St template and outsider type

[maniacalmojo]

So the saint template gives you a 2LA and makes you an outsider. I have seen many people say how amazing the outsider subtype is why?

Also being as its 2LA but gives the outsider type does that mean for those two i get the HD and Skill points of outsider? Otherwise if we start at level 3 i just have first level stats?

[Sian]

first things first:

Reading the template closely you'll notice that you can't take it before you are (at the very least) Character level 6th, with 3 Exalted feats so its not as simple to enter as it initially appears

you don't get Outsider HD or skill points as the like as its an LA+2, it doesn't give Racial Hit Dice, say if the rest of your party is level 10, you'd be a level 8 with Saint.

Outsider is good but nothing more than that, the great thing about Saint is all the other things it brings to the table.

[Venger]

So the saint template gives you a 2LA and makes you an outsider. I have seen many people say how amazing the outsider subtype is why?

Also being as its 2LA but gives the outsider type does that mean for those two i get the HD and Skill points of outsider? Otherwise if we start at level 3 i just have first level stats?

outsider is a type, not a subtype.

LA ≠ RHD. it gives you an LA of 2, not 2 RHD, no no, you don't get any of that stuff.

That said, if you are human and okay with lagging 2 lvls behind your party, you can start out as a level 3 saint at ECL 5, or if you really wanted to push your luck, a level 2 saint at ECL 4 if both your levels were in human paragon.


first things first:

Reading the template closely you'll notice that you can't take it before you are (at the very least) Character level 6th, with 3 Exalted feats so its not as simple to enter as it initially appears

you don't get Outsider HD or skill points as the like as its an LA+2, it doesn't give Racial Hit Dice, say if the rest of your party is level 10, you'd be a level 8 with Saint.

Outsider is good but nothing more than that, the great thing about Saint is all the other things it brings to the table.
any human character can qualify at level 3. a human paragon can qualify at level 2.

[Sian]

any human character can qualify at level 3. a human paragon can qualify at level 2.

Nope ... Saint Template says you should qualify for Sainthood (which is described in Chapter 2) which in turn explictly says that you have to be at least 6th level

[Venger]

Nope ... Saint Template says you should qualify for Sainthood (which is described in Chapter 2) which in turn explictly says that you have to be at least 6th level

huh. what a peculiar prerequisite. I hate stuff like that. no clever way to get around it.

[torrasque666]

huh. what a peculiar prerequisite. I hate stuff like that. no clever way to get around it.
I know right? Hard and fast requirements are awful aren't they?

[Venger]

I know right? Hard and fast requirements are awful aren't they?

well, yeah? that's what I just said. I don't like things in the game that there is only 1 way to enter. It's annoying and restricts customization. Probably a habit of cooking in 25+ iron chefs.

[torrasque666]

well, yeah? that's what I just said. I don't like things in the game that there is only 1 way to enter. It's annoying and restricts customization. Probably a habit of cooking in 25+ iron chefs.

Its "one way to enter" is pretty much be A) living non-outsider/elemental (so no necropolitans here) B) Exalted good, C) 3 Exalted feats, D) Level six.

You're complaining about D). Something that has the most minimal impact on a build ever. Basically, you're claiming that the reason you don't like it is that it restricts customization. Hence the blue text, because your complaint has some of the least validity I've ever seen, at least when applied to this.

[Venger]

Its "one way to enter" is pretty much be A) living non-outsider/elemental (so no necropolitans here) B) Exalted good, C) 3 Exalted feats, D) Level six.

You're complaining about D). Something that has the most minimal impact on a build ever. Basically, you're claiming that the reason you don't like it is that it restricts customization. Hence the blue text, because your complaint has some of the least validity I've ever seen, at least when applied to this.

I think we might just have different end goals in mind. To me, prerequisites are a challenge, saying "how can you get around this hurdle we're putting in front of you and get rewarded with this class/feat/whatever"

things like feats or skills or CL or whatever are flexible, but what I dislike are things like levelreqs or BA because it's just saying "you must be level x to do this cool thing. do not pass go, do not collect 200gp." it's not that I want to be a saint at level 1 (or ECL 3 in this case) it's that I resent being told when I can and can't enter stuff. it's the principle, I suppose you'd say.

[torrasque666]

I think we might just have different end goals in mind. To me, prerequisites are a challenge, saying "how can you get around this hurdle we're putting in front of you and get rewarded with this class/feat/whatever"

things like feats or skills or CL or whatever are flexible, but what I dislike are things like levelreqs or BA because it's just saying "you must be level x to do this cool thing. do not pass go, do not collect 200gp." it's not that I want to be a saint at level 1 (or ECL 3 in this case) it's that I resent being told when I can and can't enter stuff. it's the principle, I suppose you'd say.

aye, i understand that, but by that logic you'd also hate the fact that you cannot do 9th level spells at levels lower than 17 minimum. Or 15 with ur-priest/something similar. Part of having a rules system is that it has to have limitations on when you can do things. Its part of the very basic priniciple of rules, otherwise we'd have chaos anytime someone tried to play a board game. And my point is that its a stupid objection when compared to the rest of things available to complain about.

[Venger]

aye, i understand that, but by that logic you'd also hate the fact that you cannot do 9th level spells at levels lower than 17 minimum. Or 15 with ur-priest/something similar. Part of having a rules system is that it has to have limitations on when you can do things. Its part of the very basic priniciple of rules, otherwise we'd have chaos anytime someone tried to play a board game. And my point is that its a stupid objection when compared to the rest of things available to complain about.

oh, no, I have no strong feelings about that. I'm just talking about stuff like prerequisites, predominantly for prcs.

the design philosophy, even with feats, means that oftentimes you'll see other feats or sometimes skills as a prereq, but a prereq like "must be at least 6th level" much more rarely. there's no way for ingenuity to overcome that, and that's why it sort of bothers me. it seems to run counter to how much of the rest of the game works when it comes to qualifications.

you might not always be able to enter that early (or early at all) and it might not even always be a good idea to be weird and enter something differently from how you're supposed to, but it's usually possible, and that's party of what I enjoy about the system. having multiple ways into everything is why the game's still being played 6 years after it went out of print. "must be xth lvl" seems to go against that philosophy.

>rest of the things

do you mean about saint, or what? everything else I understand, but I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit.

[torrasque666]

>rest of the things

do you mean about saint, or what? everything else I understand, but I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit.

like the fact that there's no real comparable template for evil-doers, the monk's dysfunction, the whole casters-vs-martials bit. You know, the typical complaints around here.

[Urpriest]

For the OP: your post makes me think you really really need to read my Monster Handbook, link in sig. If you're confusing LA and RHD then you need a monster education!

[atemu1234]

well, yeah? that's what I just said. I don't like things in the game that there is only 1 way to enter. It's annoying and restricts customization. Probably a habit of cooking in 25+ iron chefs.

Iron Chef: the Breaking Bad of D&D.

[Venger]

Iron Chef: the Breaking Bad of D&D.

The urge to post a picture of myself wearing a porkpie and looking constipated is . . . immense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The urge to post a picture of myself wearing a porkpie and looking constipated is . . . immense.

Bearing in mind that I have no idea what you look like; please don't. :smalleek: I'm not sure what a porkpie is but if you're trying to recreate some of the iconic pictures of walter white from breaking bad, that's not a good look for anybody.

[Venger]

Bearing in mind that I have no idea what you look like; please don't. :smalleek: I'm not sure what a porkpie is but if you're trying to recreate some of the iconic pictures of walter white from breaking bad, that's not a good look for anybody.

It's cool, I'm secretly Bryan Cranston. Don't tell anybody

Even without posting a picture of myself, my hideousness is so great, it inspires fear in others. achievement unlocked?

a porkpie is the name of that stupid black hat he wears all the time to try to look like a badass. it's also what clark kent used to wear from 38 all the way til he stopped being played by christopher reeve in 87.

I know it's not a good look for anybody, that's the joke I was making, and the joke breaking bad was making. walter wore that hat because he thought that's what cool badass gangsters wear. it's a sort of jab by the creators at the kind of people who wear fedoras/trilbies thinking it makes them look like a badass.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A fedora can complete a look for someone who's aiming at bad ass. Three piece suit; black with understated pinstripes; deep crimson button down, black tie, a nice pair of black leather shoes, shades with a low-profile frame, and the fedora. Bam. Old-school mafioso. Very badass IMHO.

[Phelix-Mu]

A fedora can complete a look for someone who's aiming at bad ass. Three piece suit; black with understated pinstripes; deep crimson button down, black tie, a nice pair of black leather shoes, shades with a low-profile frame, and the fedora. Bam. Old-school mafioso. Very badass IMHO.

The hat discussion plus the thread title has me picturing Mother Theresa in a fedora. *head explodes*

I agree that a well-picked hat can perfectly top-off a coordinated ensemble. But....

Wait...

Wait...

omg, just got a nice mental image of a femme fatale succubus in a fascinator. Wow. Shake 'n Bake NPC.

Anyway, I was going to say that most of the best ensembles with a hat are so well-done and archetypal that they verge on stereotypes, and thus I tend to avoid them. Sometimes the best use is tongue-in-cheek, or self-deprecating, such that the actual use of the hat is subverting the archetype that it usually evokes. I picture Jarlaxle from Menzoberranzan, who dressed all dandy and foppish to distract people from the fact that he was actually incredibly smart and cunning, to take advantage of that moment where no one was taking him seriously cause he looked so outlandish.

[Dgrin]

The hat discussion in this thread suddenly reminded me of that ongoing saga (http://imgur.com/a/Z8laP#0)

EDIT: I'm sorry for further derailing the thread but... Yea

[Phelix-Mu]

The hat discussion in this thread suddenly reminded me of that ongoing saga (http://imgur.com/a/Z8laP#0)

EDIT: I'm sorry for further derailing the thread but... Yea

Hehe. No end to the weird stuff on imgur.