non-Blade Pact Warlock 20?

[odigity]

Friend of mine is thinking of going pure Warlock, but taking Book instead of Blade, which seems uncommon round these parts.

Obviously, there's always Eldritch Blast, but that can get boring. Aside from that, do ya'll think Book Warlock 20 can contribute enough in-combat to justify staying the course, with only 2 spell slots/SR until level 11, and no melee optimization?

[Shadow]

In combat you have those two slots, three extra cantrips and eldritch blast. 'Nuff said. That's plenty for combat.
Out of combat you have every single ritual in the book that you can get your hands on.

[Yorrin]

Obviously, there's always Eldritch Blast, but that can get boring.

Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I just don't understand when people complain about something being "boring." I see this with the Champion Fighter too, where for some reason people don't like doing the best possible option every round and need some kind of "variety." I'd rather have one really good tool that I know works in pretty much every situation than a bunch of mediocre tools that I have to pick between every round.

/rant

EB is a really good blasting power- use it whenever you can. Tome pact gives you access to ritual magic and your choice of cantrips, which provides a lot of build flexibility should you need it. Early on it was considered the best pact, and still might be the strongest despite the fact that it's never talked about.

[Daishain]

So long as he gets the short rests he needs to stay charged, he will likely to be the party's strongest ranged damage dealer. With the right invocation, he also gets free (if limited in function) battlefield control.

As for the choice in pact, that book will (with invocation upgrade) make him the best possible ritual caster out there, even beating the wizard in that category, which will add a lot of out of combat versatility for him. It also allows him to pick up a familiar, one of the best caster class features around, if not quite as useful as it would have been with pact of chain. He'll do just fine. If you're worried about optimization, there are a couple guides around here for warlocks that he can take a look at. A few are behind the link in my signature.

Honestly, I don't think blade pact offers much for a straight up warlock. It works very well for high level melee multiclass builds, but a pure warlock is a poor melee combatant.

[odigity]

Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I just don't understand when people complain about something being "boring." I see this with the Champion Fighter too, where for some reason people don't like doing the best possible option every round and need some kind of "variety."

You don't understand why people value variety? That's... bizarre.

On the plus side, should the robots every take over and enslave everyone in a matrix, you'll do fine with the cuisine aboard the Nebuchadnezzar. After all, a protein paste is always the best option, mechanically.

[Shadow]

Honestly, I don't think blade pact offers much for a straight up warlock. It works very well for high level melee multiclass builds, but a pure warlock is a poor melee combatant.

I absolutely disagree with this.
Let's say your weapon deals 1d8, to go with something average, and that you have 18/18 melee stat/Cha at level 12 (possibly more, but we'll go with that).
1d8 weapon + 1d6 hex + 4 stat + 4 cha = 16 *2 extra attack = 32 damage per round on average.
34 once your stats get maxed.
40 once you have a +3 weapon.
That's nothing to scoff at by any means when you consider you are also a full caster.
As a matter of fact, it's right there with the EB damage that everyone raves so much about (4d10+20=42, 56 with hex).
Toss Crossbow Expert on there for another 15 (1d6 [3.5] weapon + 1d6 [3.5] hex + 5 stat + 3 magic) and you have the bladelock at 55, which is still competetive with EB including hex. Even without XbX, simply TWF with zero support, and you're at 48 (lost one extra from each of the two main attacks from a d6 instead of a d8 pact blade), which again, is still competetive with EB/hex.

Bladelocks are just fine. If they were much better in melee then they'd be OP. Some people already consider Warlock to be the strongest class in the PHB, and with good reason.
Both Blade and Tome are awesome.
I'm not a huge fan of Chain, myself.

[Ashrym]

Ditto on not chain pact. Blade and tome are both good and I prefer tome, personally.

Bonus cantrips from any list and book of
ancient secrets adds variety. I also use invocations for additional at-will abilities, and with the stated 2 short rest assumption in the DM guidelines high level warlocks have 12 fifth level slots plus 4 arcanum plus invocations plus more at-wills and more open-ended cantrips / rituals than other casters plus boons plus the capstone for 4 more 5th level slots. They also know more spells than sorcerers. That's what tome warlocks look like.

That's 20 spells per day of fifth level plus compared to 9 for other level 20 casters before all the other benefits. When I playtested it I had arcane eye, alter self, and levitate at-will. I also included guidance cantrip.

One short rest and warlocks get by; two short rests (as per DM guidelines) and they look good; three or more and they seem OP compared to other casters because everything is in a fifth level slot.

[Dalebert]

OP refers to me. I'm also thinking of going The Great Old One for patron and I'm planning to take Book of Ancient Secrets at 3rd level.

[Daishain]

OP refers to me. I'm also thinking of going The Great Old One for patron and I'm planning to take Book of Ancient Secrets at 3rd level.
Well, as you should see above, most of us think its a good option. Did you need/want advice on setting it up?

[Dalebert]

I guess I was expecting people to dis my patron choice. Knowing how I think, I'm probably going to go with what I think is most fun anyway even if it's not the most optimized but I am receptive to suggestions if something I'm planning seems particularly not useful. I really like the Telepathy at 1st level which seems incredibly useful and eventually the thrall ability. Here are some early plans. I haven't built all the way out to 20. I'll play it by ear.

I'm coming in at 2nd level.

Cantrips: EB (duh), Minor Illusion. Then at 3rd: Mage Hand, Guidance, Friends, eventually Prestidigitation I guess.

1st level: Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Charm Person

All the rituals everywhere and forever (duh)

Invocations: Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions switching the latter out for my book at 3rd. On the wish list for future invocations: Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Repelling Blast, maybe eventually get Misty Visions back.

[Kaeso]

Call me ignorant, but the Book pact is the only pact I do not like. The Blade pact gives you an awesome weapon that turns you into a pretty decent gish. The chain pact gives you a familliar. The book pact only gives you three cantrips from any class list. Three cantrips, seriously? Unless I'm overlooking something, this is extremely inferior to getting either a familliar or a weapon of your choice that gets your Cha modifier as bonus damage as well as two attacks (three if you take polearm mastery).

[Shadow]

Call me ignorant, but the Book pact is the only pact I do not like. The Blade pact gives you an awesome weapon that turns you into a pretty decent gish. The chain pact gives you a familliar. The book pact only gives you three cantrips from any class list. Three cantrips, seriously? Unless I'm overlooking something, this is extremely inferior to getting either a familliar or a weapon of your choice that gets your Cha modifier as bonus damage as well as two attacks (three if you take polearm mastery).

Three cantrips to start.
Every single ritual from every single list as soon as you get the invocation for it, assuming you can find the spells to add to your book.
Look through the spells available as rituals and you'll see why Tome is amazing.

[Daishain]

I guess I was expecting people to dis my patron choice. Knowing how I think, I'm probably going to go with what I think is most fun anyway even if it's not the most optimized but I am receptive to suggestions if something I'm planning seems particularly not useful. I really like the Telepathy at 1st level which seems incredibly useful and eventually the thrall ability. Here are some early plans. I haven't built all the way out to 20. I'll play it by ear.

I'm coming in at 2nd level.

Cantrips: EB (duh), Minor Illusion. Then at 3rd: Mage Hand, Guidance, Friends, eventually Prestidigitation I guess.

1st level: Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Charm Person

All the rituals everywhere and forever (duh)

Invocations: Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions switching the latter out for my book at 3rd. On the wish list for future invocations: Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Repelling Blast, maybe eventually get Misty Visions back.

Misty Visions and Minor Illusion mostly overlap, there's no real need to have both. Personally, I would either swap the former out for agonizing blast or the latter out for mage hand/prestidigitation

[Kaeso]

Three cantrips to start.
Every single ritual from every single list as soon as you get the invocation for it, assuming you can find the spells to add to your book.
Look through the spells available as rituals and you'll see why Tome is amazing.

Ah, that makes me wish the spell lists were more convenient :smallwink: 5th edition SRD when?
That said, I imagine most of those spells are utility spells, considering they take 10 minutes to cast as a ritual. I know for a fact that Alarm is one, for example.

[Shadow]

Ah, that makes me wish the spell lists were more convenient :smallwink: 5th edition SRD when?
That said, I imagine most of those spells are utility spells, considering they take 10 minutes to cast as a ritual. I know for a fact that Alarm is one, for example.

Alarm
Animal Messenger
Augury
Beast SEnse
Commune
Commune with nature
comprehend langauges
contact other plane
detect magic
detect poison and disease
divintation
drawmij instant summons
feign death
find familiar
forbiddance
gentele repose
Identify
illusory script
leomunds tiny hut
locate animal or plant
magic mouth
meld into stone
phantom steed
purify food and drink
rary's telepathic bond
silence
speak with animals
tensers floating disk
unseen servant
water walk

Thank CyberThread for doing the leg work. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365822-Alphabetical-list-of-ritual-spells)

This list (http://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2exutw/5e_ritual_list/) also has spell levels included.

[Kaeso]

Alarm
Animal Messenger
Augury
Beast SEnse
Commune
Commune with nature
comprehend langauges
contact other plane
detect magic
detect poison and disease
divintation
drawmij instant summons
feign death
find familiar
forbiddance
gentele repose
Identify
illusory script
leomunds tiny hut
locate animal or plant
magic mouth
meld into stone
phantom steed
purify food and drink
rary's telepathic bond
silence
speak with animals
tensers floating disk
unseen servant
water walk

Thank CyberThread for doing the leg work. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365822-Alphabetical-list-of-ritual-spells)

This list (http://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2exutw/5e_ritual_list/) also has spell levels included.

Wow, thanks!
Seeing those spells, a Tome Warlock makes for a pretty good utility caster. Give him 40 minutes and he can even provde the entire party with the horses they need!

[ghost_warlock]

Ah, that makes me wish the spell lists were more convenient :smallwink: 5th edition SRD when?
That said, I imagine most of those spells are utility spells, considering they take 10 minutes to cast as a ritual. I know for a fact that Alarm is one, for example.

What's wrong with them being utility?

Warlocks already have plenty of powerful combat spells, both offensive and defensive.

Utility magic is what makes a character useful outside of combat. You don't become a top-tier class by only being useful in a fight.

[Dalebert]

Misty Visions and Minor Illusion mostly overlap, there's no real need to have both. Personally, I would either swap the former out for agonizing blast or the latter out for mage hand/prestidigitation

I realize there's some overlap but I was aiming for the one-two combo of Ghost Sound and Silent Image to do something more convincing like have a beast that roars or a knight in plate mail who clanks around and it takes both of them to get there. Minor Illusion handles the ghost sound part but will not make any kind of significant illusion beyond a small, still object just sitting there.


find familiar


This. Obviously it's not as good as Pact of Chain but it gets you partway there right away.

[Shadow]

This. Obviously it's not as good as Pact of Chain but it gets you partway there right away.

That's the reason that I find Chain lacking. Sure, your Chain familiar is slightly better and you have two invocations (one is decent, one is great), but the extra cantrips and utility that Tome offers is far better than a slightly improved familiar and a couple of invocations IMO, so I see Chain basically as redundant.

[LucianoAr]

well i seem to think the blade lock is useless. why bother with being toe to toe with enemies when you can blast from afar AND get more damage with EB?

id say tome is a no brainer, too much utility to let it pass.

i see nothing special in chain pact either.

[Shadow]

well i seem to think the blade lock is useless. why bother with being toe to toe with enemies when you can blast from afar AND get more damage with EB?

Because without Blade you're basically forced into a ranged role. But with Blade you can do both. It's not like Blade pact precludes you from choosing EB, AB & RB, it augments it.
Blade is for a Warlock that wants combat options.
Tome is for a Warlock that wants utility options.
Chain is for a Warlock that wants a more flavorful pet than the one which Tome allows.

[Ashrym]

With feats blade is more damage for quite some time, too. It's not better to EB until 17th level and that sucks when in melee range. With poison as an option for weapons I might revisit the damage at 17th level at this point.

[odigity]

Three cantrips to start.
Every single ritual from every single list as soon as you get the invocation for it, assuming you can find the spells to add to your book.

Why can't you get Book of Ancient Secrets invocation at level 3? The Warlock is allowed to swap one invocation for another at each level.

[Dalebert]

Why can't you get Book of Ancient Secrets invocation at level 3? The Warlock is allowed to swap one invocation for another at each level.

You can. Did he imply otherwise? That's what I'm planning to do.

[Pex]

There is no one best way to play a warlock. A player may have preferences for his particular taste, but that does not forbid a different player preferring different choices. If you want to play a Tome warlock go right ahead. Enjoy it. You do not need the permission nor approval of any player who absolutely loves the Blade warlock.

[MadBear]

I kinda feel that the chain warlock gets a bad rap. One thing to keep in mind with the chain warlock is that many of the familiars you get (imp and sprite come to mind) have invisibility. They can also take the help action on their turn to give an ally advantage, without breaking invisibility. At worse, you give yourself advantage every single turn with next to 0 risk that your familiar is harmed. this gets better when you start using it to make your rogue get his sneak attack, or ensure that the martial hits that hard to hit creature.

And that's in addition to all the other normal things that the familiar will do for you.

[Giant2005]

I kinda feel that the chain warlock gets a bad rap. One thing to keep in mind with the chain warlock is that many of the familiars you get (imp and sprite come to mind) have invisibility. They can also take the help action on their turn to give an ally advantage, without breaking invisibility. At worse, you give yourself advantage every single turn with next to 0 risk that your familiar is harmed. this gets better when you start using it to make your rogue get his sneak attack, or ensure that the martial hits that hard to hit creature.

And that's in addition to all the other normal things that the familiar will do for you.

They also give their master Spell Resistance which is particularly awesome.

[Scirocco]

They also give their master Spell Resistance which is particularly awesome.

The Chain Pact familiars do not do this. If a ref decides to give their players a familiar from the MM using the variant rules, that works, but it's not a fair assumption to expect it with the PHB version (and by that token doesn't have to deal with the familiar deciding to leave their service).

[Shadow]

(and by that token doesn't have to deal with the familiar deciding to leave their service).

Personally, I would still hold to that. I don't see why Warlocks would somehow be exempt from that when no one else is. Pseudodragons and Quasits definitely still have that clause as far as I'm concerned, and I would personally lump Imps and Sprites in there as well for equality's sake.
If you want a special familiar, you better be damned sure that you treat it well (and as it expects to be treated) or he'll leave.

[Giant2005]

Personally, I would still hold to that. I don't see why Warlocks would somehow be exempt from that when no one else is. Pseudodragons and Quasits definitely still have that clause as far as I'm concerned, and I would personally lump Imps and Sprites in there as well for equality's sake.
If you want a special familiar, you better be damned sure that you treat it well (and as it expects to be treated) or he'll leave.

I would treat the Warlock differently by virtue of them getting the familiar via their pact. That familiar was gifted to them by an all-powerful patron - a familiar would have to be insane to ignore that patron's wishes and serve the Warlock in any way that isn't exemplary.

[Shadow]

I would treat the Warlock differently by virtue of them getting the familiar via their pact. That familiar was gifted to them by an all-powerful patron - a familiar would have to be insane to ignore that patron's wishes and serve the Warlock in any way that isn't exemplary.

And that patron would expect you to treat their gift (your word, not mine) with respect. I'd have absolutely no problem letting a familiar leave it if was habitually mistreated (even if it only *thinks* that it's being mistreated). That holds even more true if the familiar was a gft from a powerful patron to which I am sworn.

[MaxWilson]

And that patron would expect you to treat their gift (your word, not mine) with respect. I'd have absolutely no problem letting a familiar leave it if was habitually mistreated (even if it only *thinks* that it's being mistreated). That holds even more true if the familiar was a gft from a powerful patron to which I am sworn.

Eh. Technically, the patron just gives you the ability to modify the Find Familiar spell with additional creature types. If the patron actually gave you an Imp, you wouldn't have the ability to change it into a Quasit or a Sprite on demand.

[Dalebert]

A familiar is a rather key class feature of the chain warlocks that doesn't explicitly list any prerequisite behaviors to retain that feature. DMs can do what they want, obviously, but that interpretation seems like a reach. If at any point a familiar is lost, even by "death", it specifically says they can just cast the spell again to get it right back and it's the same familiar. They don't really ever even die.

I don't really see how it has the option to leave. They all seem bound to serve with devotion. You can send them into pocket dimensions at any time and they don't seem to mind. If you frequently send it into dangerous situations and it takes damage, it just vanishes until you cast the spell again to summon it. Honestly, they don't really seem to have much motivation other than to serve their masters.

[LucianoAr]

Because without Blade you're basically forced into a ranged role. But with Blade you can do both. It's not like Blade pact precludes you from choosing EB, AB & RB, it augments it.
Blade is for a Warlock that wants combat options.
Tome is for a Warlock that wants utility options.
Chain is for a Warlock that wants a more flavorful pet than the one which Tome allows.

just for a serious respectful and "trying to optimize my warlock" discussion:

how is it better? you dont get the +cha bonus to blade attacks till lvl 11ish. so either you get a dex bonus and a d6 weapon or a d12 and you need to get a good str stat (which could totally be dump otherwise).

with eb youre doing consistent d10+cha dmg early on. and theres no drawback to being ranged whatsoever. so you have a melee option, yes, but what would you use that for?

[Regulas]

I absolutely disagree with this.
Let's say your weapon deals 1d8, to go with something average, and that you have 18/18 melee stat/Cha at level 12 (possibly more, but we'll go with that).
1d8 weapon + 1d6 hex + 4 stat + 4 cha = 16 *2 extra attack = 32 damage per round on average.
34 once your stats get maxed.
40 once you have a +3 weapon.
That's nothing to scoff at by any means when you consider you are also a full caster.
As a matter of fact, it's right there with the EB damage that everyone raves so much about (4d10+20=42, 56 with hex).
Toss Crossbow Expert on there for another 15 (1d6 [3.5] weapon + 1d6 [3.5] hex + 5 stat + 3 magic) and you have the bladelock at 55, which is still competetive with EB including hex. Even without XbX, simply TWF with zero support, and you're at 48 (lost one extra from each of the two main attacks from a d6 instead of a d8 pact blade), which again, is still competetive with EB/hex.

Bladelocks are just fine. If they were much better in melee then they'd be OP. Some people already consider Warlock to be the strongest class in the PHB, and with good reason.
Both Blade and Tome are awesome.
I'm not a huge fan of Chain, myself.

40 is over 25% less damage then 56, 48 is 10% less.

So basically you need a feat (Crossbow feat because apparently it wasn't obvious what I was referring to), one additional invocation more then normal (a high level one to boot), your bonus action every round and 2 +3 magic weapons in order to get the same damage that a regular warlock gets.

Not to mention the range factor, or the damage types etc.

[Shadow]

how is it better?

It doesn't have to be better. It has to be good enough, and it is. It isn't always about the optimal choice. Sometimes it's about the choice that you want to make for your character. If you make that choice, it works.


40 is over 25% less damage then 56, 48 is 10% less.

I like how you conveniently compared the bladelock without hex to the EB with hex, and then again convenienetly compared EB/hex with the lesser of the two options with hex in order to get your percentages.

Once again I will say that it isn't always about the optimal choice. Those numbers aren't bad. Don't try to claim that they are.
Once again I will say that nothing about taking the pact of the blade precludes you from also taking EB with AB, so don't ignore the fact that it's still an option. Only now you also have a viable melee option, whereas other warlocks do not.

[Regulas]

It doesn't have to be better. It has to be good enough, and it is. It isn't always about the optimal choice. Sometimes it's about the choice that you want to make for your character. If you make that choice, it works.



I like how you conveniently compared the bladelock without hex to the EB with hex, and then again convenienetly compared EB/hex with the lesser of the two options with hex in order to get your percentages.

Once again I will say that it isn't always about the optimal choice. Those numbers aren't bad. Don't try to claim that they are.
Once again I will say that nothing about taking the pact of the blade precludes you from also taking EB with AB, so don't ignore the fact that it's still an option. Only now you also have a viable melee option, whereas other warlocks do not.

....

40 is the BL with hex... 48 is the bl with hex and dual wielding.... the only time that BL gets same damage is when you use the crossbow... which is what I was referencing when stating everything you need to deal equal damage....

[Shadow]

Haven't had my coffee yet.

A level 20 straight rogue with a +3 rapier and a 20 Dex deals 47.5 damage per round.
If you try to pretend that 40 on a full caster in melee is some horrible, horrible number that will make him useless you may just convince people that you're a powergaming munchkin, and we definitely wouldn't want that.

[Regulas]

Haven't had my coffee yet.

A level 20 straight rogue with a +3 rapier and a 20 Dex deals 47.5 damage per round.
If you try to pretend that 40 on a full caster in melee is some horrible, horrible number that will make him useless you may just convince people that you're a powergaming munchkin, and we definitely wouldn't want that.

Certainly not, I never said it wasn't playable and I understand the appeal of the demonic warrior type character, my point is mostly though that it's a large amount of effort/handi-cap essentially for style points. Which is perfectly valid given the goal of D&D anyway.

[Dalebert]

I will admit that I was very much attracted to the style of it--being able to summon any weapon you want and deal decent dmg with it, even though I ultimately chose the tome (which I'm going to call a grimoire just for style reasons. Much more appropriate for a warlock IMHO.)

[Ashrym]

Blade is just a different ability mod to damage and then also adds CHA on to of that and also applies feats like great weapon master and can be a magical weapon bound to the blade pact warlock. It takes more investment but is more than competitive throughout most of the game.

Weapons also cover the inherent weakness spells have against counterspelling, globe of invulnerability, or antimagic.

[MaxWilson]

Weapons also cover the inherent weakness spells have against counterspelling, globe of invulnerability, or antimagic.

Not to mention Rakshasas and some other creatures (Tiamat) occasionally being immune to spells under 7th level.

[Ashrym]

Not to mention Rakshasas and some other creatures (Tiamat) occasionally being immune to spells under 7th level.

I imagine a rakshasa might be surprised by a dwarven warlock armored up and swinging a halberd using great weapon master and pole arm master for 3 big attacks.

[Keryath]

And that patron would expect you to treat their gift (your word, not mine) with respect. I'd have absolutely no problem letting a familiar leave it if was habitually mistreated (even if it only *thinks* that it's being mistreated). That holds even more true if the familiar was a gft from a powerful patron to which I am sworn.

The big difference between a chain warlock familiar and a normal caster is that a warlock familiar isn't actually whatever it looks like. It's an entity that manifests in the form of an imp or sprite or whatever, and has some of the abilities but not all. It's more of an extension of the pact than anything else. I would expect that the loss of the familiar would only occur with a breaking of the pact, along with a lot of other horrible things.

Chain warlocks are far from weak - Meathead (my imp) makes it incredibly hard for the DM to bring surprises around.