PDA

View Full Version : Freedom of Movement vs. Dimensional Lock



Nowhere Girl
2007-03-24, 04:12 PM
Freedom of Movement "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally ... even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement ..."

Dimensional Lock "completely blocks extradimensional travel."

So. Is extradimensional travel of any kind ever a form of "movement" for these purposes? Certainly, in the strictest sense of the word, it definitely is movement, but I could easily see an argument that it's not the right kind of movement. I don't know whether there's ever been an official ruling on this, but I'm curious about what others think about it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-24, 04:25 PM
Travel is not movement.

Movement is basically anything you use your speed for.

Jimp
2007-03-24, 05:07 PM
Travel is not movement.

Movement is basically anything you use your speed for.

As an add on to Lord Silvanos' post:
You could travel without moving from one place to another. Example: Plane Shift.

martyboy74
2007-03-24, 05:10 PM
What about teleportation?

Jimp
2007-03-24, 05:19 PM
What about teleportation?
It depends on the DM I suppose. As far as I can see teleportation spells are *pop* and you're there spells so I wouldn't allot Freedom of Movement to help.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-24, 05:26 PM
What about teleportation?

You do not have to move any distance to use Teleport or similar effects, so Freedom of Movement is irrelevant.

Aquillion
2007-03-25, 03:40 AM
Freedom of Movement "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally ... even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement ..."

Dimensional Lock "completely blocks extradimensional travel."

So. Is extradimensional travel of any kind ever a form of "movement" for these purposes?By this argument, Freedom of Movement would allow you to walk through a Wall of Stone, since Freedom of Movement lets you ignore magic that impedes movement, and Wall of Stone is undeniably a spell that impedes movement.

...come to think of it, a huge summoned monster impedes movement, too. Also, being under the effect of a Finger of Death would certainly impede your movement, which means that under the right circumstances Freedom of Movement would allow you to move and attack while dead.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-25, 06:11 AM
By this argument, Freedom of Movement would allow you to walk through a Wall of Stone, since Freedom of Movement lets you ignore magic that impedes movement, and Wall of Stone is undeniably a spell that impedes movement.

...come to think of it, a huge summoned monster impedes movement, too. Also, being under the effect of a Finger of Death would certainly impede your movement, which means that under the right circumstances Freedom of Movement would allow you to move and attack while dead.

You do realize that Wall of Stone is a conjuration spell with an instantaneous duration, right? Therefore no magic impedes movement, it just summons the mundane stone wall that does.

Likewise for summoned monsters.

I won't comment on the Finger of Death quip.

bosssmiley
2007-03-25, 05:58 PM
Freedom of Movement "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally ... even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement ..."

Dimensional Lock "completely blocks extradimensional travel."

So. Is extradimensional travel of any kind ever a form of "movement" for these purposes?

For the purposes of these spells and only in that context? No, it isn't.
Freedom of movement renders you immune to constraints on physical movement (grease, web, solid fog, grapples and the like) it doesn't give you a 'dimensional lock doesn't apply to me' card by anything other than the most addle-pated interpretation. It's all there in the PHB.

Aquillion
2007-03-25, 08:15 PM
You do realize that Wall of Stone is a conjuration spell with an instantaneous duration, right? Therefore no magic impedes movement, it just summons the mundane stone wall that does.

Likewise for summoned monsters.

I won't comment on the Finger of Death quip.Well, I wasn't serious there, but...

What about Wall of Force? Resilient Sphere? Imprisonment? Repulsion? Forcecage?

Clementx
2007-03-25, 08:23 PM
There is a big difference between, "impedes movement" and "Its a wall, dingbat, you can't walk through it!" If you could move in a hampered way because of an effect, chances are FoM works to make it easier somehow.

greenknight
2007-03-25, 08:29 PM
On a related note, how would Freedom of Movement interact with Hideous Laughter or Irresistable Dance?

Collin152
2007-03-25, 08:51 PM
You do realize that Wall of Stone is a conjuration spell with an instantaneous duration, right? Therefore no magic impedes movement, it just summons the mundane stone wall that does.

Likewise for summoned monsters.

I won't comment on the Finger of Death quip.
No, sumoned monsters clearly have a duration.
And yes, wall of stone is instantaneous, but wall of force is not. Could one walk through a wall of force with this spell active?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-26, 03:52 AM
On a related note, how would Freedom of Movement interact with Hideous Laughter or Irresistable Dance?

It does not interact with either of those since they do not impede movement.
They make you laugh and dance, the influence it has on your movement is secondary.
However, if you were entangled FoM would make your dancing less hampered :smallamused:


Could one walk through a wall of force with this spell active?

No, A Wall of Force does not impede movement for the purpose of this spell. It does not affect your movement at all. It affects where you can go, but that is entirely different.

Aquillion
2007-03-26, 04:32 AM
What about Imprisonment, though? It certainly impedes movement (completely, just like paralysis.) As written, why wouldn't Freedom of Movement protect against Imprisonment or Temporal Stasis?

...in fact, Freedom specifically lists those two spells as examples of "spells that restrict movement", the only criteria necessary for Freedom of Movement to guard against them. And it includes Binding and Maze as spells that restrict movement, too, both of which are thematically quite similar to Forcecage (especially binding in many of its variations.) So it seems quite reasonable to argue that Freedom of Movement guards against Forcecage as well.

Yes, yes, I know Freedom is five levels higher, but Freedom of Movement explictly makes no mention of how powerful a spell it can guard against. That would be an excellent reason to houserule that it doesn't protect against the full list of things that Freedom removes, but since they use the exact same wording, it would seem that per RAW Freedom of Movement blocks any spell that Freedom can remove.

Indon
2007-03-26, 05:01 AM
Well, thing is, you can still move at your full speed in a forcecage; it's 10x10, if I recall.

Now, what about magical petrification? Flesh to Stone is definitely a movement-hindering effect.

Edit: Ha, silly me, this is already brought up in that it's listed as an effect Freedom removes.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-26, 07:26 AM
What about Imprisonment, though? It certainly impedes movement (completely, just like paralysis.) As written, why wouldn't Freedom of Movement protect against Imprisonment or Temporal Stasis?


Because these spells are not movement impeding effects just like death is not a movement impeding effect.

The spell description is rather clear on this. Freedom of Movement wards against effects that impede your movement.
Being imprisoned deep underneath the earth or dying does not paralyze, bind, entangle or slow you in any way, at least not directly.

the_tick_rules
2007-03-26, 03:36 PM
being dead would also hinder your movement so freedom of movement characters are immortal!!!

Collin152
2007-03-26, 05:40 PM
Because these spells are not movement impeding effects just like death is not a movement impeding effect.

The spell description is rather clear on this. Freedom of Movement wards against effects that impede your movement.
Being imprisoned deep underneath the earth or dying does not paralyze, bind, entangle or slow you in any way, at least not directly.
You know, I'd say being imprisoned benath the earth would bind you, and dying would slow you, as if you remain concious, you can only take one move action rather then a maximum of two.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-26, 06:09 PM
... entombed in a state of suspended animation...

Suspended animation... No that does not seem to be a paralysis effect or something I can escape with a grapple check.


...You can only take a single move or standard action each turn...

What is that you say? I can move my full speed even when disabled? It is only my actions that are restricted. I see.



Yes, death does impede your "movement" somewhat, at least on the material plane, but it is NOT a movement impeding effect as defined by the Freedom of movement spell or Movement generally in D&D under any reasonable interpretation.

Or put in slightly different terms, what does it help to be able to move freely if you cannot take any actions?


...impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

JoeFredBob
2007-03-26, 06:11 PM
No, I think Aquillion has a good point. The description of Freedom states, "The subject is freed from spells and effects that restrict its movement, including binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm), entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm), grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#grappling), imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm), maze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/maze.htm), paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis), petrification, pinning, sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm), slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm), stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned), temporal stasis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm), and web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm)." Hence, all those spells and effect mentioned are spells or effects that restrict the creature's movement.

The description of Freedom of Movement states "This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis), solid fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm), slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm), and web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm)." Thus, it allows to to move and attack normally at least while affected by the union of the spells and effects mentioned by Freedom of Movement and the spells and effect mentioned by Freedom.

Now, I don't think this lets you automatically ignore all their effects. For example, if you're imprisoned and have freedom of movement on you, you'll be able to move and attack just fine. But you'll be in a small sphere underneath the earth. You'd better get rid of that freedom of movement right quick if you don't want to suffocate. However, it would let you ignore Maze (if it only let you wander arround in the maze normally, than Maze wouldn't even be a spell that restricts your movement), and it would let you ignore sleep magic and petrification...although I think you could make a case for you being blind if you're petrified (you're still made of stone, you can just move normally!).

Of course, I would try to make much...saner rulings as a DM.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-03-26, 06:31 PM
Quite wrong.



This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.


So, if YOU are not under the influence of magic that impedes movement, freedom of movement won't help you beyond giving you auto-success in escape artist checks, grapple checks and free moving in water.


Instantaneous effects that "restrict movement" such as finger of death, flesh to stone and Imprisonment are unaffected. You are no longer under the effect of magic that restricts movement for freedom of movement to help you.

Non-magical effects that restrict movement that can't be overcome with grapple or escape artist are unaffected. Those include walls.

Effects that don't restrict movement but bar your passage with an obstacle instead (wall of force, repulsion, antilife shell) are unaffected.

Effects that prevent you from moving but don't restrict your movement-such as a compulsion that makes you not wanting to move, a polymorph spell that turns you into a eing without legs, a barbarian chopping off your legs and so on are unaffected.

Special cases that are unaffected must be reviewed one by one. For example Maze does not restrict movement-it creates an extraplanar maze in which you can move normally. Temporal Stasis does not restrict your movement-it makes time stop flowing for you. Binding doesn't restrict your movement directly-it is a mind affecting spell and it also creates barriers or alters your form.

Indon
2007-03-26, 06:47 PM
It seems to me that the key term between Freedom and Freedom of Movement is that Freedom cures nonmagical effects in addition to spells. So, spells with instant durations wouldn't be warded, such as petrification magic and Maze (which just teleports you to a place where you're impeded).

Now, Freedom still specifies a couple of non-instant spells that Freedom of Movement doesn't; Sleep, for instance, and perhaps Temporal Stasis.

I'd say by this point, it becomes a DM call. I'd allow Freedom of Movement to counter such spells up to the same level as Freedom of Movement (being 4). So if one of my players brought it up, I'd probably let it ward against Sleep.

JoeFredBob
2007-03-26, 06:56 PM
First of all, good point that instantaneous magic won't be affected, I hadn't noticed that.




So, if YOU are not under the influence of magic that impedes movement, freedom of movement won't help you beyond giving you auto-success in escape artist checks, grapple checks and free moving in water.
...

Effects that don't restrict movement but bar your passage with an obstacle instead (wall of force, repulsion, antilife shell) are unaffected.


I would disagree with that generalization. Note that Freedom of Movement explicitly states that it prevents Solid Fog and Web from affecting you. Both of these are effects that wouldn't really qualify as things that YOU are under the influence of, any more than a field full of lots of walls of stone would. I would also say they bar passage with obstacles, but that is more open to interpretation, because I'm basically thinking about what they are on a small scale, and we all know that kind of logic is irrelevant in D&D.




Effects that prevent you from moving but don't restrict your movement-...


Mincing words that much is equally irrelevant in D&D, unless they are explicitly defined (such as Large and Huge), which "prevent you from moving" and "restrict your movement" are not.



Special cases that are unaffected must be reviewed one by one. For example Maze does not restrict movement-it creates an extraplanar maze in which you can move normally. Temporal Stasis does not restrict your movement-it makes time stop flowing for you. Binding doesn't restrict your movement directly-it is a mind affecting spell and it also creates barriers or alters your form.


Review the description of Freedom. Maze and Temporal Stasis *explicitly* count as restricting movement.

Jasdoif
2007-03-26, 06:59 PM
The main point here is that Freedom of Movement, as it says, lets you "move and attack normally for the duration of the spell".

Freedom of Movement will not let you walk through a wall of force, unless you could normally walk through a wall of force. Freedom of Movement will not let you walk around while you're dead, unless you could normally walk around while you're dead. Freedom of Movement will not let you escape from the effects of an imprisonment spell, unless you could normally escape while "entombed in a state of suspended animation....far beneath the surface of the earth".

You can't use Freedom of Movement to get around those effects simply by virtue of the spell, because you could not normally do so.

JoeFredBob
2007-03-26, 07:29 PM
Actually, that's not quite true. I can't normally move while held either (just like i can't normally move while dead), but freedom of movement DOES help against hold person. What freedom of movement does is it allows you to ignore the movement-impeding effects of some spells. Those spells are the ones that you are currently under the influence of. That is why, as Belial pointed out, it can't protect against instantaneous durations spells. You are no longer under the influence of them once they go off. (As a side note, Maze does not have an instantaneous duration, it has a duration of "see text", which, when you read the text, translates to "10 minutes or until escaped".)

Also, note that I think, per RAW, freedom of movement would not let you escape from the physical aspect of Imprisonment. I'm torn as to the temporal stasis aspect, because the duration of Imprisonment is instant, but it literally says "see Temporal Stasis" which has a duration of permanent. Best case it would let you move and attack normally within the space you're in because of the imprisonment spell. Of course, this would also let you cast stuff like Greater Teleport and Plane Shift, unless we want to say you can't cast spells if you've avoided a Hold Person via Freedom of Movement.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-27, 04:25 AM
Temporal Stasis:
Again, suspended animation does not allow you to take any actions so Freedom of Movement does absolutely no good.

Maze:
You are banished to a "extradimensional labyrinth of force planes". Your movement is not impeded in any way. Even if it was all you could do was to move around inside the labyrinth freely.
You are restricted to your new plane for the duration, so, as the spell descriptions says, Freedom will set you free.

Petrification:
Being a mindless and inert statue does not allow you to take any actions. Freedom of Movement would possibly allow the statue to fall freely through a Solid Fog though.

Sleep:
You are restricted from taking any actions.

Paralysis:
Again you are restricted from acting, but unlike other effects that forces you into condition where you cannot take actions, Paralysis is explicitly mention as an immobilizing effect and Freedom of Movement can protect you.


The spell description obviously is not crystal clear or we would not be discussing it here. However a careful reading of the text suggests that for the spell to be of any help the magic influence has to impede movement.


...under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement...

It seems reasonable to require that the effect has to target your movement directly, as I have tried to explain above.

Interpreting it to mean that you are protected against anything that influences your movement, no matter how unrelated to movement it is, does not seem reasonable at all.

Taking it to the extreme it even becomes ridiculous.

Non-Undead dead corpses do not move around around and neither does non-construct mindless statues.