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Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 07:15 PM
Hey, all.

I'm currently playing a Sorcerer/Druid Gnome. I'm thinking about aiming for the Geomancer PrC. I've read the rules, and it looks pretty good, but I was wondering what public opinion about it was? Does the class work well, is it worth taking?

Thanks in advance.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 07:22 PM
Dual caster builds which don't abuse ur-priest, sublime chord or early entry tricks are poor in general. Trying to get into them with sorcerer makes them poorer due to the slower spell progression compared to wizard.

The geomancer stands out as really atrociously bad among the dual casters though, since it's only single progression yet requires you to get into it with dual casting. In return it gives you abilities only useful for melee combat and poor ones at that. Being a dual caster you are of course in a really good position to make use of that ... not.

So in short, the class sucks ... and so I'm sorry to say does a gnome sorcerer/druid. I could see a single level sorcerer dip as a druid ... but you can't even do that without experience penalties. Ugh.

Stevenson
2007-03-24, 07:24 PM
Oh, I love it, but it depends on a few things. Firstly, expect for your play to be unchanged until you hit level 3 in this class, except for the merging of spellcaster types {which is good, gives nice perks}

Ley lines, to be honest, isn't too great unless there's a certain type of area you guys are always battling in.


Drift. Drift is one of the best flavor and game mechanic class feature I've seen. It's a huge amount of choices a level, and you can also use it for some odd interractions. If you think having fur would get you weird look, be sure to invest in a hat of disguise.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 07:27 PM
Haha, thanks for that, Stevenson.

Yeah, PinkysBrain, the build is characterful more than it is optimised. I don't really mind if my character will become Jafar or Gandalf. I'm just having fun with it. What I don't want, though, is for my choices to make me completely useless in the party, which is my main worry.

Assassinfox
2007-03-24, 07:29 PM
The geomancer stands out as really atrociously bad among the dual casters though, since it's only single progression yet requires you to get into it with dual casting.

Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. All this time I thought it had Mystic Theurge progression. My opinion of the PrC has just plummeted. :smallannoyed:

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 07:39 PM
Vampire I think your character has met it's quota of de-optimization ... cut your losses and take an actually good prestige class. Which would be the arcane hierophant.

Fizban
2007-03-24, 07:45 PM
Indeed, the lack of dual casting makes gemancer that much more underpowered. If you can get your DM to let you have two casting progressions, it'd be great. If he needs convincing, point him to any other MT style class besides the MT. Arcane Heirophant, Fochlucan Lyrist, Noctumancer, Anima Mage, Jade Pheonix Mage (kinda), and others all get abilities besides the double casting, and are still relatively underpowered because they lack the high level spells of a single class caster. In particular, the continuation of wild shape for the druid theurge classes just amazes me, "Oh, let's just continue the most powerful non spell ability of the druid, just because he's taking a druid themed class, yay!"

TheOOB
2007-03-24, 07:52 PM
If you where to combine the benefits of the Mystic Theurge and the Geomancer the class would still be underpowered (barring cheese such as the Ur Priest and Sublime Cord), because having access to better spells is almost always better then having access to more spells.

The only real purpose for the geomancer I have found is in gestalt campaigns, in said circumstance the geomancer acually makes some pretty nasty casters.

Ranis
2007-03-24, 08:46 PM
Yeah, PinkysBrain, the build is characterful more than it is optimised.

I would like to applaud you for playing flavor and not optimization.

That said, what book is Arcane Heirophant in?

marjan
2007-03-24, 08:57 PM
If you realy want dual-casting class take arcane hierophant. And there is feat in Complete Arcane that allows you to cast one second level spell at first level (though not that easily) so see if you can convince your DM to count it as being able to cast second level arcane spells.

Assassinfox
2007-03-24, 09:06 PM
That said, what book is Arcane Heirophant in?

Races of the Wild.

Ranis
2007-03-24, 09:12 PM
Races of the Wild.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 09:25 PM
Well, the reason I've gone down this route is the way my character has developed. He started as a sorcerer, and I found him constantly defending a (doomed, as it turned out) wolverine we crossed paths with, so next session I'll be multiclassing into Druid (I assumed that this discussion would take longer, so I said I already had), then I was thinking of his long-term development down the nature root, since his new-found love of nature has had such an affect as to change his alignment from chaotic to neutral (respecting the laws of nature, rather than the arbitrary ones of civilisation). I want to keep developing him in a natural way, but if you think there's a better route (though it's a shame I'll lose drift, which I really liked) then lay it on me.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 09:38 PM
You might try running the Fey Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html) variant the Giant put together by your DM. It has a feat to let you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Druid abilities, which would synergize much better with your Sorcerer levels. The specific feat is Fey Blood, which is 1st-level only, and requires you to know the Sylvan language; but if your DM was okay with it you could explain it as your sorcerer meeting some fey in his journey towards Nature, and learning that it's fey heritage that gives him his sorcery.

edit: As others have suggested, there's also the option of asking the DM to let Geomancer progress both classes. Depending how open to homebrewing the DM is, try:
a) proposing the above feat when you class into Druid. Try asking him to let it include, or to allow another feat to grant, Cha in place of Wis as the relevant ability for skills on the Druid class list.
b) asking for the enhanced Geomancer class.
It's a fair few special privileges, but really, the straight Sorcerer/Druid/Geomancer build would be so weak that these concessions would hardly be unbalancing. You'd end up with a Sorcerer/Druid hybrid with less in the way of MAD thanks to the Fey feat, but no access to the highest levels of either class.

marjan
2007-03-24, 09:52 PM
If you really like the sorceror/druid idea then it would be best to take Arcane Hierophant. Not the best PrC but still better than Geomancer and it keeps to flavour of your character.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 09:52 PM
Even if the geomancer was dual progression it would still be significantly worse than the arcane hierophant ... just take the arcane hierophant and get the natural bond feat.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-24, 10:05 PM
Don't look at Geomancer as a spellcasting class. It's not. It's more along the lines of a feral Dragon Disciple/Acolyte of the Skin/Greenstar Adept. It's a transformative class that happens to advance your spellcasting along the way. If you're the main caster(of either side), avoid it at all costs. However, if you're the buffing guy(eg. Bard), or the secondary tank(eg. Bard, Rogue), it gives you some options(Mostly, the natural attacks would give you extra Sneak Attack chances each round, or even poison).

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 10:13 PM
How would a rogue even qualify? It has dual casting prerequisites ... you have sunk all your resources into being dual caster before you can even qualify. You might suck at casting at that point, but that is nothing compared to how badly you suck at everything else.

Casting is the only way forward at that point, the geomancer just does not present a good way forward. It doesn't go anywhere but down. It's atrocious ... it's a complete and utter waste of paper just like the war priest.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 10:18 PM
Yeah, I'm the main caster, really. There're a couple of secondary casters and a paladin-tank. I'll check out the Arcane Hierophant ASAP. Could someone give me the gist of the flavour of the class, please?

Assassinfox
2007-03-24, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I'm the main caster, really. There're a couple of secondary casters and a paladin-tank. I'll check out the Arcane Hierophant ASAP. Could someone give me the gist of the flavour of the class, please?

Pretty much a nature-focuses Mystic Theurge. Gives divine and arcane progression, and lets you combine your familiar and animal companion.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 10:35 PM
What book is that from?

Assassinfox
2007-03-24, 10:40 PM
Races of the Wild.

Indeed. :smalltongue:

Kosmopolite
2007-03-24, 10:45 PM
That was for Arcane Hierophant. Are they connected? (Sorry for my ignorance).



Also, Ranis I appreciate the applause. I missed your post the first time around.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-24, 11:29 PM
Ok, replace Rogue with Spellthief then. The point stands that the class is really only useful for getting more attacks(plus some "RP-related" benefits), and in that case, you want more damage on said attacks.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 12:24 AM
Yeah, I've taken a look at Arcane Hierophant and it looks really good. Really close to what I'm after: combining the two. It's a shame it doesn't have drift, but that could've been developed more anyway, so I guess it's not really any sort of loss.


So how long do you think I should wait before multiclassing? I'm currently level 3 sorcerer and (will soon be) level 1 druid.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 12:36 AM
Go 3/3, take natural bond at 6th then take another level of sorcerer before going into arcane hierophant. Or in other words ASAP.

You won't be much use to your party for about 3 levels (they are looking for scorching rays and invisibility, you are throwing around magic missiles). I'd ask the DM to allow you to rewrite your third level feat to practiced spellcaster BTW.

Rigeld2
2007-03-25, 10:25 AM
I would like to applaud you for playing flavor and not optimization.
Because really... its impossible to do both.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 10:47 AM
What is natural bond?


Yeah, I didn't really think about what would be most effective. I thought about what race I wanted to be, then I thought about what class I liked, then let the character evolve.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 10:52 AM
It's like practiced spellcaster for your animal companion ... you can add three levels to your effective druid level for your animal companion.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 10:53 AM
What book is it in, please?

Hzurr
2007-03-25, 10:56 AM
Well, the reason I've gone down this route is the way my character has developed.

*raises glass*

props to you, sir


One other thing to remember about the geomancer, is that you're killing people with MATH!

...that's just cool.

kamikasei
2007-03-25, 10:59 AM
What book is it in, please?

Natural Bond is in Complete Adventurer. You can generally look up any feat or class mentioned here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists).


One other thing to remember about the geomancer, is that you're killing people with MATH!

...that's just cool.

I think that's the Geometer.

Stevenson
2007-03-25, 11:01 AM
If you plan to do the fey druid route-then drift is for you, as you can get a fey drift feature at one point.

Ranis
2007-03-25, 11:16 AM
Because really... its impossible to do both.

What I meant by that is that he didn't look at optimization first and flavor second.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 11:20 AM
Cheers, Hzur!


So will Natural Bond still apply to my Companion Familiar when I go for the

arcane hierophant?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 11:27 AM
Stevenson, wildshape alone is better than drift, fey or otherwise ... on top of that the arcane hierophant gives both dual casting progression AND animal companion progression. With all that it's merely a decent prestige class which will make his character able to contribute only very little for at least two levels. This isn't about optimization, geomancer is simply a prestige class which should never be taken outside of gestalt. Geomancer is a gimp in a box, you can't make any other type of character with it.

Hermes, yes it will help your animal companion after you entered arcane hierophant. In fact, for level 6 (assuming you go 3/3 first to avoid more multiclassing XP penalties) and the first couple of levels afterwards your animal companion will probably be your most powerful ability. Give him some barding and some nice magic items so he can enter combat.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 11:34 AM
I'm sorry, I'm pretty new to DnD. I don't understand your last sentence.

kamikasei
2007-03-25, 11:37 AM
I'm sorry, I'm pretty new to DnD. I don't understand your last sentence.

Barding is armor for animals.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 11:45 AM
For the cost see the armor for unusual creatures here :
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 12:02 PM
Ah, no. I think you edited when I was posting. I know what barding is. I don't understand the terms 'gimp' and 'gestalt'. Sorry for the confusion.

kamikasei
2007-03-25, 12:05 PM
Ah, no. I think you edited when I was posting. I know what barding is. I don't understand the terms 'gimp' and 'gestalt'. Sorry for the confusion.

"Gimp" is like "nerf", it basically means "to make something less effective". It carries more of a connotation of "screw someone over", too (nerfing a wizard might mean making some spells less effective, gimping might mean taking away his bonus feats).

"Gestalt" is a variant style of play where characters gain levels in two classes simultaneously, getting the class features of each, and the better of the two when there's overlap. It's described in the d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 12:25 PM
BTW, I was talking about geomancer there ... not the arcane hierophant, which is a very playable prestige class. After you get over the "low" levels.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 12:40 PM
Yeah, great. It is a shame that I won't get drift (flavour-wise), but looking back, it could've been better designed, being primarily for casters. A pre-hensile tail or something would be more useful (for non-combat). Oh well.

I really appreciate all this help.

Btw, are the CAr and CD Practiced Spellcaster the same?

Rigeld2
2007-03-25, 12:46 PM
Btw, are the CAr and CD Practiced Spellcaster the same?
Yes.
123456789

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 12:59 PM
Thanks. Are the numbers something I'm missing? Minimum post size or something?


I don't think the GM will be happy about me retconning my last Feat choice, so it'll have to come later.

Rigeld2
2007-03-25, 01:03 PM
Thanks. Are the numbers something I'm missing? Minimum post size or something?
Yup. Post has to be like 10 characters... something like that.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 01:17 PM
Not including quotes?

Rigeld2
2007-03-25, 01:18 PM
Not including quotes?
Correct.
And it is 10. Just verified.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 01:28 PM
Ah fair enough.


Anyway, back on topic, if I go down this route, I won't be as useless as my original plan would've made me?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 03:04 PM
You get an animal companion as a druid of one level lower, dual casting and wildshape. The next couple of levels you are a bit behind the curve, but after that you should do fine.

I would ask if you can use the PHB2 retraining rules to get practiced spellcaster for sorcerer from your third level feat. It will make your scorching rays a little more potent.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 03:19 PM
What I meant by that is that he didn't look at optimization first and flavor second.
Thats what most optimizers do. They see oh I have this character, I want this flavor, you create the idea. Then you figure out what feats and classes you take that maintain the idea the flavor yet are still good.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 03:20 PM
Note with Arcane Hierophant you will need a bab of 4. That means even with partials you need another level of druid, sorcerer, or mystic theruge after 3/3.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 03:33 PM
He needs 4 levels of sorcerer anyway for spellcasting, I was just suggesting going 3/3 so he wouldn't have experience penalties for 2 more levels.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 03:36 PM
He needs 4 levels of sorcerer anyway for spellcasting, I was just suggesting going 3/3 so he wouldn't have experience penalties for 2 more levels.

Duh, sorry not thinking, forgot for a second about applying a houserule sorcerer to a normal game. Of course you aren't using the houserule.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 03:53 PM
Wait, sorry, I'm not following.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 04:11 PM
Which part?

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 04:22 PM
The house rule and the minimums for the PrC. Sorry, it's just that I'm learning as we talk, and I've gotten a bit muddled.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 04:25 PM
You need 2nd level arcane and divine spellcasting to get into arcane hierophant, so that means sorcerer level 4 and druid level 3. I advised you to go 3/3 first so you would not get anymore levels where you had an experience penalty (neither of the classes are favored for goblin).

Ramza uses a houserule where the sorcerer has the same spell progression as the wizard, so he thought I told you to go 3/3 to immediately get into arcane hierophant ... which is not possible due to other prerequisites of the PrC (BAB+4).

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 04:41 PM
Ah, thanks very much. I knew that when I read it, then I got myself muddled while listening to your advice. Thanks for clarifying (and being so patient).


(if you'll put up with more questions) I was just wondering, can I use Natural Bond to access the alternative animal companions? From the description and title, I would guess not, but I wanted to be sure.

JellyPooga
2007-03-25, 04:45 PM
Ever since I first saw it, I've always liked the flavour of the Geomancer. It's is just a shame that it is such a poor PrC in comparison with others.

IIRC it doesn't stack with any of the Druid abilities and doesn't give dual caster progression (despite needing dual casting to enter it). A possible solution (outside of simply taking a different PrC) would be to give it dual-caster progression and/or allowing it to stack with Druid/Arcane abilities (e.g. Wild Shape or Animal Companion or Familiar). Talk to your DM (or to yourself if you're DM-ing this particular game) and see if you can't arrange a homebrew verison of the Geomancer.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 04:51 PM
I was just wondering, can I use Natural Bond to access the alternative animal companions?
Sure, only your effective druid level matters for that ... at 6th level with natural bond your effective druid level would be 6, if you took an Ape for instance it would be 3 for determining the special powers it would get.

So he would get +2 bonus HD, +2 NA, +1 strengt, +2 bonus tricks and evasion.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-25, 04:55 PM
Ah, great. I was just wondering since it seemed to just apply to an already existing companion.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 05:11 PM
Wait, sorry, I'm not following.

Oh in our games as a houserule we allow sorcerers to get a new level of spells if they have a high enough cha for bonus spells to get 0+ spells at lvl 3, 5, 7, etc (same levels wizards get a new lvl of spells, the principle is similar to how bards get spells but its at a different level), bonus feats at 5,10,15, and 20. Eschew Materials (similar to scribe scroll for wizards) at 1 and 4+skill points to more balance the sorcerer against the wizard.

I forgot for a second that is a house rule we do but has no effect what so ever in your games. I was thinking what I would do in your situation and thus not thinking :smallwink:

---------------------

With a Wizard/Druid Arcane Hierophant till 7th lvl even though you get the spellcasting at 6th lvl due to the bab requirement. Thus another lvl of mystic theurge, druid, or wizard.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-26, 03:50 AM
Okay, thanks very much, everyone. I think I know where I'm going with my character now. Thanks for your patience.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 10:32 AM
Okay, thanks very much, everyone. I think I know where I'm going with my character now. Thanks for your patience.
No problem we will gladly help. Furthermore it made my heart jump someone doing a flavor character first optimization second :smallsmile:

Kosmopolite
2007-03-27, 12:23 PM
Heh, glad to hear it. :)


One other question that's probably obvious to the rest of you: I know you get an XP penalty for your classes being levels apart, but does that also apply to PrC classes, as they are often extensions of the classes you already have?

Thanks again.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 12:44 PM
PRCs never have xp penalties according to the rules.

Kosmopolite
2007-03-27, 02:29 PM
Ah, great. Thanks. Obvious, I guess, but I must've missed it in the PHB.