Wizards and Traps

[heavyfuel]

So it's general consensus that Tier 1 casters can do anything. For the next table I'll be playing in, I've decided to play a lv5 God-ish Transmuter (Focused Specialist 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 2). The only issue is that the party lacks a trapfinder.

If I were to become the party's trapfinder, how would I go about doing it? Summon Monster a few times per day that lasts for 5 rounds each just doesn't cut it. Summon Elemental reserve feat would be good, except it only comes online at lv9.

Any other ways to go about it?

just don't suggest 2 minutes adventuring days. I know I can do that, but neither the party nor the DM likes this.

[Inevitability]

Unseen Servant could do some of the pressure-based stuff.

Dipping a level of cleric for Turn Undead (opening up divine metamagic) and the kobold domain wouldn't be very bad. There are enough cleric spells without saving throws to let you keep your wisdom low, allowing you to put points in charisma (for extra turning).

Also, just because you are a wizard doesn't mean you can't solve things without magic. Use 10-ft poles, roll a barrel full of water down a hallway, take enemies prisoner and force them to walk 30 foot in front of your group...

[heavyfuel]

Unseen Servant could do some of the pressure-based stuff.

Dipping a level of cleric for Turn Undead (opening up divine metamagic) and the kobold domain wouldn't be very bad. There are enough cleric spells without saving throws to let you keep your wisdom low, allowing you to put points in charisma (for extra turning).

Also, just because you are a wizard doesn't mean you can't solve things without magic. Use 10-ft poles, roll a barrel full of water down a hallway, take enemies prisoner and force them to walk 30 foot in front of your group...

Yeah, but only up to 20 pounds, which is explicitly stated to not work at least sometimes.

I'd really prefer to not lose any Wizard levels. Being a 4th level Wizard would make me lose 3rd level spells, which is huge. Also DMM only works for Divine Spells, so it's not useful, at all.

Kobold Domain is pretty good, especially with that 5th level ACF that allows for a Domain Granted Power. The main issue with this is delaying MotAO and access to the spellpool by 2 levels. As a secondary problem, the DM might not allow my Gnome to have access to the Kobold domain, even if I don't worship a deity. I'll save this idea in case nothing else shows up

Sure mundane solutions work, but anyone can to those. And it's not foolproof. Maybe the enemies have a way of walking past traps that we don't or something.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, but only up to 20 pounds, which is explicitly stated to not work at least sometimes.Ah, but they can drag up to 100 pounds.

So you get a bunch of mundane sacks, give the party Meatshield a miner's pick, and simply load the sacks with a 100 pounds of rocks (mined out of the wall), which the Unseen Servant then drags everywhere (note: It'll die to the first area effect, so get a wand of unseen servant for this).

At 5th, you qualify just fine for Magic Sensitive... which will usually see all the traps that are discriminatory enough not to be triggered by the bag of rocks.

[ericgrau]

Note that the servant moves 5 feet a round when dragging rocks. So it may take 25 rounds to check 5x5 squares in a single room for example. At least you won't have to worry about the 2 minute adventuring day, but then some of your buffs run out and then you find out the trap is on the door.

Mount makes a great longer lasting summoned creature. Also funnier to sacrifice terrified horses that were never trained for battle or danger. And counts as a living breathing creature. Lot of hp too. If only you could get it to look like a person and open doors somehow you'd be set.

[Brookshw]

Mount makes a great longer lasting summoned creature. Also funnier to sacrifice terrified horses that were never trained for battle or danger. And counts as a living breathing creature. If only you could get it to look like a person and open doors somehow you'd be set. Now I'm just thinking of the ToH tactic of driving a herd of cattle through the dungeon. Cattle drives, not all end the way or follow paths you'd expect.

[ericgrau]

Perhaps... improved familiar for a formian worker familiar (small size ant man), hat of disguise into a gnome or halfling, readied action to benign transposition with your horse the instant something goes off.

[Jack_Simth]

Note that the servant moves 5 feet a round when dragging rocks. So it may take 25 minutes to check 5x5 squares in a single room for example. At least you won't have to worry about the 2 minute adventuring day, but then some of your buffs run out and then you find out the trap is on the door.That's the exact same timeframe as a standard rogue using Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm), due to it's action cost: "It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side."

I really don't see the problem if the OP is trying to replace a rogue.

Mount makes a great longer lasting summoned creature. Also funnier to sacrifice terrified horses that were never trained for battle or danger. And counts as a living breathing creature. Lot of hp too. If only you could get it to look like a person and open doors somehow you'd be set.Yes and no. Yes, it lasts longer, has more HP, moves faster, and is heavier. However, it's just a dumb animal, and you're not using it as a mount... it's a summoned critter, so it'll obey you... IF you can talk to it. You're going to need to figure out how to make it understand you (Tongues, an additional, higher-level spell, might do it... or a splash in something for Speak with Animals).

[ericgrau]

That's the exact same timeframe as a standard rogue using Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm), due to it's action cost: "It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side."

I really don't see the problem if the OP is trying to replace a rogue.

The last quoted sentence. It is otherwise useful.



Yes and no. Yes, it lasts longer, has more HP, moves faster, and is heavier. However, it's just a dumb animal, and you're not using it as a mount... it's a summoned critter, so it'll obey you... IF you can talk to it. You're going to need to figure out how to make it understand you (Tongues, an additional, higher-level spell, might do it... or a splash in something for Speak with Animals).
Shove him, or speak with animals yeah.

[heavyfuel]

Ah, but they can drag up to 100 pounds.

So you get a bunch of mundane sacks, give the party Meatshield a miner's pick, and simply load the sacks with a 100 pounds of rocks (mined out of the wall), which the Unseen Servant then drags everywhere (note: It'll die to the first area effect, so get a wand of unseen servant for this).

At 5th, you qualify just fine for Magic Sensitive... which will usually see all the traps that are discriminatory enough not to be triggered by the bag of rocks.

Yeah, AoEs will suck against the Unseen Servant, but I don't think there are many mundane traps that deal area damage. Or are there?

While I qualify for Magic Sensitive, I can't pick it up until lv 6, much like a Druid can only pick Natural Spell at 6 even though he qualified on 5.


Note that the servant moves 5 feet a round when dragging rocks. So it may take 25 rounds to check 5x5 squares in a single room for example. At least you won't have to worry about the 2 minute adventuring day, but then some of your buffs run out and then you find out the trap is on the door.

Mount makes a great longer lasting summoned creature. Also funnier to sacrifice terrified horses that were never trained for battle or danger. And counts as a living breathing creature. Lot of hp too. If only you could get it to look like a person and open doors somehow you'd be set.

Yeah, 5ft/round kind of sucks, but it's somewhat better than the Rogue's 5ft/20 rounds (assuming he takes 20 with Search)

The Light Horse only has 19 HP. That isn't a lot unless I'm missing something...


Perhaps... improved familiar for a formian worker familiar (small size ant man), hat of disguise into a gnome or halfling, readied action to benign transposition with your horse the instant something goes off.

You can't ready actions outside combat, so it doesn't work.

[Jack_Simth]

The last quoted sentence. It is otherwise useful.
The buffs running out? That will happen with a standard rogue anyway. As the OP is essentially replacing a rogue, there's no practical difference.
Shove him, or speak with animals yeah.Speak with Animals only lasts 1 minute/level, and is a personal spell, so it'll be a bit on the tricky side to get it on a Wizard. Tongues lasts a reasonable length of time (10 minutes/level), but is a 3rd level spell that doesn't match the OP's focused speciality.

If you're shoving the animal around, you've got a bit of a problem in that if it triggers any area effect, you're in it. An Unseen Servant, for the OP, can easily be 25 feet away (the range of a wand of the spell) or even 35 feet away (the range of an actual casting).


Yeah, AoEs will suck against the Unseen Servant, but I don't think there are many mundane traps that deal area damage. Or are there?
Many? No. Some? Yes: Compacting Room, CR 6, for instance.

While I qualify for Magic Sensitive, I can't pick it up until lv 6, much like a Druid can only pick Natural Spell at 6 even though he qualified on 5.They can be taken as Wizard Bonus Feats per the Reserve Feat Header - which means if you delay Mage of the Arcane Order by two levels (how are you qualifying at 3rd to take it at 4th, anyway? It requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana)) and have it at game start.

Or you can just take your chances on a scroll of Permanency.

Yeah, 5ft/round kind of sucks, but it's somewhat better than the Rogue's 5ft/20 rounds (assuming he takes 20 with Search)

The Light Horse only has 19 HP. That isn't a lot unless I'm missing something...
It's not, but it's noticably more than the Unseen Servant's 6.

[heavyfuel]

They can be taken as Wizard Bonus Feats per the Reserve Feat Header - which means if you delay Mage of the Arcane Order by two levels (how are you qualifying at 3rd to take it at 4th, anyway? It requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana)) and have it at game start.


Hmm. Didn't know Wizards could take Reserve feats as bonus feats. That's good to know. Also, totally skipped my mind that K Arc 8 prereq. Yeah, I suppose Kobold Domain Power is better as it can be used for mundane traps as well, and can't be fooled by a simple Magic Aura spel, but if I can't pick it up, at will Detect Magic will have to do.



It's not, but it's noticably more than the Unseen Servant's 6.

At lv 5, I don't think this will make much of a difference. May be able to resist one extra trap, but that's about it. The fact that the horse will also make lots of noise makes it not as good as Unseen Servant.

[ericgrau]

You can't ready actions outside combat, so it doesn't work.
Where's the rule for that?


The buffs running out? That will happen with a standard rogue anyway. As the OP is essentially replacing a rogue, there's no practical difference. Speak with Animals only lasts 1 minute/level, and is a personal spell, so it'll be a bit on the tricky side to get it on a Wizard. Tongues lasts a reasonable length of time (10 minutes/level), but is a 3rd level spell that doesn't match the OP's focused speciality.

Continue to the rest of the sentence.

The mount is trained so you can expect it to reasonably do anything a pet could and it specifically knows how to come, heel and stay. I imagine you can get him to move forward with your hand to try to get him to run down a hallway then call him back. Or use ventriloquism to get him to come to certain spots, though that's only 1 min/level. Especially if you step behind him out of sight then ventriloquism as if you're now around a corner or muffled behind a door (fake the muffling). A 750 gp wand might be handy. Or get multiple mounts so that they fill the hallways and what not and run around everywhere.

Easier than summon monster I anyway. That also requires communication to do anything other than attack, which is something people tend to miss. At least the horse is riding trained and can understand 3 commands too.

Come to think of it, horses don't often look backwards. Have your unseen servant ride him across traps. And that way you get a door opener and wall checker too. Maybe have your servant hold up a human-like outfit and mask for the visuals.

[jedipotter]

How about Charm or Dominate a trap finder?

A humucliuls, effegy, golem, or other construct works great too.

You can create undead to find traps.

Create Fetch, is a 4th level spell that makes a duplicate of the caster for 10 min/level.....it will be useful at 7th level, so watch for it.

[Inevitability]

Kobold Domain is pretty good, especially with that 5th level ACF that allows for a Domain Granted Power. The main issue with this is delaying MotAO and access to the spellpool by 2 levels. As a secondary problem, the DM might not allow my Gnome to have access to the Kobold domain, even if I don't worship a deity. I'll save this idea in case nothing else shows up.

Lets go with excuse backstory No. 1. 'My character was raised by kobolds'.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can't help noticing that a lot of these will -trigger- the traps. That can sometimes be a -very- bad thing, i.e. the harmless pressure plate that triggers the alarm telling the enemy you're there. You can pick up trapfinding for a pair of feats; shape soulmeld (thieves gloves) and open least chakra (hands). Obviously you don't want to waste those on yourself but if you trade your familiar for an animal companion (I'd suggest something in an ape) and pick up one of the feats that make it a celestial or fiendish creature you get a literal trap-monkey as a class feature.


OMG I just got a mental image of the monkey signing "trap here, don't walk.":smallbiggrin:

[Synar]

Can't help noticing that a lot of these will -trigger- the traps. That can sometimes be a -very- bad thing, i.e. the harmless pressure plate that triggers the alarm telling the enemy you're there. You can pick up trapfinding for a pair of feats; shape soulmeld (thieves gloves) and open least chakra (hands). Obviously you don't want to waste those on yourself but if you trade your familiar for an animal companion (I'd suggest something in an ape) and pick up one of the feats that make it a celestial or fiendish creature you get a literal trap-monkey as a class feature.


OMG I just got a mental image of the monkey signing "trap here, don't walk.":smallbiggrin:

How can you trade the familiar for an animal companion? Is it homebrew or is there an ACF/feat for that?

[torrasque666]

How can you trade the familiar for an animal companion? Is it homebrew or is there an ACF/feat for that?

Unearthed Arcana mentions it when its listing its more "here's a loss and a gain" ACFs. Wiz/Sorc can trade familiar for an Animal Companion using half their level for the effective druid level.

[heavyfuel]

Where's the rule for that?

In the SRD


Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.

[...]
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).


Lets go with excuse backstory No. 1. 'My character was raised by kobolds'.

Aka, how to have books thrown at you :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I don't think Kobolds even exist in his world, as he's going for a LotR style campaign. It was tough to convince him to let me play a gnome, I can't imagine he'll allow for a kobold raised one.

The other issue I just noteiced with Kobold domain, is that the class skills will only become so at lv5, which means they'll be horribly under-ranked. Sure, they can be boosted with items and feats, but still.


Can't help noticing that a lot of these will -trigger- the traps. That can sometimes be a -very- bad thing, i.e. the harmless pressure plate that triggers the alarm telling the enemy you're there. You can pick up trapfinding for a pair of feats; shape soulmeld (thieves gloves) and open least chakra (hands). Obviously you don't want to waste those on yourself but if you trade your familiar for an animal companion (I'd suggest something in an ape) and pick up one of the feats that make it a celestial or fiendish creature you get a literal trap-monkey as a class feature.


OMG I just got a mental image of the monkey signing "trap here, don't walk.":smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I can spend some feats for it, but really, I just want to be able to find traps. And Kobold domain was specifially so I could find and disable traps and not trigger them. Although I'm starting to realize this will be rather tough.

[KorbeltheReader]

I would suggest the rarely considered option: hire a trapfinder and play the mage you want to play rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hold. People get a little glib about the ability of wizards to play any role at any level.

It sounds like most of the other options are going to involve you blowing all your cash and/or spending a month in this dungeon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would suggest the rarely considered option: hire a trapfinder and play the mage you want to play rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hold. People get a little glib about the ability of wizards to play any role at any level.

It sounds like most of the other options are going to involve you blowing all your cash and/or spending a month in this dungeon.

Ya know, this is a pretty solid tack to take. I'll second it. Hireling prices are in the arms and equipment guide though you should probably expect to pay out a percentage of any treasure found during the adventure as well. 10~ish percent sounds about right.

[ericgrau]

In the SRD


Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.


They change your initiative during combat but that does not necessarily preclude their use outside of combat.

With similar reasoning you could say the entire section is called Actions in Combat, and therefore they can only be done in combat. Including casting a spell or opening a door...

Every group I've ever played with has readied actions outside of combat all the time. And it makes no sense to disallow it, even if it were a silly RAW-only quirk. But it isn't even RAW.


Ya know, this is a pretty solid tack to take. I'll second it. Hireling prices are in the arms and equipment guide though you should probably expect to pay out a percentage of any treasure found during the adventure as well. 10~ish percent sounds about right.
This is a good idea, but yes do be sure to pay fairly for going anywhere near a dungeon. And on top of that mind their pitiful hp total from being behind in levels, using d6s and lower ability scores including con. Not only should they not be told to open anything or go somewhere first, they should refuse to. Even after taking a 20 on search (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html). I give one about a 98% chance of eventual death if they do and that's not worth any amount of treasure unless it includes a raise dead and several thousand gp for the level loss. It may be good to combine a sacrificial body with this tactic, or at least the party tank. Search, send in the guinea pig, search, repeat. He should also have a way to get away before or during combat. Preferably hanging back or hiding before the fight even begins, or withdrawing after it begins. If not also a potion of expeditious retreat, or even invisibility at higher levels.

At the same time remember PCs make a small fortune on every fight. Beyond what most people dream of. NPC cohorts typically demand a half share of treasure and they're within 2 levels of the PCs. I think cutting it in half again for every 2 levels is a good ballpark figure. Maybe less since he doesn't contribute to combat, but at 4 levels behind he could not contribute to combat anyway and his pay should not be further reduced.

[Urpriest]

Are you going somewhere trap-heavy? Off the top of my head the only places in an LotR-like 'verse that would have a lot of traps would be some of those ancient tombs, and even then it's unlikely. LotR doesn't have any Egyptian-like cultures that had a thing for heavily trapped tombs, and most of the more organized military folks don't have the casters to pull off traps that can discriminate between friend and foe. I don't think the genre is trap-filled enough for you to dedicate long-term resources to trapfinding.

[Jack_Simth]

Continue to the rest of the sentence.A trap on the door? Still not seeing a problem here. Unseen Servants can open most doors (not that a horse can open any), Knock has a decent range for the rest, and the party meatshield can open the wall instead if needed.

I'm not seeing a single problem involved that can't be easily handed that would not also be an issue if you were using a standard rogue. Can you get more explicit on the actual concern?

The mount is trained so you can expect it to reasonably do anything a pet could and it specifically knows how to come, heel and stay. I imagine you can get him to move forward with your hand to try to get him to run down a hallway then call him back. Or use ventriloquism to get him to come to certain spots, though that's only 1 min/level. Especially if you step behind him out of sight then ventriloquism as if you're now around a corner or muffled behind a door (fake the muffling). A 750 gp wand might be handy. Or get multiple mounts so that they fill the hallways and what not and run around everywhere.Now you're noticeable increasing the expense involved. Mount and Ventriliquism, and you don't have a solution for doors, chests, or really anything other than floor traps.
Easier than summon monster I anyway. That also requires communication to do anything other than attack, which is something people tend to miss.Celestial/Fiendish critters have an Int of 3, but no specified language, so they default to common per the Intelligence section of the Abilities section of reading monster entries (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#abilities). People forget, yes, but it really doesn't matter and they're playing it straight up anyway, for the most part.
At least the horse is riding trained and can understand 3 commands too.

Come to think of it, horses don't often look backwards. Have your unseen servant ride him across traps. And that way you get a door opener and wall checker too. Maybe have your servant hold up a human-like outfit and mask for the visuals.
So... now you're going through two charges per trap, rather than one and a really cheap mundane item. How is the horse helping?

[ericgrau]

Or etc. Floor trigger traps are not only not a good majority, they are a small minority. There are creature detection triggers, visual triggers, ceiling traps. Maybe proximity triggers depending on how fast the movement needs to be to trigger them. Floor traps with a 150 lb. trigger. Time constraints are very very common too, and a search check is more likely to reveal a more relevant location to hurry to. Traps on a lock. Pit traps of course with varying weight triggers, gems that must be pried free with force. Many many traps go off on a full room or shoot through the whole hallway and an unseen servant disappears if it strays more than 30-40 feet from a low level caster.

For that matter most pit traps will consume your 100 lb. bag of rocks, and they will be difficult to remove, especially with time constraints. So I hope you filled a large part of your 5,000 gp bag of holding with rocks.

A long range sacrificial and replaceable creature overcomes more of these, though not all. 15-30 gp a pop is well worth it. A party tank and rogue makes a better combination. Sacrificial creatures + rogue could be even better. Etc. You gotta prep for multiple types of traps. Talking about corner cases is pretty meaningless.

[Jack_Simth]

Or etc. Floor trigger traps are not only not a good majority, they are a small minority. There are creature detection triggers, visual triggers, ceiling traps. Maybe proximity triggers depending on how fast the movement needs to be to trigger them. The vast majority of which will be magical in nature, and findable via Magic Sensitive.

Floor traps with a 150 lb. trigger.
OP's playing a gnome. But OK, might need to get two Unseen Servants running around to get the heavier triggers.

Time constraints are very very common too, and a search check is more likely to reveal a more relevant location to hurry to.Yes, but your earlier proposed solution of a horse/pony from the Mount spell doesn't help with that either, now does it?
Traps on a lock.Irrelevant, as you can open the stuck/locked door from a considerable distance.
Pit traps of course with varying weight triggers, gems that must be pried free with force. At this level, though, you're not looking at 'standard loot', you're looking at schmuck bait. Summon Monster I works OK for checking these, especially as it'll be relatively uncommon.

Many many traps go off on a full room or shoot through the whole hallway and an unseen servant disappears if it strays more than 30-40 feet from a low level caster.
And your earlier proposed Mount solution can't be readily controlled from that distance anyway. So?



For that matter most pit traps will consume your 100 lb. bag of rocks, and they will be difficult to remove, especially with time constraints. So I hope you filled a large part of your bag of holding with rocks.
Why carry replacement rocks? Miner's pick and spare (empty) mundane sacks. You get more rocks from the dungeon walls when you need them (and sand and dirt are just fine if you're outside). I covered that, post number 4 in this thread.



A long range sacrificial and replaceable creature overcomes more of these, though not all. 15-30 gp a pop is well worth it. A party tank and rogue makes a better combination. Sacrificial creatures + rogue could be even better. Etc. You gotta prep for multiple types of traps, not just one.
You just changed the goalposts. You started at:

Mount makes a great longer lasting summoned creature. Also funnier to sacrifice terrified horses that were never trained for battle or danger. And counts as a living breathing creature. Lot of hp too. If only you could get it to look like a person and open doors somehow you'd be set.

Congrats - you just gave up your starting position.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Magebred Warbeast War-Trained Riding Dog, take Ancestral Relic and make it a Masterwork x3, Wand Chamber x3, Elvencraft Composite Longbow (or just a Masterwork, double Wand Chamber, Quarterstaff), and get a few Incense of Consecration in your starting gear.

1. Have your dog Nodwick the first trap you find. Now you know there's a trap here.
2. Use your Incense of Consecration and meditate for eight hours per day for one day per 1,000 gp of the trap's value to automatically destroy it and add its full market price into your relic.
3. Your DM stops using traps.