackluster. At best, they power your Arcane Strike/Item Creation Feats, and Arcane Strike isn't as important for this build as it is for Alchemist.


For rogues Minor/Major Magic stand out, largely because the rest are so bad, but Investigators don't actually get access to them even if they want them. Despite being mentioned in the section on prereqs they're not on the list of rogue talents which an Investigator can take.

On the guide, six traits listed as purple may be a few too many given you can only take two. I read the best color possible in a guide as 'this is the default one to get'.

Recognize that what I put isn't the full trait guide, those were more of a 'highlights', since those traits really do deserve their rating. I might possibly mix it up a little, take out a few and throw in some green, but if you check out those traits, most of them end up better than feats. Second Chance is straight up omni perfect.

Finished up feats, going to do a 'highlights' of extracts next, probably going to try and get on that tomorrow since Thurs is a Smash day.

[N. Jolly]

Few more additions done, all the way up to magic items now, probably just gonna link it, although sample characters are coming soon enough.

[deuxhero]

One oddity of Studied Strike I doubt will come up much is that you can do lethal studied strike damage while your weapon's attack does non-lethal damage.

For Rogue Talents, Terrain Mastery is actually a pretty good choice for a talent (all your talent slots in fact)... if you plan on quitting the "Investigator" thing at level 7 to jump in Horizon Walker and burn feats to take it even more times. Only comes online at level 10 (when you gain a +16 bonus on attack and damage rolls against almost anything, losing the almost with a source of Instant Enemy). I don't think it's really within the guide's scope beyond a small note in the mutliclassing section though (note the Rogue can do this too, but I'll take 6 levels of alchemy alone over 14 skill points and sneak attack 3d6)

[Martain]

I too am quite loving the Investigator and I had a couple of thoughts you might consider adding to your FAQ.

If you're taking a level 1 dip in swashbuckler you gain weapon proficiency: Melee all. This allows you to be proficient in ANY weapon for the cost of a 1500 GP Ioun Stone.

Another possible dip idea would be one dip in Alchemist specifically the Inspired Chemist (You could stack the Grenadier archetype to gain a free weapon proficiency in PFS play too). Gain the ability to create an Inspiring Cognatogen and pair it with the Feat Inspired Alchemy to break the game.

Basically lets you drink your cognatogen to then use your second inspiration pool to recreate all of your used extracts. Then create a new cognatogen... rinse repeat over and over again.

Example Lv 4 Investigator / Lv 1 Alchemist w/22 Int:
Drink Cognatogen - Gain 6 Inspiration points lasting 50 minutes
Use Inspired Chemist to recreate 6 levels worth of extracts
Then when you've used those extracts... create another Cognatogen
Rinse repeat.

As long as you have at least around an hour and a half, you can recreate a good deal of extracts.

Since I love potion using as well, this will be a way of getting a great deal more level two extracts throughout the day and thus... more alchemical allocations!

[Martain]

Also, in looking through your Alchemist/Investigator guides and the others on Zenith Games Guide of Guide page, I don't see really that much information regarding potion guzzling. There are quite a few other elixirs and potions that are worth mentioning.

I'd love to see a more thorough list of potions that can be used with alchemical extracts

For example:

Elixir of dragon's breath (multiple spread/element type options) for 7d6 damage halfed with a reflex save usable as early as level 4. Combine with extend elixir at lvl 6 to increase to 10d6 damage?

I kind of like the idea of having everyone drink one and then use all at once in combat for 36d6 damage spread with a party of 4.

A few more examples I found that I thought were interesting:

Potion of Ape Walk
Potion of Arcane Concordance - Free metamagic for those with spell storing weapons
Potion of Archon's Aura
Potion of Banish Seeming
Potion of Call Lightning
Potion of Cast Out
Potion of Chain of Perdition - Blind Entangle Trip Reposition Drag
Potion of Channel the gift
Potion of Collaborative Thaumaturgy
Potion of Creeping Ice
Potion of Diminish Plants
Potion of Greater Chameleon Stride
Potion of Greater Thunderstomp
Potion of Heightened Reflexes
Potion of Hide Campsite
Potion of Hydraulic Torrent - Bull Rush
Potion of Invisibility Sphere
Potion of Jester's Jaunt
Potion of Light of Iomedae
Potion of Lily Pad Stride
Potion of Plant Grow (useful when combined with Potion of Wilderness Soldier's)
Potion of Prayer
Potion of Quench - What burning building?
Potion of Silence - No chance of prey shouting for help
Potion of Tiny Hut
Potion of Ward of the Season - Better than Haste imo
Potion of Water Breathing
Potion of Water Walk
Potion of Wilderness Soldiers


Seishinru, Spirit Elixir - Roll all D20 twice and take the better for a minute? Yes! 5d8 +10 healing if dropped to 0 hp (although how to get seal I'm not sure) Yes!

Elixir of Elemental Protection - 100 points of damage reduction? Yes!
Elixir of Spirit Sight - See invisibility plus armor/weapon have ghost touch? Yes!

Now some of those potions rely on you being able to emanate the spell and I think you wrote somewhere about emanation spells not working? Did I read that right? Where does that come from?

Also, the true mutagens alchemist discovery can be combined with the infuse mutagen discovery.
My question is... technically couldn't you find at least one alchemist in a really large city capable of creating such items at the 1000gp it takes to create an infused mutagen? Couldn't you... technically obtain such from said alchemist?

Having even one of these on hand would be like having a Potion of Hulk since an infused true mutagen would give you +8 Nat Armor/Dex/Str/Con for only -2 to your mental stats. Yes they would be a one shot consumable but such would be a very magnificent one shot. Being able to stock up on these at a low level would let you effectively solo entire encounters.

[9mm]

Given the relevant FAQ about extracts. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9na0) Is potion glutton just for other potions?

edit: linked the wrong faq.

[Feint's End]

In the race part it should read "free feat" instead of "free feet" in the human entry.

[Elricaltovilla]

In the race part it should read "free feat" instead of "free feet" in the human entry.

Wait you mean my feet aren't free? Man, if I'd known I had to pay for them I would have just reincarnated as a snake.

[MightyPirate]

I was looking at ways to improve "The Defiler" (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WZpR_6cpCFDG2Nn2DDlcvoN1wIkQIaBYOpaQkzp03R0/edit) magus and I think an alchemist or investigator might just be the way to do that.

They both have the decided advantage of being able to combine touch attacks as you don't dissipate touch attacks by imbibing extracts, only by casting spells. This would let you layer frostbite, with elemental touch (to partially make up for not getting frigid touch), with touch injection w/skinsend (skip this against primary casters so they don't avoid all the conditions you're giving them), and with touch of slime just for good measure. I know this is a ridiculous amount of nova but I was just wondering how far condition stacking could go on one attack.

It hurts to lose arcane accuracy but between studied combat and effortless aid I think the investigator is doing pretty well. If you're going for all of these effects I might even go for a scroll of true strike just to make sure it sticks. That won't stack with studied combat but effortless aid is still fair game.

This really hurts your formulae progression to take this kind of dip but you do get to strait up ignore strength. Intelligence does most of your heavy lifting for to hit and damage, only needing weapon finesse for the initial attack. Piranha strike can taken in power attack's place but I'd honestly skip it. 3/4 BAB doesn't scale as nicely and the point of this build is to stack as many penalties on the foe as possible so your allies can totally thrash them in safety. Cornugon Smash can handily be replaced with Enforcer and Blade of Mercy.

The reach should stack with all the usual alchemist's tricks to boost up reach. Tripping may be tough at times but the bonus from grab on grapple should serve the hair strangler well. At the earliest convenience after the second witch level you'll want to find room for Final Embrace (only the first feat is useful). Using grab on creatures your size or less is a great boost, even better with transmutation effects. Ditching the metamagics and working towards Disheartening Display would go a long way on this character. That and I can't think of anything much more disheartening than having your skin ripped off by your opponent's hair.