The problem with Shadows

[Blackhawk748]

Ok i doubt im the only one who is annoyed at Shadows. Seriously what were they smoking when they stated this thing out? Its touch does 1d6 Str damage that kills you when your Str hits 0. So its Draimage? Damain? Seriously the fact that they couldnt just choose one drives me nuts, on top of that how is this thing CR 3? I mean sure its only Int 6, but thats smart enough to realize that it should hide inside objects and slap people until they die. The worst part is is that you can run into these things at level one, because hey random encounter, and if you do you die. Thats it. You run into a shadow at level 1 and you are pretty much just boned as you have no magic weapons, the Cleric cant turn it and the mage will probably die horribly before he can Disrupt Undead it to death. Oh ya and i almost forgot you cant even run away from it as it has a fly speed of 50ft. Its like a floating TPK

Personally ive kicked around the idea of changing their touch attack to 1d6 cold with a fort save or take 1 str damage (look familiar?) and when you die you become a shadow under the control of the one that killed you, as per normal.

There Rant done lol

[ericgrau]

I've fought them a few times. They're annoying but not that bad. They did hide in walls.

They can't stay in walls without spring attack, and even then the party can ready actions to hit them. Even though they're hard to hit 3 magic missiles will kill one. 2 if empowered. Or you can turn undead, or do half damage with other damage spells. Even at level 5, 3 fireballs can kill multiple, from 1 of the 4 party members. Or use holy water. Or carry 50 gp oil of magic weapon for emergencies. Meanwhile it takes 3 rounds to str damage a mage to 0 and 4-5 rounds for most others. 4 CR 3 shadows are EL 7 meaning a hard fight for a level 5 party or a routine fight for a level 7 party. I think that's a pretty safe bet. Honestly anyone who says magic missile or alchemical items or level 1 potions/oils are weak are ignoring 2 or more entire categories of foes. It's only a matter of learning basic D&D preparedness. You don't have to fill your resources with these minor options; you can have them as dirt cheap backups on top of your main options. Don't coddle the PCs or you'll have to remove way more than shadows from the monster list.

[Gullintanni]

I've fought them a few times. They're annoying but not that bad. They did hide in walls.

They can't stay in walls without spring attack, and even then the party can ready actions to hit them. Even though they're hard to hit 3 magic missiles will kill one. 2 if empowered. Or you can turn undead, or do half damage with other damage spells. Even at level 5, 3 fireballs can kill multiple, from 1 of the 4 party members. Or use holy water. Or carry 50 gp oil of magic weapon for emergencies. Meanwhile it takes 3 rounds to str damage a mage to 0 and 4-5 rounds for most others. 4 CR 3 shadows are EL 7 meaning a hard fight for a level 5 party or a routine fight for a level 7 party. I think that's a pretty safe bet. Honestly anyone who says magic missile or alchemical items or level 1 potions/oils are weak are ignoring 2 or more entire categories of foes. It's only a matter of learning basic D&D preparedness. You don't have to fill your resources with these minor options; you can have them as dirt cheap backups on top of your main options. Don't coddle the PCs or you'll have to remove way more than shadows from the monster list.

While I agree with you that Shadows can be dealt with assuming adequate preparation, a novice party is going to be in a lot of trouble coming up against one.

They're not problematic, but if you're a DM, part of designing appropriate encounters is taking into account the OP level of your party, and their experience with the gaming system. I'm DMing for my little brothers and a few of their friends right now, and if I threw a Shadow at them, it'd be a TPK no question.

To the original post - Shadows are only a problem if your party hasn't prepared themselves for Incorporeal threats. Similarly, Swarms can also be a huge problem if the party isn't adequately prepared. Educate your players about these sorts of threats and how to face them, and you'll be just fine.

[Crake]

Its touch does 1d6 Str damage that kills you when your Str hits 0. So its Draimage? Damain? Seriously the fact that they couldnt just choose one drives me nuts

I'm not too sure of the source of your confusion as to whether it's damage or drain. It sounds like you're under the impression that if an ability is drained to 0 you die, which is not the case (excepting con of course). The difference between damage and drain is that damage heals normally and requires weaker spells to cure if you want to speed it up, wheras drain does not heal on it's own, and requires either expensive matieral components or XP to cure.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not too sure of the source of your confusion as to whether it's damage or drain. It sounds like you're under the impression that if an ability is drained to 0 you die, which is not the case (excepting con of course). The difference between damage and drain is that damage heals normally and requires weaker spells to cure if you want to speed it up, wheras drain does not heal on it's own, and requires either expensive matieral components or XP to cure.

Actually thats one of the things about Shadows that drives me nuts, they flat out call it Strength Damage, but in the same line they say if a shadow reduces you to 0 Strength with it you die.

[georgie_leech]

Actually thats one of the things about Shadows that drives me nuts, they flat out call it Strength Damage, but in the same line they say if a shadow reduces you to 0 Strength with it you die.

Right. It's Strength Damage with a special exception about what happens if it reduces Strength to 0. Rather than lying helpless, the victim dies. What's so hideous about that? Early deadliness aside, I mean.

[Raven777]

One CR3 Shadow is an appropriate encounter for the standard 3rd level party. At 3rd level, the party's Rogue and Fighter should reasonably be rocking +1 weapons and the Wizard's Magic Missiles should come out in volleys of two. A solitary Shadow will usually get one-rounded or two-rounded. Then the party will collectively have to deal with one round or two worth of Strength damage, which is par for the course with the profession of adventurer. They can choose to forge ahead at their own risk while debuffed, or take a rest for their 3rd level Cleric or Druid to prepare a couple of Lesser Restoration castings.

Now, if you are throwing more than one shadow at a 3rd level party, we're not talking CR3 anymore. Two Shadows are CR5 and four Shadows are CR7. A gang of four Shadows is a deadly encounter to a 3rd level party, and it is entirely believable that such a party encountering that gang is going to be slaughtered.

[atemu1234]

One CR3 Shadow is an appropriate encounter for the standard 3rd level party. At 3rd level, the party's Rogue and Fighter should reasonably be rocking +1 weapons and the Wizard's Magic Missiles should come out in volleys of two. A solitary Shadow will usually get one-rounded or two-rounded. Then the party will collectively have to deal with one round or two worth of Strength damage, which is par for the course with the profession of adventurer. They can choose to forge ahead at their own risk while debuffed, or take a rest for their 3rd level Cleric or Druid to prepare a couple of Lesser Restoration castings.

Now, if you are throwing more than one shadow at a 3rd level party, we're not talking CR3 anymore. Two Shadows are CR5 and four Shadows are CR7. A gang of four Shadows is a deadly encounter to a 3rd level party, and it is entirely believable that such a party encountering that gang is going to be slaughtered.

Unless it went for the wizard first, who, as per usual, dumped strength, hides in walls and waits for the others to provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Blackhawk748]

One CR3 Shadow is an appropriate encounter for the standard 3rd level party. At 3rd level, the party's Rogue and Fighter should reasonably be rocking +1 weapons and the Wizard's Magic Missiles should come out in volleys of two. A solitary Shadow will usually get one-rounded or two-rounded. Then the party will collectively have to deal with one round or two worth of Strength damage, which is par for the course with the profession of adventurer. They can choose to forge ahead at their own risk while debuffed, or take a rest for their 3rd level Cleric or Druid to prepare a couple of Lesser Restoration castings.

Now, if you are throwing more than one shadow at a 3rd level party, we're not talking CR3 anymore. Two Shadows are CR5 and four Shadows are CR7. A gang of four Shadows is a deadly encounter to a 3rd level party, and it is entirely believable that such a party encountering that gang is going to be slaughtered.

A third level party can take one on, it may be rough but they could do it. The main issue is that, according to the DMG, a level 1 or 2 party should run into a CR 3 encounter a certain percentage of the time (my math skills arent great so im not sure what the number is) and if that happens, one your DM is a Jerk and secondly youll probably die.

I guess im really just annoyed that they couldnt just go with Damage, i mean ya it cant kill you but Ability Damage at low levels still sucks.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hide From Undead. Cleric 1 spell, lets you walk right past Shadows without any issue. One of the most underrated spells around.
Magic Missile. Wizard 1 spell, will affect Shadow's just like it does everything else and will kill one within a few rounds.
Magic Weapon. Cleric or Wizard 1 spell, will let your melee attackers whack a Shadow 50% of the time and they should kill it with an attack or two.
Disrupt Undead. Wizard 0 spell, deals 1d6 damage to undead.

Holy Water. Has a 50% chance of affecting a Shadow and three or so doses will usually drop a Shadow.

----
One Shadow only does 1d6 points of Strength damage per turn. That is at least 2 turns to kill pretty much any character and on average it is 3 to 4 turns.

If a party is totally unprepared then yeah, a Shadow can TPK them but generally a party should not be totally unprepared.

[georgie_leech]

A third level party can take one on, it may be rough but they could do it. The main issue is that, according to the DMG, a level 1 or 2 party should run into a CR 3 encounter a certain percentage of the time (my math skills arent great so im not sure what the number is) and if that happens, one your DM is a Jerk and secondly youll probably die.

I guess im really just annoyed that they couldnt just go with Damage, i mean ya it cant kill you but Ability Damage at low levels still sucks.

Preventing the shadow from having any way of killing something reduces it from undead monstrosity that most people, especially commoners that lack Adventurer Options, would be utterly terrified of into something that never rises above a nuisance. I'd have a hard time pegging something that is literally incapable of killing something at CR 3, but it's numbers and incorporeal nature are still inappropriate for lower CR's.

[ericgrau]

A third level party can take one on, it may be rough but they could do it. The main issue is that, according to the DMG, a level 1 or 2 party should run into a CR 3 encounter a certain percentage of the time (my math skills arent great so im not sure what the number is) and if that happens, one your DM is a Jerk and secondly youll probably die.

I guess im really just annoyed that they couldnt just go with Damage, i mean ya it cant kill you but Ability Damage at low levels still sucks.
Any CR 3 encounter could be deadly at level 1. Any CR + 2 encounter might sometimes kill a party member at any level, though it is worse at level 1. Level 1 in general is dangerous. If you don't like it, then start at level 3-5 rather than nerfing every CR 3 monster. Or tell the players to bring backup characters.

Actually I always thought ability damage is worse at high level. At level 1 your ability scores could be higher than your hp total. At 0 hp you go unconscious rather than dead, but it only takes 1 more action or a crit on the first hit to fix that.

I do agree that if the party is all new players then don't throw weird foes at them since they won't know what to do.

[Marlowe]

At 3rd level, the party's Rogue and Fighter should reasonably be rocking +1 weapons

Any +1 weapon=2000 gp
Level 3 wealth=2700gp

It's possible. But that would be well over 2/3rd of each characters WBL invested in one item. I know a lot of people, myself included, who invest in healing items, lightweight armour, and/or extradimensional storage space over minor weapon enhancements.

[Zanos]

Any +1 weapon=2000 gp
Level 3 wealth=2700gp

It's possible. But that would be well over 2/3rd of each characters WBL invested in one item. I know a lot of people, myself included, who invest in healing items, lightweight armour, and/or extradimensional storage space over minor weapon enhancements.
Isn't there also a rule somewhere that characters can't start with a single item in excess of half their WBL? I've seen that rule in a lot of campaigns, in any case.

Also, a +1 weapon is 2300gp + base weapon cost. It has to be masterwork first, remember.

[Blackhawk748]

Isn't there also a rule somewhere that characters can't start with a single item in excess of half their WBL? I've seen that rule in a lot of campaigns, in any case.

Its in the DMG, and i thought there was something like that, but i may have been losing my mind (it happens)

[JusticeZero]

If you are getting Shadows randomly thrown at you at level 1 - 2, you need to patch your GM to a better version somehow. Or just, you know, RUN AWAY and spend some time preparing for them, which should always be an option. You cannot expect to be able to deal with any given threat without preparation and win all the time. Sometimes you have to fall back to acquire Kryptonite from somewhere.

[Zanos]

If you are getting Shadows randomly thrown at you at level 1 - 2, you need to patch your GM to a better version somehow. Or just, you know, RUN AWAY and spend some time preparing for them, which should always be an option. You cannot expect to be able to deal with any given threat without preparation and win all the time. Sometimes you have to fall back to acquire Kryptonite from somewhere.
Shadows are probably faster than everyone in the party, and even if they're only faster than one person, that person is dead unless the shadow stops caring.

[Blackhawk748]

Shadows are probably faster than everyone in the party, and even if they're only faster than one person, that person is dead unless the shadow stops caring.

They ARE faster than everyone, unless you are a Nezumi Jaguar Barbarian with the Quick trait (60ft landspeed that way) otherwise you are either the same distance from them or they catch you and you die.

And this isnt a particular problem im having in game, its just a thing that has bothered me for a long time. They expect a 1-2 lvl party to be able to fight them with the bulk of their resources, and thats fine if you know its coming. If you dont (and lets be honest you only find out whats next at low levels by walking into it) you have very good odds of dying and running away isnt even an option.

This is why parties i DM for never run into shadows until at least one person has a magic weapon, because i dont want them to die because they cant escape or rolled badly on their Magic Missile (of which you have what 3 or 4 of these at level one?)

[Phelix-Mu]

Maybe it's just my experience from older editions, but one of the reasons why adventurers have a rep for being masochistic idiots engaging in insane quests widely believed suicidal is because of stuff like shadows. Unless a party really has its stuff together, there are a number of pretty basic monsters (like shadows) that can wreck their day.

But if the party members are going around like they're in DOOM or something and think they can just steamroll through the dungeon, then they deserve what they get, in my mind. The adventuring life is supposed to be dangerous, otherwise everyone would do it. So I don't have much of a problem opening the can of whoopass on them, or being the recipient of said can when I am playing.

Now, there are some problems involving how spawn function, imho, and when used as part of a minion force by a competent boss monster they can be pretty formidable. But I think that is more by design. Remember, a party is expected to outfit itself for dangerous monsters and use teamwork to best advantage. A party that isn't prepped or that drops the ball in the encounter should get wrecked.

Withdrawal is always an option, too. Although running from hungry shadows could be challenging; ooh, just thought up a nice chase encounter for low levels. Undead don't get tired of running! Now in "Walls, what walls?" version!

EDIT: As to the running away, I guess that would be pretty hard, but remember that undead don't have excellent detection methods most of the time. They're not particularly smart, so they could probably be fooled with some pretty basic misdirection methods while in most dungeons. Out in the open, though, characters would be pretty boned.

[Marlowe]

This is why parties i DM for never run into shadows until at least one person has a magic weapon, because i dont want them to die because they cant escape or rolled badly on their Magic Missile (of which you have what 3 or 4 of these at level one?)

More likely one. The wizard's unlikely to prepare more than that unless he knows in advance he's dealing with incorporeals. The sorceror is unlikely to have MMissile known at level one (it'll be Mage Armour and Color Spray or Sleep most of the time). Magic Weapon is not prepared nearly as often as you might think either. It was even named a week or so ago as an example of a spell nobody uses.:smalleek:

In some respects, the best weapon against Undead Incorporals at level one is Cure Light Wounds. Touch attack, no miss chance, and most Clerics can be guaranteed to have it available--trouble is at level 1 you've only got two of those.

EDIT: Forgot Shadow's Touch AC=Full AC.

[Crake]

Holy Water. Has a 50% chance of affecting a Shadow and three or so doses will usually drop a Shadow.

I thought, as a positive energy effect, holy water didn't have a 50% miss chance against incorporeal, but you couldn't use it as a ranged attack, you had to be adjacent and splash it on them? That said, a shadow's touch AC is pretty decent for CR3

[Marlowe]

Holy water specifically still has the miss chance. It's in the Incorporeal description.

[Crake]

Holy water specifically still has the miss chance. It's in the Incorporeal description.

Ah, so it does, right after the section i stopped reading at haha

[Marlowe]

Anyway, it seems like the best insurance against That Which Knows The Evil That Lurks In The Heart Of Man is a healing belt for everyone. And staying away from walls. In a dungeon. Easy.:smalleek:

[atemu1234]

Anyway, it seems like the best insurance against That Which Knows The Evil That Lurks In The Heart Of Man is a healing belt for everyone. And staying away from walls. In a dungeon. Easy.:smalleek:

I got that reference!

The shadow knows...

[ILM]

Hide From Undead. Cleric 1 spell, lets you walk right past Shadows without any issue. One of the most underrated spells around.
Magic Missile. Wizard 1 spell, will affect Shadow's just like it does everything else and will kill one within a few rounds.
Magic Weapon. Cleric or Wizard 1 spell, will let your melee attackers whack a Shadow 50% of the time and they should kill it with an attack or two.
Disrupt Undead. Wizard 0 spell, deals 1d6 damage to undead.

Holy Water. Has a 50% chance of affecting a Shadow and three or so doses will usually drop a Shadow.
Because every properly-prepared wizard fills his 3 level 1 slots with Magic Missiles, which would give him a slightly-better-than 50% chance of killing a Shadow with average hp.

Yes, there are ways, but unless you're actually prepared for a Shadow you're not likely to have any of these options ready. Don't try to minimize the threat, a Shadow's incredibly dangerous for a level 3 party.

[Phelix-Mu]

Because every properly-prepared wizard fills his 3 level 1 slots with Magic Missiles, which would give him a slightly-better-than 50% chance of killing a Shadow with average hp.

Yes, there are ways, but unless you're actually prepared for a Shadow you're not likely to have any of these options ready. Don't try to minimize the threat, a Shadow's incredibly dangerous for a level 3 party.

A sensible wizard scribes scroll copies of spells that are situationally vital, but generally not optimal. Yes, shadows can wreck parties not anticipating some day fighting something incorporeal. And they should, cause it would be a really lame party that doesn't anticipate one of the major threats that adventurers face.

I'm not saying they aren't strong. They are. But the game is calibrated to allow for threats that occasionally hit the table as effectively 1-3 CR higher than listed (as per a "challenging" encounter in the DMG). For a party anticipating them (I would refer to such a party as "survivors"), they probably aren't even that hard, as Tippy suggests.

[Zaq]

A sensible wizard scribes scroll copies of spells that are situationally vital, but generally not optimal. Yes, shadows can wreck parties not anticipating some day fighting something incorporeal. And they should, cause it would be a really lame party that doesn't anticipate one of the major threats that adventurers face.

I'm not saying they aren't strong. They are. But the game is calibrated to allow for threats that occasionally hit the table as effectively 1-3 CR higher than listed (as per a "challenging" encounter in the DMG). For a party anticipating them (I would refer to such a party as "survivors"), they probably aren't even that hard, as Tippy suggests.

Magic Missile is the exact opposite of the kind of spell you put on a scroll. It's very highly dependent on CL to be useful. A scroll that just does 1d4 + 1 isn't really my idea of GP Well Spent, let alone the (admittedly minor, but nonzero) XP/time costs. You scribe scrolls for spells you only need once in a while to solve problems, but 1d4 + 1 isn't going to solve any problems.

[Zanos]

Magic Missile is the exact opposite of the kind of spell you put on a scroll. It's very highly dependent on CL to be useful. A scroll that just does 1d4 + 1 isn't really my idea of GP Well Spent, let alone the (admittedly minor, but nonzero) XP/time costs. You scribe scrolls for spells you only need once in a while to solve problems, but 1d4 + 1 isn't going to solve any problems.
Scrolls of Magic Weapon would be pretty useful, though.

[ericgrau]

Because every properly-prepared wizard fills his 3 level 1 slots with Magic Missiles, which would give him a slightly-better-than 50% chance of killing a Shadow with average hp.

Yes, there are ways, but unless you're actually prepared for a Shadow you're not likely to have any of these options ready. Don't try to minimize the threat, a Shadow's incredibly dangerous for a level 3 party.

The wizard doesn't need to beat the shadow by himself. He should have one magic missile in one of his slots since it's a great multi-purpose backup, not only for shadows. At 3rd level I tend to have a flaming sphere too which can do half damage against the shadow's low hp. I get it because it's decent damage and few low level foes in general are immune to it. The other party members should have oil of magic weapon and/or holy water. If the entire party is prepared then they will drop its low hp in one round, two counting a buff round if needed for magic weapon. If half the party is prepared it's still not that hard. Anyone hit hard by the shadow can withdraw, and if the shadow pursues then it can't attack in the same round that it double moves. So it can pretty much never hit someone running away with a speed of 30 feet even though it can chase that foe forever. A 20 foot speed foe maybe, but even then he has to spend a round catching up to the foe. That's 2-3 rounds to hit, two rounds to chase and hit, and it's likely to be dead before round 4-5.

And way to pick out worst case scenario, sending a lone foe of CR = party level against a low level party. PCs can still be one shotted that early. A CR 3 ogre averages 16 damage, 32 on a crit. d4s average you 9 hp + 3 * con mod. Normally at low level if you use any lone foe you can expect a lot of luck to be involved.

[Invader]

I feel like the argument is that a creature that's 2 over the party ECL could wipe the party if they're totally unprepared for that particular challenge.

To me it seems like the same holds true for dozens of other creatures and nothing about shadows makes them anymore particularly deadly than anything else you could pick.

[georgie_leech]

I feel like the argument is that a creature that's 2 over the party ECL could wipe the party if they're totally unprepared for that particular challenge.

To me it seems like the same holds true for dozens of other creatures and nothing about shadows makes them anymore particularly deadly than anything else you could pick.

It seems like it's a question of perceived challenge. While I agree that Shadow's aren't especially deadly, contrast with, say, an Ogre. An unprepared party can at least attack the brute and hope for lucky rolls. They might be able to kite it, or lead it to an ambush using the heavily armored Fighter as bait and hope for the best. With Shadows, an unprepared party can literally do nothing to stop it. It moves through obstacles, ignores armor (not AC, just armor), flies faster than most classes can flee on foot, and most importantly, can't even be attacked if the party doesn't have access to magic weapons or some other magical means. Even though the Ogre is far more likely to instantly kill one or more of the PC's, that unstoppable impression that Shadows give can be pretty intimidating.

[Equilibria]

So don't send a shadow against the party.... problem solved.

If the players are new to the game, pick an easier foe... If the players are unprepared, pick an easier foe... it's not THAT difficult.

Also... it's a well known fact that CR's are totally unreliable... some common sense are required.

[Marlowe]

SNIP

All this demands safe, clear room to move. Probably in a cramped environment against a foe that can go through walls. It would be strange if this is be the case all the time.

Also, its very likely that the Str damage from the Shadows attack would move people up an encumbrance category, slowing them down further. It's a situation that can get worse exponentially quickly.

[SiuiS]

Ok i doubt im the only one who is annoyed at Shadows. Seriously what were they smoking when they stated this thing out?

Statted has two Ts in the middle. Or do you want to know what they were smoking when they said the word shadow? Probably nothing. It's a common word.

Shadows are a legacy creature, is why.


Its touch does 1d6 Str damage that kills you when your Str hits 0. So its Draimage? Damain? Seriously the fact that they couldnt just choose one drives me nuts,

Sounds like they did. Damage.


on top of that how is this thing CR 3? I mean sure its only Int 6, but thats smart enough to realize that it should hide inside objects and slap people until they die.

No it's not. Int 6 is smart enough to not tell if something is a threat – you can keep a shadow occupied with summon undead and it will just wail on your zombie the whole time.

A level 1 caster can use stuff like magic missile, spiritual weapon, and similar to damage them. You can also just run.


The worst part is is that you can run into these things at level one, because hey random encounter, and if you do you die. Thats it. You run into a shadow at level 1 and you are pretty much just boned as you have no magic weapons, the Cleric cant turn it and the mage will probably die horribly before he can Disrupt Undead it to death. Oh ya and i almost forgot you cant even run away from it as it has a fly speed of 50ft. Its like a floating TPK

Undead have Con – and cannot run. You can. 50' < 120'.

Shadows are supposed to be played as malignant darkness. Just being in daylight should protect you. They won't use guerrilla tactics, they will just rush you. They cluster because they rush. They are nigh-mindless because they're malignancy and insanity and death and craving, so they're easy to outthink. Anything else is a DM being a jerk.

[Marlowe]

I'm pretty sure INT 6 isn't the same as "mindless". Most wild animals have lower intelligence and are quite capable of stalking, ambushing, utilising special movement abilities, recognizing what's a threat and what isn't.

Also; and this seems like a nitpick, but you mocked the OP for a spelling mistake and a figure of speech so what goes around comes around: Spiritual Weapon is a level 2 spell and can't be cast by a level 1.

[Blackhawk748]

Undead have Con – and cannot run. You can. 50' < 120'.

From what i understand this is still under debate. In any case you still need to move in a straight line (good luck doing that in a dungeon) and the beatstick is still probably screwed as their speed is most likely 20 so they can only run 80 and the Shadow can just double move in front of them.

[Gwendol]

Shadows are by far one of the deadlier encounters at low level, and often touted as an example of how critical arcane/divine support is to an adventuring team.

[ericgrau]

All this demands safe, clear room to move. Probably in a cramped environment against a foe that can go through walls. It would be strange if this is be the case all the time.

Also, its very likely that the Str damage from the Shadows attack would move people up an encumbrance category, slowing them down further. It's a situation that can get worse exponentially quickly.

Exponential is actually a drawback in a typical D&D fight. If you can't take out your foe quickly and need to build up to epic pain, you're probably already dead. Taking out a shadow easily in 2-3 rounds with even a half prepared party works anywhere. All the shadows I fought were indoors. And with part of the party as rookies. If you have even one party member with 50 gp oil of magic weapon or a +1 weapon, it's merely a tough fight. Simply put: low damage, low hp. They're only trouble if you have absolutely zero preparation, and even then you can run. He can keep up, but he can't keep up and attack simultaneously. If you have a short race PC, spread out, sacrifice him and then the other 3 get away.

Otherwise if you have even a shred of preparation an ogre that can one shot low level PCs is still scarier. By which I mean as an example of anything CR 3.

[SiuiS]

I'm pretty sure INT 6 isn't the same as "mindless". Most wild animals have lower intelligence and are quite capable of stalking, ambushing, utilising special movement abilities, recognizing what's a threat and what isn't.

Animals are not undead facsimiles of existence with mindless thirst either. If you remove what a shadow is from the mechanics a shadow has been given, then you've missed the point; shadows have fifty years of consistent portrayal in media and especially in game. Undead like shadows aren't mindless but they are so focused by their malignant nature they have tunnel vision. That's part of what they are supposed to be.

Of course, I remember when a valid tactic to disperse shadows was to throw silver coins at them. You young'ns don't have the same understanding that a creature is both it's mechanics and the intention behind how they are utilized.


Also; and this seems like a nitpick, but you mocked the OP for a spelling mistake and a figure of speech so what goes around comes around: Spiritual Weapon is a level 2 spell and can't be cast by a level 1.

Precocious apprentice or sanctum spell or a scroll for low cost. Although I was indeed thinking of somehing else; persistent blade, spell compendium 154, creates a force dagger which fights and flanks on it's own. I've been reading a lot of spell compendium lately.

I also didn't mock for a spelling mistake. It's not a spelling mistake; it's the wrong word. The OP probably doesn't even know these two words are different. The OP didn't simply leave out a letter by accident; the OP carefully chose the wrong word and conveyed an entirely different meaning by accident. That is worth pointing out. I've actually gone into threads expecting discussion of eg true naming because of it and so have others around here. If I thought it was a mistake of spelling I would let it be.

[Zanos]

Undead have Con – and cannot run. You can. 50' < 120'.
While it's true that Con nonability always fails constitution checks, it's also in the con nonability description that:

A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature's description says it cannot run).

[Marlowe]

Animals are not undead facsimiles of existence with mindless thirst either. If you remove what a shadow is from the mechanics a shadow has been given, then you've missed the point; shadows have fifty years of consistent portrayal in media and especially in game. Undead like shadows aren't mindless but they are so focused by their malignant nature they have tunnel vision. That's part of what they are supposed to be.] Perhaps you could be more specific about which works of literature dating from 1964 or thereabouts feature Shadows? I'm drawing a blank.


Of course, I remember when a valid tactic to disperse shadows was to throw silver coins at them. You young'ns don't have the same understanding that a creature is both it's mechanics and the intention behind how they are utilized. So, every interpretation of any rule ever from any edition is valid at your table?:smallconfused:

I'm not going to start a RAI argument spanning different editions; and I'm not interested in started a fight by my own opinion of AD&D. Suffice to say that I am probably older than you, that I did play the game a bit back them, that I did not play it very often, and that by choice I preferred to play pretty much anything else.

I will say that when rules change, rules change. So do intentions and even basic assumptions. Early editions of D&D were based very much on the dark and nasty American pulp tradition. Later editions tend to be based more on later, generally higher-fantasy, generally more optimistic works. You don't get to tell people that they're doing it wrong simply because it doesn't match up with how you used to do it a long time ago in a place far, far away.

The 3.5 version of the Shadow is a sentient Undead with INT 6. If it was supposed to be played in the manner of a mindless zombie, that probably should be written down somewhere.



Precocious apprentice or sanctum spell or a scroll for low cost. Although I was indeed thinking of somehing else; persistent blade, spell compendium 154, creates a force dagger which fights and flanks on it's own. I've been reading a lot of spell compendium lately.

Oh good. More options for the Cleric and the Wizard. The classes that REALLY needed them.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Just out of interest. Birthday today, and feeling old. So thanks for "young 'un."

[SiuiS]

While it's true that Con nonability always fails constitution checks, it's also in the con nonability description that:

Yeah, there is that.


So, every interpretation of any rule ever from any edition is valid at your table?:smallconfused:

Antagonism is unnecessary, Marlowe. I don't know if you're reading any anger in my posts but there's none there. I feel like you're responding out of irritation at my surety than the veracity of my points.


*



How a shadow behaves, the characterization of 'shadow' isn't a rule and hasn't changed. It's the same base behavior you use when you make a troll a British bruiser or a red dragon who is vain, arrogant and intelligent. You're playing into that same inertia. Making trolls not brutish bruisers and playing red dragons differently is also specifically a subversion, an exception that proves the rule as it were.

You said animals were less intelligent and I said that animals were designed to imitate animals, and shadows were designed to imitate something else. Continual silly questions about the 1960s or tangents about the rules changing over time doesn't factor into that.

Reverse your position. Tell me what a shadow is that isn't a spiritual shell driven by malevolance and hatred for the living, back it up with stuff from the game (any edition, why not?) and we'll discuss the merits of that. Until then, "this is what shadows are" is an accurate statement whether you like it or not.


The 3.5 version of the Shadow is a sentient Undead with INT 6. If it was supposed to be played in the manner of a mindless zombie, that probably should be written down somewhere.

And if it was supposed to be played as an inevitable with fail-proof tracking through walls, it would have been given those abilities. But it's not, and I didn't say that was mindless in the game sense or a zombie in any way. I want to point out that you're referencing your prior knowledge of what zombies are supposed to be, here, more than what they are in game (hardy slow undead servitors), and yet you're mad at me for doing the same thing.

A shadow is not a zombie, nor is it an inevitable. It is however, a shadow, a creature named after a creature by people specifically looking to recreate the wheel with as much fidelity as possible while streamlining the underlying mechanics but leaving the veneer and the story the same. It behooves is to understand those roots because they never went away.



Oh good. More options for the Cleric and the Wizard.

Yup.


And of course. Although young'n was meant in the general sense, not the specific dismissive. Tone and Internet, et cetera. :smallsmile:

[Marlowe]

Zombies exist in media and in in the cultural consciousness beyond D&D. Shadows, as far as I'm aware; do not. Hence the "silly" question about the 60s. "Fifty years of consistent portrayal in media." you said. I'm asking you to back that up.

[Yahzi]

Zombies exist in media and in in the cultural consciousness beyond D&D. Shadows, as far as I'm aware; do not. Hence the "silly" question about the 60s. "Fifty years of consistent portrayal in media." you said. I'm asking you to back that up.
Shadows are so iconic they appeared in Dr. Who. As lurking, sneaky, malevolent creatures who were nonetheless intelligent and yet did not mob/swarm the party in a mad rush. Because, you know, that wouldn't be very... lurky.

A creature has to be more than just its stat block, just as a PC has to be more than its stat block. Shadows might technically be able to do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean their intelligence/personality/culture allows them too. A DM that plays a shadow like Sun Tzu is cheating just as much as a player that invents gunpowder and fiat currency.

[atemu1234]

Shadows are so iconic they appeared in Dr. Who. As lurking, sneaky, malevolent creatures who were nonetheless intelligent and yet did not mob/swarm the party in a mad rush. Because, you know, that wouldn't be very... lurky.

A creature has to be more than just its stat block, just as a PC has to be more than its stat block. Shadows might technically be able to do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean their intelligence/personality/culture allows them too. A DM that plays a shadow like Sun Tzu is cheating just as much as a player that invents gunpowder and fiat currency.

Having a basic sense of tactics =/= Sun Tzu.

For starters, there's a fine line between figuring out complex battle maneuvers and knowing that that one over there casting spells isn't as strong and that your touch makes it weaker, eventually killing it and making you a new friend.

Intelligence 6, while low by comparison, is not that horrible. Quite frankly, they're smarter than a lot of creatures. Just because they aren't doing algebra doesn't mean they can't figure out a weak spot.

Also, are we talking New Who or Classic? Because New Who doesn't make it iconic. I would've gone with the classic "We're afraid of the dark, afraid of the things we can't see" rationale for why Shadows are iconic. Pop culture aside, we do have a vast culture for these shadows to spring from.

[Psyren]

Hide From Undead. Cleric 1 spell, lets you walk right past Shadows without any issue. One of the most underrated spells around.
Magic Missile. Wizard 1 spell, will affect Shadow's just like it does everything else and will kill one within a few rounds.
Magic Weapon. Cleric or Wizard 1 spell, will let your melee attackers whack a Shadow 50% of the time and they should kill it with an attack or two.
Disrupt Undead. Wizard 0 spell, deals 1d6 damage to undead.

Holy Water. Has a 50% chance of affecting a Shadow and three or so doses will usually drop a Shadow.

----
One Shadow only does 1d6 points of Strength damage per turn. That is at least 2 turns to kill pretty much any character and on average it is 3 to 4 turns.

If a party is totally unprepared then yeah, a Shadow can TPK them but generally a party should not be totally unprepared.

While I do agree with this, I also think they are not something you can spring on a level 1 or even level 3 party - and therefore I think they are under-CR'ed.

[Marlowe]

New or Classic I'm not sure if "appearing on Dr Who" makes it "iconic". That's the show which at one point featured Count Dracula as a gigantic Cthulhuzilloid creature sleeping under a mountain. Not the usual iconic image of the old Count. It's had a lot of monsters over he years and I doubt you could call all of them "iconic".

Ironically, my major Shadow experience outside D&D was in Ancient Domains of Mystery, where they can't go through walls, don't drain anything, can speak and move quite slowly. I had a posse of them at one point named Mick, Keith, Bryan, Charlie, and Anita Pallenberg.

I spent a lot of time waiting for them to sort themselves out and catch up with me. Next time I went for ghouls named John, Paul, George and --who's that other one. Tip o' my tongue. Gettin' older...

[Elkad]

Any +1 weapon=2000 gp
Level 3 wealth=2700gp

It's possible. But that would be well over 2/3rd of each characters WBL invested in one item. I know a lot of people, myself included, who invest in healing items, lightweight armour, and/or extradimensional storage space over minor weapon enhancements.

If I give a L2 party of medium characters a Small +1 Club and eleven magic crossbow bolts as their only magic weapons, they promptly sell them to buy Belts of Healing, and then get eaten by a Shadow, you can bet I'll have no sympathy for them.

NEVER sell your only magic weapon. I don't care if you are non-proficient and it's the wrong size, you always keep the first magic weapon until you can replace it with another magic weapon.

[Jarawara]

Yeah, I'm having problems with the idea of playing Shadows to their "iconic" image -- as I have never seen a shadow before in any movie or story before playing D&D. So I don't really know what the "iconic" shadow should be.

I have, since my first D&D shadow encounter, seen shadows in a movie. They hid in the darkness, reached out towards you, but as soon as someone else came (called out to the soon-to-be-victim), the shadows retreated back into the darkness. So yeah, the "iconic" version of the shadow should be timid and hide unseen, only venturing forth to ambush lone prey.

And of course, how better to hide-and-ambush than to hide within the walls and reach out to ambush.... which of course is exactly what we don't want.


Personally, I think the best way to play the shadow is to determine who they were in life, and play them to that personality. If they were vindictive and bloodthirsty, play them that way. If they were timid and fearful, play them that way. One of the best encounters I ever DMed was a ghost-like curious figure that followed the party around but retreated whenever the party investigated. When they finally forced an encounter with it, they found themselves fighting a superior, unkillable foe. Quick thinking saved the day, as they attempted to communicate, and the shadow was confused by the attempt and went back to timid curiosity.

[Vhaidara]

If I give a L2 party of medium characters a Small +1 Club and eleven magic crossbow bolts as their only magic weapons, they promptly sell them to buy Belts of Healing, and then get eaten by a Shadow, you can bet I'll have no sympathy for them.

NEVER sell your only magic weapon. I don't care if you are non-proficient and it's the wrong size, you always keep the first magic weapon until you can replace it with another magic weapon.

We're not talking about having been given one and selling it. We're talking about not having gotten one yet. The DMG specifically calls out that the GM should not assume that any item the PCs have is more than half of their WBL. Is the 2300 (actual minimum cost of +1 weapon, you guys forgot the masterwork component) less than half of 2700? No, it isn't. In fact, if they PCs started at level 2 (900 WBL), they have only gained 1800. Say they included a masterwork weapon in their starting items. They are still 200 gold shy of having it be a +1, assuming they can do that immediately upon getting the money.

[SiuiS]

Zombies exist in media and in in the cultural consciousness beyond D&D. Shadows, as far as I'm aware; do not. Hence the "silly" question about the 60s. "Fifty years of consistent portrayal in media." you said. I'm asking you to back that up.

LBB
Basic/expert
BECMI
AD&D 1 & 2
Spinoff games
Several novels I read from ages six to eight
Several comics I read from six to nine

Now, your turn to actually make an argument instead of just say I'm wrong: Reverse your position. Tell me what a shadow is that isn't a spiritual shell driven by malevolance and hatred for the living, back it up with stuff from the game (any edition, why not?) and we'll discuss the merits of that. Until then, "this is what shadows are" is an accurate statement whether you like it or not.


If I give a L2 party of medium characters a Small +1 Club and eleven magic crossbow bolts as their only magic weapons, they promptly sell them to buy Belts of Healing, and then get eaten by a Shadow, you can bet I'll have no sympathy for them.

Ha!



And of course, how better to hide-and-ambush than to hide within the walls and reach out to ambush.... which of course is exactly what we don't want.

What we are not wanting is the "why don't shadows unerringly find all living creatures and bum rush them in groups even in broad daylight spells and swarm enemies one at a time to defeat them, it's only logical", because undead are as a rule vaguely irrational. They were once rational people and then undeath warped and perverted them. That's a thing. They hate and shun light and life, and also seek to destroy it.

You can change that, but then if issues arise is not with the shadow, it's with using the tool in a way if wasn't meant to be used. "Well they shouldn't have meant for it to be used in a way they didn't clearly state" you could say, and the answer is yes. Yes they could have done a much better job. But D&D is a mix of rules set toolbox and setting, in different ratios based on who is writing what at the time. Paladins have gone from specific niches to a generic power set but retains the niche restrictions. Druids are balanced around being scimitar using healers who have scout friends and not bears with bears summoning bears.

A lot of things went wrong with RAW because the writers wrote D&D for D&D players as well as newbies and couldn't see their blind spots. You kind of need to acknowledge that if you want any end result pther than ranting about how much of a disconnected failure D&D 3e is that doesn't make sense and self contradicts.

[mashlagoo1982]

I always felt that the Dementors from Harry Potter were like Shadows.

[Deadline]

LBB
Basic/expert
BECMI
AD&D 1 & 2
Spinoff games
Several novels I read from ages six to eight
Several comics I read from six to nine


Now, your turn to actually make an argument instead of just say I'm wrong: Reverse your position. Tell me what a shadow is that isn't a spiritual shell driven by malevolance and hatred for the living, back it up with stuff from the game (any edition, why not?) and we'll discuss the merits of that. Until then, "this is what shadows are" is an accurate statement whether you like it or not.

The strikethrough are pretty much irrelevant to a discussion unless you can provide actual examples rather than vague references (which aren't helpful here). Also, when making a claim (as you did), the burden of proof is on you.

That said, "this is what shadows are" is an incomplete statement here, because you seem to be arguing your opinion. A more complete statement would be "this is what shadows are to me."

And where, in the specific examples that you cited, do shadows behave like mindless mobs that swarm the living? It's admittedly been a while since I've played older editions of D&D (my red box has been packed away for a long time), but I don't recall that being the listed behavior or description of shadows. But then, most of my interaction back then was through the GM, I didn't start GMing much D&D until the last gasping days of TSR.

[Urpriest]

LBB
Basic/expert
BECMI
AD&D 1 & 2
Spinoff games

Which aren't what you were talking about, since the only people questioning you were asking about your mention of the archetype outside of D&D.

Edit: Except apparently the above post for some mysterious reason.



Several novels I read from ages six to eight
Several comics I read from six to nine

Which apparently none of us ran into, hence why we're asking the question. Do you not remember a single title from those? And if so, why couldn't you have just said so?



Now, your turn to actually make an argument instead of just say I'm wrong: Reverse your position. Tell me what a shadow is that isn't a spiritual shell driven by malevolance and hatred for the living, back it up with stuff from the game (any edition, why not?) and we'll discuss the merits of that. Until then, "this is what shadows are" is an accurate statement whether you like it or not.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that. But that has nothing to do with whether they use tactics: most horror movie creatures motivated by malevolence and hatred of the living tend to do things like swarming one vulnerable character, or popping in and out of hiding places to harass their prey. Playing them as fluffed doesn't immediately imply playing them in a forgiving manner, especially for a novice DM.

[Eldariel]

They're a reason to carry scroll of Magic Weapon and scroll of Hide from Undead early on. Those don't make you autowin but they give you a fighting chance. And tossing 25gp at scrolls are probably a good investment when heading into forsaken tombs saturated by negative energy anyways. There are greater dangers than Shadows lurking in dark corners of the world. A low level party venturing into one should be wary indeed.

[Psyren]

Even mindless creatures can be cunning; Spiders and vines can lay in wait for instance, and oozes can pretend to be walls or floor. So Shadows can be tricky at least to that extent.

LM goes into greater detail on Shadow tactics in D&D:


Shadows lurk in dark places, aiming to surprise their victims. They typically gang up on a single foe, subjecting the target to multiple Strength-draining incorporeal touch attacks. A group of shadows can easily reduce a victim to helplessness or death in a short time. Because of their limited intelligence, shadows are as likely to pick a strong target as a weak one for these attacks, though they are smart enough to focus on foes who prove capable of harming them (such as with a ghost touch weapon or magic missiles). They aren’t as single-minded as many other undead, and often flee from bright light or tough opponents.

[Zanos]

We're not talking about having been given one and selling it. We're talking about not having gotten one yet. The DMG specifically calls out that the GM should not assume that any item the PCs have is more than half of their WBL. Is the 2300 (actual minimum cost of +1 weapon, you guys forgot the masterwork component) less than half of 2700? No, it isn't. In fact, if they PCs started at level 2 (900 WBL), they have only gained 1800. Say they included a masterwork weapon in their starting items. They are still 200 gold shy of having it be a +1, assuming they can do that immediately upon getting the money.

Isn't there also a rule somewhere that characters can't start with a single item in excess of half their WBL? I've seen that rule in a lot of campaigns, in any case.

Also, a +1 weapon is 2300gp + base weapon cost. It has to be masterwork first, remember.
I'm a guys too.

[Psyren]

An oil of magic weapon meanwhile is a mere 50gp and each one lasts a whole combat. Ghost Salts are pricier at 200gp a pop, but one dose can cover 10 arrows and negate the miss chance entirely.

[Raven777]

It's the same base behavior you use when you make a troll a British bruiser [...].

Troll with a top hat.

/thread

More seriously, here's your origin for shadows = undead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_(mythology)).

[Eldariel]

An oil of magic weapon meanwhile is a mere 50gp and each one lasts a whole combat. Ghost Salts are pricier at 200gp a pop, but one dose can cover 10 arrows and negate the miss chance entirely.

Scrolls for spellcasters are further half the price. Whenever I play a low level caster, Magic Weapon is a spell I make sure to have a scroll or two of precisely so there's some fighting chance against incorporeals. With more sources, more precise solutions become available, of course (though even then being able to act from walls still makes Shadows a force to reckon with - AC 14 and 50% miss chance still leaves them extremely hard to take down in the mundane means, and if they take significant damage, they escape fairly trivially and maybe try to ambush the party when they're fighting something else eating their attention, or resting, or whatever).

[Elkad]

We're not talking about having been given one and selling it. We're talking about not having gotten one yet. The DMG specifically calls out that the GM should not assume that any item the PCs have is more than half of their WBL. Is the 2300 (actual minimum cost of +1 weapon, you guys forgot the masterwork component) less than half of 2700? No, it isn't. In fact, if they PCs started at level 2 (900 WBL), they have only gained 1800. Say they included a masterwork weapon in their starting items. They are still 200 gold shy of having it be a +1, assuming they can do that immediately upon getting the money.

If I'm putting in an encounter with shadows, you can bet I've given the party a magic weapon or 2. Or at least oils and ammunition.

Generally by the end of 2nd level I've given out one weapon, plus a few missiles. The weapon is generally simple and light, and never the chosen weapon of any party member, so since it's merchant junk, it's realistically only worth half value (the sale price). And even at full value, a dozen +1 arrows is only 600gp.

Thinking about this just gave me another elegant solution. "Scabbard of Blessings: Holy symbols to (insert deity) cover it. Once a day, speak a brief prayer to (insert deity) while drawing the weapon, and the weapon receives the benefit of a Bless Weapon spell for 10 rounds." Or give it charges. Either way it's only a few hundred GP. Bless Weapon doesn't even give the players a hit bonus, but it does get by DR or Incorporeal. Nice toy for low-level characters.

In 1st/2nd I continued the trend at higher levels, since "+3 weapon to hit" was a thing. They always had something sub-optimal but with a high enhance bonus. Daggers, clubs, arrows, etc.

I'm not the only one either. I learned it from the pre-gen characters in the original Tomb of Horrors. Paladin had a stupid +1 Flametongue. Generally a crappy weapon for a 12th level character, but with it's +4 vs Undead, it was exactly what was needed to hit the demi-lich at the end.

[Marlowe]

If I give a L2 party of medium characters a Small +1 Club and eleven magic crossbow bolts as their only magic weapons, they promptly sell them to buy Belts of Healing, and then get eaten by a Shadow, you can bet I'll have no sympathy for them.


Neither would I. Especially since a Healing Belt can be used to make positive energy attacks and is a more effective weapon against shadows than any of the other stuff you listed.

In principle I agree though. If a DM gives you something it's probably with a good reason.




Now, your turn to actually make an argument instead of just say I'm wrong: Reverse your position. Tell me what a shadow is that isn't a spiritual shell driven by malevolance and hatred for the living, back it up with stuff from the game (any edition, why not?) and we'll discuss the merits of that. Until then, "this is what shadows are" is an accurate statement whether you like it or not.

.
Now. You are the one saying people playing Shadows in a certain way, in fact, by playing as as they are written, are doing it wrong. It's up to you to back that up. And "backing that up" reasonably means more than ignoring or disregarding RAW, making odd claims to unnamed books that none of us have ever encountered, and swinging your self-perceived Grognard status around like a blunt instrument.





Which apparently none of us ran into, hence why we're asking the question. Do you not remember a single title from those? And if so, why couldn't you have just said so?


Can't remember them from Peake, Hodgeson, Lovecraft, Howard, Smith, Leiber, Anderson, Vance, de Camp, Moorcock (shudder) or anyone else. There's a Howard Conan story called "The Slithering Shadow" but, if I recall correctly, the monster there is a big snake (again). And nobody remembers that story for anything other than the girl-on-girl whipping scene.:smalleek:


Troll with a top hat.

/thread

More seriously, here's your origin for shadows = undead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_(mythology)).

Trolls as British thugs is an amusing Hobbit reference. Although you run into a bit of trouble there. Because Trolls as a D&D monster have always had their description and behaviour taken almost verbatim from a completely different fantasy novel.

[Urpriest]

If I'm putting in an encounter with shadows, you can bet I've given the party a magic weapon or 2. Or at least oils and ammunition.

If you're putting in an encounter with shadows then you're doing so with some experience, or at least after reading this thread. The premise is that Shadows are ridiculously deadly in low-op groups, with inexperienced DMs.