Wild Shape into tiny insect = ultimate scout?

[odigity]

Last session, our level 2 party was able to assault a stronghold of Hobgoblins with little damage because we took the time to scout the entire place, then make careful plans for each stage of the assault, room by room.

The way we did that was have our level 2 Druid (Moon) turn into a tiny spider, crawl under the door, and go wandering about the entire complex to see all the rooms, guard positions, and moving patrols. Wild Shape says "a beast that you have seen before". Since there's no creature type specific to insects, we concluded that a mundane insect falls under the category of beast, and therefore it was perfectly legal by RAW, maybe even by RAI.

But it's such a huge advantage at such low level that I just had to post here to confirm. Afterall, we now have an easy/safe way to scout the interior of any structure with a hole somewhere in it's exterior large enough for a tiny spider, which just about anything outside of maybe a modern clean labratory.

Are we cheating/abusing the feature, or are we just being rational?

[GiantOctopodes]

keep in mind you take on the HP of the creature, so the first time someone decides to stomp on you, eat you, or what have you, and inflicts a relatively minor amount of damage which results in you reverting form right in the middle of the enemy base, you might not think it is quite as ultimate.

Also, some people count insects as different from beasts, though I personally do not, any more than I count fish or birds as different despite belonging to different classifications of animals than mammals. Is it without risk? Nope, and I hope that if the hole is large enough for you to go in, your DM is not having it be sterile and free of hostile critters of that size other than yourself (it's a dangerous world for spiders). Is it very good and effective? Oh yeah.

[odigity]

keep in mind you take on the HP of the creature, so the first time someone decides to stomp on you, eat you, or what have you, and inflicts a relatively minor amount of damage which results in you reverting form right in the middle of the enemy base, you might not think it is quite as ultimate.

I know, but you'd still have your health, your abilities, and a second wild shape. There are ways to get out of that situation when it arises, which should be rare. Not that many people notice or care about a tiny spider crawling along the ceiling of a castle or dimly lit dungeon.

[GiantOctopodes]

I know, but you'd still have your health, your abilities, and a second wild shape. There are ways to get out of that situation when it arises, which should be rare. Not that many people notice or care about a tiny spider crawling along the ceiling of a castle or dimly lit dungeon.

Not that many people, to be sure, but that's my whole point- if they're missing you, they're also missing the other spiders, insects, and other creatures which are around, which *are* going to notice or care, as you're direct competition. It's like a Honey I shrunk the kids style adventure- sure, you escape the notice of the folks around you (for better or worse), but that doesn't mean you escape the notice of everything around.

[odigity]

Not that many people, to be sure, but that's my whole point- if they're missing you, they're also missing the other spiders, insects, and other creatures which are around, which *are* going to notice or care, as you're direct competition. It's like a Honey I shrunk the kids style adventure- sure, you escape the notice of the folks around you (for better or worse), but that doesn't mean you escape the notice of everything around.

Sure, one bat noticing you ruins the ruse (though you do still have a second Wild Shape use at low level), but not every structure has a bat hanging about. Still an amazingly powerful use of a second level ability that just solves problems left and right, over and over.

[themaque]

Not that many people, to be sure, but that's my whole point- if they're missing you, they're also missing the other spiders, insects, and other creatures which are around, which *are* going to notice or care, as you're direct competition. It's like a Honey I shrunk the kids style adventure- sure, you escape the notice of the folks around you (for better or worse), but that doesn't mean you escape the notice of everything around.

Would make for a fun solo encounter to have to slink by opposing spiders, bugs or the dreaded HOUSCAT OF DOOM.

[MinaBee]

If memory serves, a Giant Spider is a valid wild shape for a 2nd level Moon Druid, so there is no reason that a much smaller spider would not be.

[Dalebert]

This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuM0aJjVgE) made me think of this thread, especially the very end.

[Shining Wrath]

There's two other issues, though; you have the senses of the spider, RAW is very clear that darkvision and so on don't carry over to a new form. And your movement speed is 20', so it takes some time for you to travel.

The resolving power of spider-sized eyes is not all that good. I might, as a DM, unleash teh Googlez on this to find out how far a spider can see, but I'll guess 5' is doing pretty well for an eyeball the size of a grain of dust. Also sounds are going to be processed differently as you lack ears of sufficient size to resolve longer wave lengths; e.g., the echolocation of a bat you'll hear, but a soprano will be garbled, and a bass completely unintelligible - again, unleash teh Googlez regarding wavelengths, but concert A is 440 Hz, the speed of sound in air is roughly 1000 feet per second, so the wavelength of the middle of the piano is 1000 / 440 ~= 2.1 feet. Human ears are designed to process these wavelengths, not so sure about spiders. You'll feel speech, perhaps, rather than hear it.

A bunch of hobgoblins with stereotypical bad-guy bass voices in rooms 20' across would represent a challenge.

Now I could just let rule of cool apply and handwave this away; so I think that allowing this to work but with some challenges is how to go. You have to get close to distinguish a hobgoblin from a goblin; you have to hold still and listen very carefully to understand speech. I'd have to give you a "roll every 10 minutes for wandering thing that preys on spiders" test, and the more attention you are paying to the humanoids, the less you pay to the centipedes.

Very cool idea, though.

[Beleriphon]

If you want the ultimate spy go with a flea. I can't imagine that most hobgoblins would notice a single flea attached to their armour.

[MaxWilson]

There's two other issues, though; you have the senses of the spider, RAW is very clear that darkvision and so on don't carry over to a new form. And your movement speed is 20', so it takes some time for you to travel.

You can cast Longstrider on yourself before you shift. That brings it up to 30.

[Mellack]

Isn't the "Tiny" size category from about 1-2 feet? That is still a pretty big spider. If 5e is like the other editions they you need to be able to get down to the "Fine" size to be a regular spider or a flea.

[Invader]

There's two other issues, though; you have the senses of the spider, RAW is very clear that darkvision and so on don't carry over to a new form. And your movement speed is 20', so it takes some time for you to travel.

The resolving power of spider-sized eyes is not all that good. I might, as a DM, unleash teh Googlez on this to find out how far a spider can see, but I'll guess 5' is doing pretty well for an eyeball the size of a grain of dust. Also sounds are going to be processed differently as you lack ears of sufficient size to resolve longer wave lengths; e.g., the echolocation of a bat you'll hear, but a soprano will be garbled, and a bass completely unintelligible - again, unleash teh Googlez regarding wavelengths, but concert A is 440 Hz, the speed of sound in air is roughly 1000 feet per second, so the wavelength of the middle of the piano is 1000 / 440 ~= 2.1 feet. Human ears are designed to process these wavelengths, not so sure about spiders. You'll feel speech, perhaps, rather than hear it.

A bunch of hobgoblins with stereotypical bad-guy bass voices in rooms 20' across would represent a challenge.

Now I could just let rule of cool apply and handwave this away; so I think that allowing this to work but with some challenges is how to go. You have to get close to distinguish a hobgoblin from a goblin; you have to hold still and listen very carefully to understand speech. I'd have to give you a "roll every 10 minutes for wandering thing that preys on spiders" test, and the more attention you are paying to the humanoids, the less you pay to the centipedes.

Very cool idea, though.

You're trying to apply real world physics when they don't need applied and the rules don't call for or have guidelines for it, this way lies nothing but madness...

[Shining Wrath]

You're trying to apply real world physics when they don't need applied and the rules don't call for or have guidelines for it, this way lies nothing but madness...

Physics is one thing; saying that a normal-size spider can't hear or see very well (and thereby posing an interesting challenge to a creative player) is hardly madness.

This way lies spontaneity

[rlc]

If you want the ultimate spy go with a flea. I can't imagine that most hobgoblins would notice a single flea attached to their armour.

or, find a bugbear and hop in its fur

[Safety Sword]

or, find a bugbear and hop in its fur

You risk being eaten by the bugbear's mate :P

[Kyutaru]

People that use insect forms for their Wild Shapes are trading their fear of Giant Spiders for a fear of normal sized spiders.

Sure, the players can become an insect. Now they can have fun on their solo adventure of surviving more than twenty minutes in the miniaturized world of Big Fish eats Little Fish and gets eaten by Bigger Fish. I don't think the heavily armed hobgoblins will be their biggest worry when they're running for their lives from ordinary birds.

[odigity]

I don't think the heavily armed hobgoblins will be their biggest worry when they're running for their lives from ordinary birds.

By "running for their lives", do you mean running for their Wild Shape use? Because if they get eaten, they just revert back and have lost one Wild Shape use. Scary.

And WTF is a bird doing in an underground Hobgoblin lair?

[Thrudd]

Yes, there are stats for a tiny spider is listed in the Monster Manual with a CR of 0, so it certainly seems like it would be an allowed use of wildshape unless the DMG says otherwise. However, it's "ultimate" status should be challenged by a reasonable DM, the scouting spider should be subject to the same chance of encounter as always. Even a spider attempting to be stealthy has a chance to be noticed. As others have mentioned, normal animals and vermin will be threats to a spider, and there's still a chance that a grumpy humanoid will just decide to attempt to squish a spider. The DM of a druid should prepare for this sort of thing with random tables for tiny size encounters and humanoid/monster reactions to nearby vermin. The spider has 1 hp, and AC 12, so you're really taking your life in your hands by spending an extended time in tiny size, especially since the other characters would not know when/if you were unconscious or dying and might not even be able to reach you in time if they somehow found out where you were. Going into the next room to scout and back again, fairly safe and reasonable. Exploring an entire dungeon complex in one go...almost certain death.

[Safety Sword]

By "running for their lives", do you mean running for their Wild Shape use? Because if they get eaten, they just revert back and have lost one Wild Shape use. Scary.

And WTF is a bird doing in an underground Hobgoblin lair?

Wizard familiar

[odigity]

...you're really taking your life in your hands... ...other characters would not know when/if you were unconscious or dying... ...almost certain death.

I've already pointed out why that's wrong several times in this thread. From the PHB:

"However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious."

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

[Kyutaru]

What exactly do the rules say about reverting to human form from the inside of something's stomach?

[Thrudd]

I've already pointed out why that's wrong several times in this thread. From the PHB:

"However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious."

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

ok, so you revert to human form, slightly to significantly injured, alone in the middle of the dungeon. Not immediately dead, but a good chance you aren't making it back out of there, unless your DM is a real pushover or there was nothing dangerous in there anyways.

[Dalebert]

With reasonable caution in mind for circumstances like those presented, I don't see why it's a horrible idea. I'm not sure why people seem so intent on discouraging it.

That said, I think an invisible familiar is a little better, which would make this not the ultimate. :smallsmile: Ideally that would be a superior familiar that can turn invisible on its own but it could also be a regular familiar that has some inherent stealth and small size with invisibility cast on it. If it dies, you're just out 10gp and an hour of your time to get it back. For common short scouting missions, I would probably just send the familiar in stealthily, again because it's fairly expendable. Up to 100 feet away keeps it in telepathy range and will often be enough to see down a corridor or around a corner, maybe even under a door depending on which type it is. It seems like largely what they're intended for now that they've made them so trivial to replace.

[Thrudd]

I wouldn't discourage it, I would just take reasonable in-game steps to make sure it is sufficiently dangerous. Being a wolf or a bear has risks, you still get attacked. The same should be true when you are a spider, if you are in a dangerous place.

[Giant2005]

I've already pointed out why that's wrong several times in this thread. From the PHB:

"However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious."

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

There aren't actual rules for it but relativity would be taken into account by any reasonable DM.
Being squished by something millions (billions?) times your mass is going to do more than the 1 damage that an unarmed attack would normally inflict. If the more reasonable damage was applied, it would be easily enough to kill the bug form as well as wipe out the Druid's HP.

[GiantOctopodes]

There aren't actual rules for it but relativity would be taken into account by any reasonable DM.
Being squished by something millions (billions?) times your mass is going to do more than the 1 damage that an unarmed attack would normally inflict. If the more reasonable damage was applied, it would be easily enough to kill the bug form as well as wipe out the Druid's HP.

No, it would do the amount an unarmed attack would do. It does the same amount of force as if he had stepped on your foot, it's just that your form is not very durable. And per the rules, any in excess to the 1 HP damage is carried over to your form, but as indicated previously, you do still have one wildshape left. And personally, I think that could be a grand adventure in and of yourself. What to do in that situation? Do you go Bear Form and try to solo the dungeon without support? Do you go Insect form again and try to get away? In which case, do you try to flee to somewhere they are not able to see you before changing, so they don't know the form you adopt, or do you adopt something very small but also very fast, like a tiny flyer, and try to outrun immediate pursuit? Even after you've changed form again, the same dangers are present as before, and you have to get past everything you've cleared previously to make it out, so do you keep scouting, even though they're likely on an insect killing rampage right now, or do you head out?

Again, I think it can be an interesting, effective, and fun tactic! It is simply not without its dangers. If you go the insect route again after being hit once, you are truly stuck in there without wildshape left should you be hit again (in which case hopefully you have a meld to stone you can use while waiting for the party to realize something is amiss and come for you). If you go the Bear route and try to solo the dungeon, you have a very real risk of being overwhelmed, lacking party support and spells at that point. It's not like the remaining wildshape is an automatic get out of jail free card, or else there wouldn't be a discussion of the dangers presented to the first wild shape form. It certainly is a *lot* better than if you didn't have it though!

And for the record, when eaten by something, you would be hit by a bite attack before being swallowed, so you would lose your 1 HP and revert long before you made it to the stomach. In a situation where you survive the bite attack, are swallowed, then revert to a form which doesn't even remotely fit in the stomach, the DM would have to adjudicate, but suffice to say I don't think it would be great for any parties involved. The more interesting question for me is what would happen if you were maneuvering through a crack in the wall from one side to the other when ambushed by another spider or something, and reverted inside the wall.

[Yagyujubei]

Sure, one bat noticing you ruins the ruse (though you do still have a second Wild Shape use at low level), but not every structure has a bat hanging about. Still an amazingly powerful use of a second level ability that just solves problems left and right, over and over.

yeah except bats aren't the only predator in the world, and imho it would be more than safe to say that there is no environment that is free of predators. In this regard I think its WAY WAY more dangerous to go around as a spider or a fly since base creatures have much more honed perception and instincts than humans in general.

if I were DMing I would roll a chance die for every minute you stayed in that form and eventually you would be attacked by a natural predator. reflex save Mr. fly

[Shining Wrath]

I think a DM should allow this, but as stated, make it challenging. When you are 1/4" tall you can't see very far.

It is an interesting question as to how much overkill a spider takes if it is stepped on. Your 1 HP is gone, no debate; the physical form you currently inhabit has been utterly destroyed, but the force applied to do so would not do much damage to your real form.

I'd say you take a few HP that transfer through to your druid form; your more immediate problem is that you are now prone in your druid form lying underneath a hobgoblin's boot. Or on the floor with a centipede's fangs still fixed in your body (centipede loses the surprise roll on this one, poor little critter never saw THAT coming).

[Jakinbandw]

What happens if you wild shape into a fly and then fly down someones throat? The fly dies and you turn back to normal form inside their throat? Who takes how much damage?

[Dalebert]

if I were DMing I would roll a chance die for every minute you stayed in that form and eventually you would be attacked by a natural predator. reflex save Mr. fly

Oh, good grief. How do any spiders survive long enough to reproduce with math like that? And yet we're surrounded by them, even when we don't realize it.

[Giant2005]

Oh, good grief. How do any spiders survive long enough to reproduce with math like that? And yet we're surrounded by them, even when we don't realize it.

To be fair spiders know how to avoid their predators. Druids don't have a clue what spiders do to keep themselves from drawing attention from predators.

[Yagyujubei]

To be fair spiders know how to avoid their predators. Druids don't have a clue what spiders do to keep themselves from drawing attention from predators.

exactly. and also they lay up to 1000 eggs when procreating, so think about that. spiders (and other insects) don't die out because of sheer numbers, but I'd bet that a small percentage actually live full lives whatever that may be

[JoeJ]

To be fair spiders know how to avoid their predators. Druids don't have a clue what spiders do to keep themselves from drawing attention from predators.

Why not? Are druids prohibited from making a careful study of nature? They should know how spiders (or anything else) survive if they make an Intelligence (Nature) check.

[Giant2005]

Why not? Are druids prohibited from making a careful study of nature? They should know how spiders (or anything else) survive if they make an Intelligence (Nature) check.

If he makes that roll and has spent a crapload of time in spider form honing his skills then yes. Otherwise it is like performing surgery after reading a medical book - sometimes knowledge is no substitute for training and experience.

[Dalebert]

To be fair spiders know how to avoid their predators. Druids don't have a clue what spiders do to keep themselves from drawing attention from predators.


Why not? Are druids prohibited from making a careful study of nature? They should know how spiders (or anything else) survive if they make an Intelligence (Nature) check.

Exactly. Druids are exponentially more intelligent than a spider. They can learn what a spider does purely by instinct and do it better. Also, they have all of the spider's instincts by wild-shaping into it, so they're doubly prepared to survive.


exactly. and also they lay up to 1000 eggs when procreating, so think about that. spiders (and other insects) don't die out because of sheer numbers, but I'd bet that a small percentage actually live full lives whatever that may be

Understood, and most of them do die off, probably huge clusters of them getting picked off just as they emerge from the egg sacks, but there's still no way a single one of those thousand eggs would make it to adulthood if there was even a slight chance (1 in 20) of a predator attacking every one of them every single minute of its life. The math remains absolutely absurd.

Do you need me to calculate some odds just for the number of minutes in one day of a spider's life? With 1 in 20 odds, every spider is being attacked by a predator 3 times an hour. Hell, I've watched spiders for longer than that and not seen it get attacked. I've seen a spider web last a couple weeks with a large spider sitting right in the middle of it.

Look. Yes, there are dangers involved, but some of you are exaggerating it. I'm not sure why. You just seem off-put against this particular tactic and seem to want to punish people for using it. I'd probably give them a small chance of being seen by a natural predator one time, maybe more if they were doing it for hours. That seems reasonable. What's probably a bigger concern is being seen by the humanoids that it's paying particular attention to and them squishing it because they are creeped out by spiders.

[JoeJ]

If he makes that roll and has spent a crapload of time in spider form honing his skills then yes. Otherwise it is like performing surgery after reading a medical book - sometimes knowledge is no substitute for training and experience.

Knowing what spiders do to avoid their enemies is the same as performing surgery? I don't think your comparison is realistic.

If you're determined to keep PCs from using this tactic, it would be better just to rule that there's a minimum size for wild shape. Your players will most likely respond to a flat prohibition much better than if you pretend you're going to let them do something when you actually have no intention of letting it work.

[Giant2005]

Knowing what spiders do to avoid their enemies is the same as performing surgery? I don't think your comparison is realistic.
It is as realistic as we can get without knowing the mind of a Spider but in reality surgery should be much, much easier.
Trying to emulate the nature of something with a mind so alien to us is near impossible. No matter how much we observe a spider, without knowing its thought processes or its reasoning we can never capture the nuances of its existence. When it comes to survival those nuances are obscenely important - we might observe spiders scurrying to dark corners to avoid being seen by birds but due to our inability to understand the spider's thought processes, we might think a situation requires scurrying to a corner when in reality that could be the worst possible course of action.
We can learn surgery but we can never learn the thought processes of a creature with a mind that is so different that it is unknowable.

[Dalebert]

The point is not relevant because a spider doesn't learn to protect itself. It has instincts that were passed down through its genetics--genetic memory if you will. A druid gets all of that by wild-shaping into it, PLUS human intelligence and probably natural knowledge on top of it. There's NO reason why a druid spider would be more vulnerable than a normal one.

[Giant2005]

The point is not relevant because a spider doesn't learn to protect itself. It has instincts that were passed down through its genetics--genetic memory if you will. A druid gets all of that by wild-shaping into it, PLUS human intelligence and probably natural knowledge on top of it. There's NO reason why a druid spider would be more vulnerable than a normal one.

The Druid doesn't get the mind of the animal that he is imitating, he keeps his own mental abilities and personality.

[Dalebert]

Insects and arachnids have no mind to speak of. They have instincts. For instance, building a web and knowing where to step on it so you don't get stuck yourself is all something a druid could presumably do in spider form and that's all instinct. You don't have to learn how to use the abilities of the creature you turn into.

Please try to give me some notion of what a spider is going to know to do that a druid isn't if it gets attacked. It will hide, flee, use its webbing, fight back, all things that the druid would also do and do just as well (maybe better due to smarts) using the spider's stats.

[Giant2005]

Please try to give me some notion of what a spider is going to know to do that a druid isn't if it gets attacked. It will hide, flee, use its webbing, fight back, all things that the druid would also do and do just as well (maybe better due to smarts) using the spider's stats.

It will know when to hide. It will know when to flee. It will know when to fight. It will know when to remain still.
Spiders exist because they know how to survive their natural predators. Humans don't know how to survive the natural predators of a Spider because those natural predators have never been a threat to us.

[Dalebert]

It will know when to hide. It will know when to flee. It will know when to fight. It will know when to remain still.

So when a druid takes on another form, and due to them having a human mind and not the mind of the animal, do you normally apply initiative penalties when they're attacked? Do you apply reductions in the creatures normal sensory range for sensing predators? Do you apply AC penalties because it doesn't dodge well or soon enough? Do you apply penalties to their stealth roll for "knowing when to remain still" which again falls under penalizing their senses.

If you're doing it for this case, why aren't you penalizing the druid every time they assume an animal form? Do you make them extra vulnerable to hawks and owls when they turn into a small bird? Do you make them extra vulnerable to dogs, coyotes, and badgers, when they turn into a cat?

This is all house-ruling that's completely out of line with the rules and significantly game-impacting. It's a huge druid nerf.

[Giant2005]

So when a druid takes on another form, and due to them having a human mind and not the mind of the animal, do you normally apply initiative penalties when they're attacked? Do you apply reductions in the creatures normal sensory range for sensing predators? Do you apply AC penalties because it doesn't dodge well or soon enough? Do you apply penalties to their stealth roll for "knowing when to remain still" which again falls under penalizing their senses.

If you're doing it for this case, why aren't you penalizing the druid every time they assume an animal form? Do you make them extra vulnerable to hawks and owls when they turn into a small bird? Do you make them extra vulnerable to dogs, coyotes, and badgers, when they turn into a cat?

This is all house-ruling that's completely out of line with the rules and significantly game-impacting. It's a huge druid nerf.

Nope but if they aren't successfully stealthing their natural enemies will attack them due to perceiving their unorthodox and erratic movements as a vulnerability.

[JoeJ]

Nope but if they aren't successfully stealthing their natural enemies will attack them due to perceiving their unorthodox and erratic movements as a vulnerability.

Okay, so if you're the DM we know not to play a druid. Got it.

[odigity]

No, it would do the amount an unarmed attack would do. It does the same amount of force as if he had stepped on your foot, it's just that your form is not very durable. And per the rules, any in excess to the 1 HP damage is carried over to your form, but as indicated previously, you do still have one wildshape left. And personally, I think that could be a grand adventure in and of yourself. What to do in that situation? Do you go Bear Form and try to solo the dungeon without support? Do you go Insect form again and try to get away? In which case, do you try to flee to somewhere they are not able to see you before changing, so they don't know the form you adopt, or do you adopt something very small but also very fast, like a tiny flyer, and try to outrun immediate pursuit? Even after you've changed form again, the same dangers are present as before, and you have to get past everything you've cleared previously to make it out, so do you keep scouting, even though they're likely on an insect killing rampage right now, or do you head out?

I had almost the exact same thought process, in that order, when we came up with the idea. :) Not 100% safe, but you do have lots of imperfect but often adequate options. As it should be.


yeah except bats aren't the only predator in the world, and imho it would be more than safe to say that there is no environment that is free of predators. In this regard I think its WAY WAY more dangerous to go around as a spider or a fly since base creatures have much more honed perception and instincts than humans in general.

Sure, there's the possibility of a bird or bat. But within the domain of mundane insects, aren't spiders, as predators of other insects, the top of the food chain? They are the ones that knock...


if I were DMing I would roll a chance die for every minute you stayed in that form and eventually you would be attacked by a natural predator. reflex save Mr. fly

Wow. Remind me never to play in your games.


your more immediate problem is that you are now prone in your druid form lying underneath a hobgoblin's boot.

Where does it say you are prone when you come out of Wild Shape, or that the stance you were in during Wild Shape carries over? Can you turn into a monkey, stand on your hands, then drop Wild Shape while maintaining your stance? Because if so, I'm totally doing that for my circus act.


What happens if you wild shape into a fly and then fly down someones throat? The fly dies and you turn back to normal form inside their throat? Who takes how much damage?

That's the real question that needs to be answered.

[odigity]

Jesus. I hadn't noticed before writing my last post that the thread had already flowed over into a page 2, and that there were 15 more.

[Giant2005]

Okay, so if you're the DM we know not to play a druid. Got it.

If you are imitating someone's lunch but not taking the measures that lunch would normally take to not be eaten, of course they will notice and try their luck at an easy meal.
That isn't some cautionary Druid tale, that is just common sense - any DM that wants to present a remotely plausible setting would do the same. The alternative of something seeing their natural prey in a seemingly vulnerable state and not capitalizing on the situation is just too implausible to permit.

[Tvtyrant]

Transform into a tiny insect, instantly eaten by a giant frog and digested slowly over 1,000 years.

[Cazero]

Regardless of whether a druid knows how spiders do to survive or not, the simple fact he is scouting (you know, the reason he assumed a spider shape in the first place) put him in a dangerous situation compared to the average day of a spider. Spiders don't move that much from their safe spots. Bird encounter justified.

[Dalebert]

Nope but if they aren't successfully stealthing their natural enemies will attack them due to perceiving their unorthodox and erratic movements as a vulnerability.


Okay, so if you're the DM we know not to play a druid. Got it.

Exactly.That same logic can be applied to any creature a druid becomes. It sounds like rather wild speculation. I'm pretty sure a bat in a dungeon either senses a spider, fly, whatever, and if he's at all hungry, he tries to eat it. The druid is going to be wary of predators just like a regular spider and has the same senses and response ability. The bat either catches the spider or he doesn't. Whether it's a normal spider or a druid-spider makes no difference. He's not contemplating "Hey, WTH? That spider just zigged when it should have zagged. I wasn't going to eat it but now that I know it's vulnerable..." I just don't follow the thinking at all. In fact, you could just as easily conclude that the bat is freaked out by the spider's bizarre behavior and less likely to eat it. I'm not suggesting that, of course. I don't think the bat is thinking about it much. It's alignment is neutral-hungry.

As for whether spiders travel that far, fine. Pick a different tiny creature that does move around a lot. Most of the bizarre logic would still apply. If you're intent on killing someone for this tactic, you'll succeed. You're the DM. Point is its chances of being attacked by a predator don't suddenly sky-rocket because it's actually druid-minded. You can play it however you want when you're DM, of course, but it screams killer-DM to me.

[odigity]

Regardless of whether a druid knows how spiders do to survive or not, the simple fact he is scouting (you know, the reason he assumed a spider shape in the first place) put him in a dangerous situation compared to the average day of a spider.

Everything has an element of danger. But is it more or less than the alternative?

If someone held a gun to my head and said I need to scout out the entirety of this Hobgolin lair before we enter, and gave me the choice of going as-is or as a tiny friggin spider, I'll take spider every day. I'm pretty sure going as me wouldn't turn out well.

[Giant2005]

I'm pretty sure a bat in a dungeon either senses a spider, fly, whatever, and if he's at all hungry, he tries to eat it.

That isn't how nature works. A hungry animal instinctively runs a risk assessment whenever they hunt - if the predator is disadvantaged due to the prey being aware or too close to cover or whatever, it will not strike. It will conserve its energy and wait for a more susceptible victim or risk blowing all of its energy on failed attempts and starve to death.
If a cat is ready to pounce on a mouse, the mouse will freeze up, twist its ear toward potential cover and lock eyes with the cat, ready to make a dash at the first sign of danger (Or something like that). With such obvious tells, the cat knows it has been spied and it knows the mouse is aware of the safety of cover nearby. If that mouse is close enough to that cover that the cat can't get him, the cat won't bother trying.
If that same situation involved a Druid Wild Shaped as a mouse, that Druid's human mind will change everything. The Druid may be less inclined to freeze up in the first place and instead of twisting his ear he will continue looking around with his eyes doing whatever it is that he is inclined to do in that situation. He isn't sending the cat the tells that he is aware of his path to freedom so the cat feels that it has caught the mouse in a vulnerable situation. The cat that would otherwise feel sure an attack would be a waste of energy now believes that the attack is a guaranteed success.

[GiantOctopodes]

That isn't how nature works. A hungry animal instinctively runs a risk assessment whenever they hunt - if the predator is disadvantaged due to the prey being aware or too close to cover or whatever, it will not strike. It will conserve its energy and wait for a more susceptible victim or risk blowing all of its energy on failed attempts and starve to death.
If a cat is ready to pounce on a mouse, the mouse will freeze up, twist its ear toward potential cover and lock eyes with the cat, ready to make a dash at the first sign of danger (Or something like that). With such obvious tells, the cat knows it has been spied and it knows the mouse is aware of the safety of cover nearby. If that mouse is close enough to that cover that the cat can't get him, the cat won't bother trying.
If that same situation involved a Druid Wild Shaped as a mouse, that Druid's human mind will change everything. The Druid may be less inclined to freeze up in the first place and instead of twisting his ear he will continue looking around with his eyes doing whatever it is that he is inclined to do in that situation. He isn't sending the cat the tells that he is aware of his path to freedom so the cat feels that it has caught the mouse in a vulnerable situation. The cat that would otherwise feel sure an attack would be a waste of energy now believes that the attack is a guaranteed success.

I get what you're *trying* to say. I really do. But you seem to be underestimating Druids. I would argue that might even be a fair point for a polymorphed creature in general. But a Druid knows *exactly* the kind of tells you're describing. They're scions of the natural world, and not for no reason. They know not only the subtle tells the cat would have that it is hunting, but also those exact behaviors which would trick it into thinking that attacking is a waste of time. You *could* require a knowledge nature check, but really, this should be an automatic pass for the Druid. This is what they do- and running around as a mouse is *just* as natural to them as running around as a human. Based on the rule of cool, the Druid has that covered.

Also, think about it from this perspective- even if it did make sense, which again I argue is not true in the specific case of the Druid, is it fun? To have *every* creature deliberately targeting the Druid because he is apparently so incompetent and bereft of knowledge of the natural environment he doesn't know the right thing to do? You think that when a Druid hears the warble of a Bird, he doesn't know *exactly* what that Bird is signaling? In many ways, because of his knowledge of not only Mice, but also Cats and their thought patterns, he is at an immense *advantage* in this mental game you are describing, because he can worm into the Cat's head and send it exactly the signals he wants to. He might play at being diseased (which almost all animals will avoid), might send the signals that he is fleeing from an entirely different predator (to make the Cat double check its surroundings, killing the opportunity), etc.

My point originally was that the world the Druid is moving into when taking on that size is not a sterile one bereft of predators. Furthermore, the idea that the Druid, roaming around through multiple other creature's existing domains is taking on an incredibly hazardous situation. Scouting creatures (whether bees, ants, or what have you) have *way* more danger than something which has claimed a lair as its own. Also keep in mind that D&D is not the semi-sterile world many of us live in today. Look more at the amount of wildlife that exists while deep roughing it than what you personally observe around your home. So certainly, I believe it's fair they encounter something. It's another thing entirely to say that they would not only encounter something, but be incompetent and clueless while doing so.

[Giant2005]

It's another thing entirely to say that they would not only encounter something, but be incompetent and clueless while doing so.

It isn't about incompetence, it is about intellect vs emotion. Humans have rational brains rendering it physically impossible for us to act purely off instinct or emotion - that mouse will have a response based off pure undiluted fear at a level that the rational human mind could never emulate. Unlike the Druid, the mouse isn't considering his options nor rationalizing the threat level when he sees the cat; with no intelligence to cloud his emotions that mouse is terrified on a level that the Druid could never comprehend, which will emit pheromones the Druid could not replicate without achieving that same impossible level of fear. The cat understands those pheromones as a sign of awareness and without them, the Druid just seems unaware and vulnerable. The Druid could understand and imitate the actions a mouse performs in such a situation but he couldn't imitate or even comprehend the subtleties that are involved and only possible in a mind that is free of human intelligence.

[Knaight]

But it's such a huge advantage at such low level that I just had to post here to confirm. Afterall, we now have an easy/safe way to scout the interior of any structure with a hole somewhere in it's exterior large enough for a tiny spider, which just about anything outside of maybe a modern clean labratory.

It's a huge advantage in certain circumstances, sure. The problem of predators has already been mentioned (though some of it is greatly exaggerated), but the big limit to the power of this tactic is how situationally limited it is. If only works when the party is on the offensive, and it relies on the rest of the party not getting noticed while the druid is scouting.


It isn't about incompetence, it is about intellect vs emotion. Humans have rational brains rendering it physically impossible for us to act purely off instinct or emotion - that mouse will have a response based off pure undiluted fear at a level that the rational human mind could never emulate.
Humans have brains which are capable of higher functions - a lot of the underlying things are still very much there. We still have instinctive reactions, we still have fight or flight responses, so on and so forth. Living in heavily settled areas dulls them to a pretty great extent, but it's not like our species has lost pure panic.

[JoeJ]

It isn't about incompetence, it is about intellect vs emotion. Humans have rational brains rendering it physically impossible for us to act purely off instinct or emotion - that mouse will have a response based off pure undiluted fear at a level that the rational human mind could never emulate. Unlike the Druid, the mouse isn't considering his options nor rationalizing the threat level when he sees the cat; with no intelligence to cloud his emotions that mouse is terrified on a level that the Druid could never comprehend, which will emit pheromones the Druid could not replicate without achieving that same impossible level of fear. The cat understands those pheromones as a sign of awareness and without them, the Druid just seems unaware and vulnerable. The Druid could understand and imitate the actions a mouse performs in such a situation but he couldn't imitate or even comprehend the subtleties that are involved and only possible in a mind that is free of human intelligence.

And just how, exactly, would you know what a mouse experiences? Or a cat? None of us here has ever been any kind of non-human animal at all, so this is just a wild guess on your part. And on the basis of that wild guess, you made up a house rule that a druid's magical wild shape ability doesn't let them act like the animal they changed into.

Do you tell your players before they create their characters that you've houseruled wild shape to be a deathtrap instead of the useful ability that it is in the PHB?

[Giant2005]

And just how, exactly, would you know what a mouse experiences? Or a cat? None of us here has ever been any kind of non-human animal at all, so this is just a wild guess on your part. And on the basis of that wild guess, you made up a house rule that a druid's magical wild shape ability doesn't let them act like the animal they changed into.

Do you tell your players before they create their characters that you've houseruled wild shape to be a deathtrap instead of the useful ability that it is in the PHB?

This is just silly.
I don't need to tell them that because the books already tell them that the Druid retains his only mental abilities and alignment. So of course my players are aware that a Wildshaped Druid doesn't act like the creature he is Wildshaped into - that Druid acts like a Druid that has Wildshaped into that creature.

[JoeJ]

This is just silly.
I don't need to tell them that because the books already tell them that the Druid retains his only mental abilities and alignment. So of course my players are aware that a Wildshaped Druid doesn't act like the creature he is Wildshaped into - that Druid acts like a Druid that has Wildshaped into that creature.

The PHB does not say that a wild shaped druid can't act like an animal. Just the opposite, in fact, since the druid specifically gains the animal's reflexes (included in the Dex score, according to the definition on p. 176) and skill proficiencies. Nothing in the PHB says that other animals perceive the druid's "unorthodox and erratic movements as a vulnerability." Those are house rules that you made up. And your house rule about wiping out the druids hit points if they get stepped on in spider form directly contradicts the PHB. How can you say that there's no need to tell the players that you've added new rules and changed existing ones in a way that profoundly affects class abilities?

Wild Shape is intended and presented as a useful ability. So useful, in fact, that one entire sub-class is built around it. But in your game, it's a death trap. Yet you say that you're not even warning your players that you intend to kill their character if they try to use this ability. Honestly, I can't imagine why anybody would ever want to play in that kind of a game.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I think this is a case of common sense ruining the intention of the ability.

I agree that you should know how a spider behaves, but I also think it's funny/true to D&D to throw a wrench in the schemes of players. Give them a challenge when they take insect form. I'd have a token encounter for sure. You stumbled on another spider's territory. **** is on!

Beyond that, it would take a spider WAY too long to scout out a dungeon...

[Knaight]

Beyond that, it would take a spider WAY too long to scout out a dungeon...

Sure, but there are a number of better options. For instance, if you've got an inhabited cave system that overlooks a marsh, a dragonfly flying in and around wouldn't be too out of place, and is relatively unlikely to be swatted at (a mosquito is probably more subtle, but it's not a good insect to choose if you don't want things trying to kill you).

[Shining Wrath]

We have another rules ambiguity - the sizes stop at "Tiny", so a cat is tiny, a mouse is tiny, a speck of dust is tiny, an electron is tiny.

Some tiny things are tinier than others. RAW they are all the same. A DM might want to houserule differences in speed, visual acuity, and so on between a spider the size of a flea and one the size of a housecat.

[Dalebert]

And on the basis of that wild guess, you made up a house rule that a druid's magical wild shape ability doesn't let them act like the animal they changed into.

Do you tell your players before they create their characters that you've houseruled wild shape to be a deathtrap instead of the useful ability that it is in the PHB?

Exactly. Whatever benefits the animal has, the druid gets it, and that includes their instincts. Most of what's being described is about animal instincts; not minds. It's all reflected in the mechanics. The only reason they say the druid's mind doesn't change is because animals have a very low Int and the druid retains his much higher human intelligence. It's clearly not intended to be an impediment because it's not reflected in any sort of in-game penalties.


I think this is a case of common sense ruining the intention of the ability.

Right. It's like when people try to figure out things in the game with physics instead of the rules, which are plenty complicated enough on their own. Plus, our world of physics and science does not jive with a world of magic. It's freakin' magic man! The druid BECOMES a spider and gets all the benefits of that change. Ain't no science gonna make sense outta that. Keep your dirty science out of it. :smallwink:


I agree that you should know how a spider behaves, but I also think it's funny/true to D&D to throw a wrench in the schemes of players. Give them a challenge when they take insect form. I'd have a token encounter for sure. You stumbled on another spider's territory. **** is on!

I actually tend to agree. An encounter should happen at some point and it could actually be quite fun; just not every freakin' minute. That's absurd. And I wouldn't have one happen every time the druid does this. That would just get tedious and not rule of cool anymore. And I would have the whole encounter miniaturized meaning I would treat it like they were both giant versions of themselves with multiple hit dice and such so the "giant" spider druid could actually duke it out with another even larger spider or a "giant" praying mantis even though the spider really only has one hit point.


Beyond that, it would take a spider WAY too long to scout out a dungeon...

Not really. Spiders have a 20 speed. Even if you cut that in half for it being a smaller spider, they could still cover a lot of ground in a few minutes. This is presumably all happening out of combat, after all.

[bloodshed343]

But what happens if you turn i to a fly and fly i to someones throat?

[Eslin]

But what happens if you turn i to a fly and fly i to someones throat?

If you transform into something too big for the space, you and the space both take bludgeoning damage until one of you bursts.
That's the way I rule it.

[DDogwood]

We have another rules ambiguity - the sizes stop at "Tiny", so a cat is tiny, a mouse is tiny, a speck of dust is tiny, an electron is tiny.

Some tiny things are tinier than others. RAW they are all the same. A DM might want to houserule differences in speed, visual acuity, and so on between a spider the size of a flea and one the size of a housecat.

The rules give at least a little guidance on this, though - apart from the spider, the smallest Tiny creatures in the Basic DMG are things like frogs, lizards, and rats. It's interesting to note that the frog is described as being too small to have any effective attacks - which suggests that the spider stats are for a spider that is too big for a frog to eat. My interpretation is that this means that the spider is a big freaking spider, and will probably attract at least some degree of attention in many enemy lairs.

That said, this really boils down to the fact that 5e puts more power in the DM's hands. I know people want consistent RAW for organized play, but that's simply not the way the game is designed. Maybe 5e is not a good edition for OP, I don't know.

When faced with a situation where a druid (or anyone) wants to scout out an enemy area in an unobtrusive form, the DM has to make a decision about how well it will work. Some principles to consider:

1. Try to say "yes" - I wouldn't disallow this, it's clever thinking. If scouting out the enemy area is going to remove all challenge for the players, maybe the DM needs to start designing areas where this trick won't reveal every surprise and threat.

2. Try to make it fun for everyone - I wouldn't make the scout take a 20- or 30-minute solo adventure while the rest of the party sits around, bored. I would probably give the character a quick map of the area, with notes about 3-5 groups of creatures, and tell them that it was hard to get too much detail because a cat/bird/other predator started chasing them partway through.

3. Don't let it become an easy out - DMs should reward clever thinking, but using the same trick over and over again isn't clever thinking. It's cool if the players use this trick a couple of times, but if it starts becoming standard procedure, then you might need to find ways to discourage it. The classics are:

a. The bad guys can do this too. PCs may be a little more cautious about overusing this trick when enemy characters start infiltrating their camps, too, especially if an NPC shapeshifted into a rat starts stealing small, valuable items from the PCs under the nose of anyone keeping watch (or while they're all sleeping in the inn).

b. The bad guys smarten up. The orcs in the low-level dungeon don't have precautions against this, but the Red Mages of Thay have known this trick for years. That's why they have traps for tiny creatures in corners and stuff, which normal adventurers would never notice. Any group that makes this a habit will EVENTUALLY run into a situation where their scout is captured or cornered in enemy territory. Note that this shouldn't be the first or second time the group uses this, but only when it makes sense that the enemy would be prepared for this type of scouting.

c. 60% of the time, it works every time - sometimes, scouting as a tiny creature just doesn't work out. In a dungeon where there is a narrow bridge spanning a windy chasm or running through a powerful waterfall, a tiny spider simply might not be physically capable of scouting any further in. This one takes prep on the DM's part, but just because something works most of the time doesn't mean it should work ALL of the time.

Whatever response you choose, I don't think it would be much fun to play a game where we spent most of our time arguing about how far a spider can see.

[Dalebert]

When faced with a situation where a druid (or anyone) wants to scout out an enemy area in an unobtrusive form, the DM has to make a decision about how well it will work. Some principles to consider:

*snip*


Kudos for probably the most substantive and reasonable post so far. I like this approach to problem solving. You're following the golden rule of gaming--keep it fun. It shouldn't be too easy or redundant and you also shouldn't go the other extreme and be a killer DM/party pooper. I would love to play in one of your games. Are you in NH? :smallwink:

[Invader]

Physics is one thing; saying that a normal-size spider can't hear or see very well (and thereby posing an interesting challenge to a creative player) is hardly madness.

This way lies spontaneity

No because you're adding completely arbitrarily rules for one set of creatures but not all of them. You don't come up with different senses for an eagle, dog, or mouse when the druid is in those forms and they certainly all see/hear/smell at vastly different capabilities. It makes no sense to do it for an insect.

[Invader]

That isn't how nature works. A hungry animal instinctively runs a risk assessment whenever they hunt - if the predator is disadvantaged due to the prey being aware or too close to cover or whatever, it will not strike.


That's not true at all. Predators will attack if disadvantaged for a number of reasons and do so quite commonly.

[Knaight]

No because you're adding completely arbitrarily rules for one set of creatures but not all of them. You don't come up with different senses for an eagle, dog, or mouse when the druid is in those forms and they certainly all see/hear/smell at vastly different capabilities. It makes no sense to do it for an insect.
I would definitely come up with different senses. If someone wildshapes into a dog, scents are suddenly going to be a much, much bigger part of my descriptions. If someone wildshapes into an eagle, small visual details are going to be emphasized. So on and so forth.


The rules give at least a little guidance on this, though - apart from the spider, the smallest Tiny creatures in the Basic DMG are things like frogs, lizards, and rats. It's interesting to note that the frog is described as being too small to have any effective attacks - which suggests that the spider stats are for a spider that is too big for a frog to eat. My interpretation is that this means that the spider is a big freaking spider, and will probably attract at least some degree of attention in many enemy lairs.

That said, this really boils down to the fact that 5e puts more power in the DM's hands. I know people want consistent RAW for organized play, but that's simply not the way the game is designed. Maybe 5e is not a good edition for OP, I don't know.
Less defined sizes has absolutely nothing to do with power in the DM's hands. It has to do with game focus - the game is specifically focused around the sizes that are relevant to the PCs, which generally doesn't drop below the smallest tiny creatures. There's just no need for a size for small insects, let alone for bacteria or similar. With that said, plenty of games have scale systems which are an exponential progression and can include these things - said systems don't somehow reduce the GM's power.

[MrUberGr]

A question that came to mind in yesterday's session. We did something like that, only that I polymorphed a party member into a bird. Supposes that the polymorphed critter, be it a bird, a spider or what have you, get's swallowed whole by something. What would happen then? Would it revert to it's original form inside the creature because it took damage from being swallowed? And how would that work?

[Blacky the Blackball]

But what happens if you turn i to a fly and fly i to someones throat?

They have to swallow a spider to catch you.

[Shining Wrath]

No because you're adding completely arbitrarily rules for one set of creatures but not all of them. You don't come up with different senses for an eagle, dog, or mouse when the druid is in those forms and they certainly all see/hear/smell at vastly different capabilities. It makes no sense to do it for an insect.

I would absolutely give a wolf druid advantage on anything involving smell, and an eagle druid is in fact capable of scouting from miles up in the air. RAW you lose darkvision unless your new form has it; the converse is also true, you gain sensory advantage with a well-chosen shapechange.