Leomund's Tiny Hut = combat stronghold?

[odigity]

It seems that 5e has turned LTH from an adventuring utility spell into a powerhouse of defense.

Eight hours, party can see out, others can't see in, party can move through the walls freely, others can't. Short of a Dispel Magic, nothing is getting through there. You can camp out in the middle of a raging battle between two massive armies and watch the action around you safely, and even pop out for an attack and retreat back in before the end of your turn.

[Shadow]

You can camp out in the middle of a raging battle

.... assuming you could find ten rounds to cast it, sure.

[odigity]

.... assuming you could find ten rounds to cast it, sure.

I'm aware of the casting time. It's not spammable in every conventional encounter, but I can think of times it would be:
- a battle that lasts more than ten rounds
- a battle you have a minute's advanced warning of (or even less)

Neither of those are so rare as to be exotic.

[Kaeso]

I'm aware of the casting time. It's not spammable in every conventional encounter, but I can think of times it would be:
- a battle that lasts more than ten rounds
- a battle you have a minute's advanced warning of (or even less)

Neither of those are so rare as to be exotic.

Depending on how common magic is in the setting, I could see warfare turning into trench warfare with Leomunds Tiny Hut being casted by the army's mages.

[Demonic Spoon]

Ready actions pretty well prevent you from using it as a combat fortress.

[odigity]

Ready actions pretty well prevent you from using it as a combat fortress.

Not entirely. Remember, you can see out, they can't see in. They have to spread out to cover all sides. Plus, you can send the tank our first, with the Dodge action and buffs, burn up their attacks, then the rest of the party pops out and makes theirs. The visibility differential is a huge advantage.

Speaking of which, another fun trick might be to fake assault a stronghold, run away in fake fear, retreating into a pre-cast Hut. Then cast Invisibility on everyone, sneak out, and go loot the place while the guards/monsters/whatever are busy surrounding the Hut waiting for you to come out, for possibly up to eight hours.

[Shadow]

Not entirely. Remember, you can see out, they can't see in. They have to spread out to cover all sides. Plus, you can send the tank our first, with the Dodge action and buffs, burn up their attacks, then the rest of the party pops out and makes theirs. The visibility differential is a huge advantage.

Speaking of which, another fun trick might be to fake assault a stronghold, run away in fake fear, retreating into a pre-cast Hut. Then cast Invisibility on everyone, sneak out, and go loot the place while the guards/monsters/whatever are busy surrounding the Hut waiting for you to come out, for possibly up to eight hours.

First, he was referring to a readied action to attempt to disrupt the cast. And it wouldn't even need to be readied, sinnce you have ten entire rounds to try to stop it, and the caster can't do anything to stop you from killing him during those then rounds.
Anyone that can't kill a basically defenseless caster in ten rounds.... *shake my head*

Second, your plan doesn't work unless the caster stays behind. If he leaves, the spell ends.

[Demonic Spoon]

I was actually referring to beating on people leaving the already-cast hut.

Regardless, no one says the enemies can't hold stuff in reserve to beat on any squishies that come out.

[themaque]

I was actually referring to beating on people leaving the already-cast hut.

Regardless, no one says the enemies can't hold stuff in reserve to beat on any squishies that come out.

Same could apply for any stronghold or the like. AFB but Partially stepping out in order to retain cover isn't in the realm of impossibility I would think.

It's not for every situation, but it's not a bad idea.

[MaxWilson]

Same could apply for any stronghold or the like. AFB but Partially stepping out in order to retain cover isn't in the realm of impossibility I would think.

It's not for every situation, but it's not a bad idea.

Why would you step out at all? You can fire arrows out with no problem, since objects inside the shell when it is created can pass through it freely.

[JoeJ]

You could also use it to block a narrow passage, which might be a good way for a spellcasting minion to facilitate the escape of the BBEG.

[odigity]

Why would you step out at all? You can fire arrows out with no problem, since objects inside the shell when it is created can pass through it freely.

Good catch, that's totally legal by RAW. Wow. That is sick.

[MaxWilson]

That's why we call it Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress. :)

[Teulisch]

its a ritual, so it can be cast in 11 minutes without needing a spell slot. that makes it a very useful utility spell, and good for staying safe in hostile terrain.

also... i dont see anything to prevent casting, moving 10' to the edge, and casting again. as long as your buddies stay within the radius, you can walk a line of these through hostile territory. such as to get next to the wall of a castle that your besieging, and thus use another spell at point blank to take out the wall. once you have one of these, you can potentially use it indefinitely with proper timing of rituals. if used right outside of a door (if the hallway is wide enough) then you can really screw with the encounter inside. now, add in a few reach weapons, and you have a fighting hedgehog. heck, you could probably position this to work over a siege weapon.

the serious downside to this spell... if you go out and pick something up, it sounds like you cant bring that item through the area in question, so it makes looting treasure a bit tricky. also it sounds like it will block misty step and other teleportation magic as well. the other downside is that its a hemisphere- it says nothing about tunneling UNDER the barrier, although i would assume it has a floor there is no specific mention of such.

[odigity]

its a ritual, so it can be cast in 11 minutes without needing a spell slot. that makes it a very useful utility spell, and good for staying safe in hostile terrain.

also... i dont see anything to prevent casting, moving 10' to the edge, and casting again. as long as your buddies stay within the radius, you can walk a line of these through hostile territory. such as to get next to the wall of a castle that your besieging, and thus use another spell at point blank to take out the wall. once you have one of these, you can potentially use it indefinitely with proper timing of rituals. if used right outside of a door (if the hallway is wide enough) then you can really screw with the encounter inside. now, add in a few reach weapons, and you have a fighting hedgehog. heck, you could probably position this to work over a siege weapon.

the serious downside to this spell... if you go out and pick something up, it sounds like you cant bring that item through the area in question, so it makes looting treasure a bit tricky. also it sounds like it will block misty step and other teleportation magic as well. the other downside is that its a hemisphere- it says nothing about tunneling UNDER the barrier, although i would assume it has a floor there is no specific mention of such.

Those are some great ideas. I seriously want to try the chain of huts tactic now. Storming the castle at < 40' / 11m! :)

[Dalebert]

Those are some great ideas. I seriously want to try the chain of huts tactic now. Storming the castle at < 40' / 11m! :)

I think there's some unofficial rule about not trying to break the game. You're going to make the DM take it away from me! ;)

[GutterFace]

Does the spell description say anything about if it's technically a sealed structure? does air flow in and out? can you use it as a submarine or boat?

[JoeJ]

I could easily see it being a standard tactic in siege warfare to use this spell to protect a ram or pick as it's slowly moved up to the castle wall. If it's dispelled, the armor on the ram can probably protect the caster from arrows or other overhead attacks long enough to cast it again. Defenders could use LTH to protect a breach in the wall long enough to do some quick repairs.

I do think the lack of any mention of a floor means the burrowing inside should work, as would burying a bomb or other trap in its path. Nobody ever claimed that siege warfare was safe, though, right?

[Beleriphon]

Does the spell description say anything about if it's technically a sealed structure? does air flow in and out? can you use it as a submarine or boat?

I don't see why a boat wouldn't work, but a submaine not so much. That's just my feeling on the issue, but there's nothing about it that specifically says no.

[Dalebert]

Does the spell description say anything about if it's technically a sealed structure? does air flow in and out? can you use it as a submarine or boat?

"A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration."

It's immobile and it's a dome that's around and above you, so no boat. It doesn't say anything about you suffocating inside so it presumably allows some ventilation.

[JoeJ]

"A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration."

It's immobile and it's a dome that's around and above you, so no boat. It doesn't say anything about you suffocating inside so it presumably allows some ventilation.

By recasting over and over again you could use it to walk along the bottom of a lake or ocean, at a movement speed of about 10' every 11 minutes. This might be useful if you don't have an Apparatus of Kwalish.

[Dalebert]

By recasting over and over again you could use it to walk along the bottom of a lake or ocean, at a movement speed of about 10' every 11 minutes. This might be useful if you don't have an Apparatus of Kwalish.

How would you get air into it each time you cast it?

EDIT: Nevermind. "The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside."

My tome warlock could ritual cast water breathing on the party, swim down, ritual cast LTH, and then they could stay down there practically indefinitely.

[odigity]

My tome warlock could ritual cast water breathing on the party, swim down, ritual cast LTH, and then they could stay down there practically indefinitely.

Now we just need a hot crustacean band.

[Dalebert]

You need an avatar, Odigity.

[odigity]

You need an avatar, Odigity.

Where/how do I get one?

[Dalebert]

Where/how do I get one?

The easiest way is to just click Settings->General Settings and just scroll down and pick one. Otherwise you can grab an image from anywhere and link it.

[odigity]

The easiest way is to just click Settings->General Settings and just scroll down and pick one. Otherwise you can grab an image from anywhere and link it.

There, I'm a Zombie. Hope that makes everyone's experience better than no image at all. :)

(I picked a built-in one because some of the people on these forums actually believe in Intellectual Property, and I didn't want to run afoul of some rule or cultural taboo or something by grabbing a random image off the net.)

[SliceandDiceKid]

As far as use around a very small vessel, that's arguable. What is immobile? Does it move with the planet?if so, wouldn't it stay with whatever inanimate matter it was cast around? I'd never rule it as something like that, but a bunch of playgrounders allow more ridiculous exploits at your tables.

[Totema]

Oh jeez, this is starting to head into the direction of the legendary immovable rod debates...

[Dalebert]

As far as use around a very small vessel, that's arguable. What is immobile? Does it move with the planet?if so, wouldn't it stay with whatever inanimate matter it was cast around? I'd never rule it as something like that, but a bunch of playgrounders allow more ridiculous exploits at your tables.

Good points. The question asked earlier was could it be used AS a boat. I thought the idea was to create a dome and flip it over and ride in it, which is definitely out of the question.

[Maxilian]

It seems that 5e has turned LTH from an adventuring utility spell into a powerhouse of defense.

Eight hours, party can see out, others can't see in, party can move through the walls freely, others can't. Short of a Dispel Magic, nothing is getting through there. You can camp out in the middle of a raging battle between two massive armies and watch the action around you safely, and even pop out for an attack and retreat back in before the end of your turn.

Yeah.... no, is true, the players may do something like that but the DM just have to find a good way to answer, for example, if they are in a cave the enemy could make the ceiling fall on top of the hut covering it completely so they can't escape and as soon as the hut vanish they will be crushed, or just fill the area with traps and it won't be unfair to the players, cause they will be able to see what's happening around and if they will have time to react

[MaxWilson]

Yeah.... no, is true, the players may do something like that but the DM just have to find a good way to answer, for example, if they are in a cave the enemy could make the ceiling fall on top of the hut covering it completely so they can't escape and as soon as the hut vanish they will be crushed, or just fill the area with traps and it won't be unfair to the players, cause they will be able to see what's happening around and if they will have time to react

Yes, they will have plenty of time to shoot arrows at all the little goblins that are busy laying caltrops around the hut.

[Dalebert]

Yeah.... no, is true, the players may do something like that but the DM just have to find a good way to answer, for example, if they are in a cave the enemy could make the ceiling fall on top of the hut covering it completely so they can't escape and as soon as the hut vanish they will be crushed, or just fill the area with traps and it won't be unfair to the players, cause they will be able to see what's happening around and if they will have time to react

Do they have sticks of dynamite and demolitions? This isn't World of Warcraft. :smallbiggrin:

Traps are a good point though, especially if the entire party decides to go to sleep without having someone on watch because the hut has made them overconfident.

[Maxilian]

Do they have sticks of dynamite and demolitions? This isn't World of Warcraft. :smallbiggrin:


You just need any type of caster to do that :smallbiggrin:


Yes, they will have plenty of time to shoot arrows at all the little goblins that are busy laying caltrops around the hut.

They will first need to leave the hut to shoot anything at them and the enemy will be prepared

[MaxWilson]

They will first need to leave the hut to shoot anything at them and the enemy will be prepared

No, actually they don't need to leave the hut. They can see through the hut, and arrows that are inside the hut when it is created can pass through it freely, so they can shoot through it.

[Dalebert]

You just need any type of caster to do that :smallbiggrin:

What spell did you have in mind that will bring a rock roof down in a room? I'm not saying one doesn't exist but what level and class is it and how many creatures in dungeons are going to have it known/prepared? It's at best an extremely situational concern. You speak of it like it's a trivial thing to do. If it were, I think it would be happening fairly frequently and not just as a tactic for dealing with tiny huts.

[Shining Wrath]

I believe that you can stay inside your hut and cast spells through the walls, so this makes LTH a seriously upgraded Sanctuary spell. I am AFB, but does the spell description explicitly say that an area effect spell doesn't penetrate the walls? Otherwise a fireball or two will bring you out.

I think the way an intelligent foe is going to deal with this is to leave the room / retreat to a distance and send for reinforcements. Since LTH can't be moved it loses utility against a mobile foe. For the pedantic, I rule that LTH is immobile with respect to the game world-equivalent to the earth centered earth fixed reference frame (ECEF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECEF)).

If they have total cover against your spells and arrows, LTH lets you rest - but as you rest, they also gain strength.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I believe that you can stay inside your hut and cast spells through the walls, so this makes LTH a seriously upgraded Sanctuary spell. I am AFB, but does the spell description explicitly say that an area effect spell doesn't penetrate the walls? Otherwise a fireball or two will bring you out.

I think the way an intelligent foe is going to deal with this is to leave the room / retreat to a distance and send for reinforcements. Since LTH can't be moved it loses utility against a mobile foe. For the pedantic, I rule that LTH is immobile with respect to the game world-equivalent to the earth centered earth fixed reference frame (ECEF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECEF)).

If they have total cover against your spells and arrows, LTH lets you rest - but as you rest, they also gain strength.

I don't think magic passes through the barrier.

Also, max read the rest of the thread. Objects inside the area at time of casting can pass through. We've already addressed this.

Though, if you can fire arrows out, can they fire the same ones back in?

[Dalebert]

Magic can't pass through either direction.


Since LTH can't be moved it loses utility against a mobile foe.

OP pointed out that you could keep casting it as a ritual from inside. Move over 5 feet, cast, repeat as needed. In this manner you could approach a target or retreat. However, it has just occurred to me that smart enemies will surround your hut tightly so that at least some would fall within the area upon a new casting and thus be able to pass through freely, as well as all the objects (weapons) they're carrying.


Though, if you can fire arrows out, can they fire the same ones back in?

Yes! I hadn't thought of that. You've found a loophole. However, you'd still be at a disadvantage because you can't see inside.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Magic can't pass through either direction.



OP pointed out that you could keep casting it as a ritual from inside. Move over 5 feet, cast, repeat as needed. In this manner you could approach a target or retreat. However, it has just occurred to me that smart enemies will surround your hut tightly so that at least some would fall within the area upon a new casting and thus be able to pass through freely, as well as all the objects (weapons) they're carrying.



Yes! I hadn't thought of that. You've found a loophole. However, you'd still be at a disadvantage because you can't see inside.

Granted, you could say only 50% could be fired back, and they can't see inside, so you're not totally screwed, but it's not perfectly safe. I'd still love to see it used by rangers (ranged chars) as a turret to fire out of in foreseeable combat instances.

[MaxWilson]

Though, if you can fire arrows out, can they fire the same ones back in?

Yes, they can. That's clever.

[Dalebert]

Granted, you could say only 50% could be fired back, and they can't see inside, so you're not totally screwed, but it's not perfectly safe. I'd still love to see it used by rangers (ranged chars) as a turret to fire out of in foreseeable combat instances.

Smart ones will use flaming arrows. :smallcool:

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes, they can. That's clever.

Also, the "max read the thread" was for maximillion, not you.

[Maxilian]

No, actually they don't need to leave the hut. They can see through the hut, and arrows that are inside the hut when it is created can pass through it freely, so they can shoot through it.

Yeah you're right, they can

[SliceandDiceKid]

Smart ones will use flaming arrows. :smallcool:

Dale I didn't see this! Brilliant!