A petition to keep 3.5 alive

[RattyMcSquid]

This is not just another thread about dndtools.

There are legal issues with posting intellectual property on the Internet. But that is besides this point, and I am not encouraging anybody to download or use anything illegally. I am saying WotC/Hasbro should change the content type of their (older) source material so that posting game content for non-profit non-commercial purposes no longer needlessly have be considered illegal.

It is generally also in their interest to do so. And leaking yellow fluid on fans rarely does anything good.

This thead is about sending a clear signal to WotC/Hasbro about how players feel about their favourite games being slowly forced into "exile".

So, if you agree with what is written in this petition, please sign it:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-dndtools

[Flickerdart]

"Hey company, we know that you just made a new version in an attempt to appeal to us grogs, but instead of buying your new game we'd actually just like to play your old one for free. Please give us access to books we didn't pay for even when the game was being sold. Sincerely, ingrates."

[Averis Vol]

"Hey company, we know that you just made a new version in an attempt to appeal to us grogs, but instead of buying your new game we'd actually just like to play your old one for free. Please give us access to books we didn't pay for even when the game was being sold. Sincerely, ingrates."

I can't say I disagree, but I will say that if they started reprinting old books and maybe started making new books, I would buy them. 5E just doesn't really hold up to 3.5, at least from my perspective, and it looks like they're going down a bad road with it if the banter I hear around here is true. Was 3.5 perfect? well, no. Duh. But it had a much better fanbase than the last two things they came limping to the barn with. From a profitability perspective, it just seems like the best choice, even if they don't put everything online for free.

A side note, I actually don't disagree with WoTC shutting down dnd tools. I'm a little bummed I can't look stuff up while I'm at work now, but owell' it was completely within their rights, and it was basically giving away their stuf for free.

[atemu1234]

"Hey company, we know that you just made a new version in an attempt to appeal to us grogs, but instead of buying your new game we'd actually just like to play your old one for free. Please give us access to books we didn't pay for even when the game was being sold. Sincerely, ingrates."

"Hey WOTC, we loyal customers of your old game wish to continue being able to access that material we bought legally online without you hunting down our sources. Also, we'd like you to continue selling your older game material, as we would purchase them, especially in pdf format. Sincerely, Loyal Customers who don't want to learn a whole new gaming system."

[Flickerdart]

"Hey WOTC, we loyal customers of your old game wish to continue being able to access that material we bought legally online without you hunting down our sources.
If you own the books, why do you need to access them online? Nothing is stopping you from playing the same game you've always played, in exactly the same way you've always played it.

[atemu1234]

If you own the books, why do you need to access them online? Nothing is stopping you from playing the same game you've always played, in exactly the same way you've always played it.

The way I play it is I access it online, because I don't want to carry around fifty tons of material. If they'd made an easy way of accessing it via online or pdf, seeing as they no longer profit off of it anyway, I'd do that. Even if it meant paying for it. Quite frankly, I'm more insulted that they seem to think by shutting down sources of material we like we'll for some reason start playing the new edition they're about to release. They seem to think we are sheep of some sort.

[Khedrac]

"Hey WOTC, we loyal customers of your old game wish to continue being able to access that material we bought legally online without you hunting down our sources. Also, we'd like you to continue selling your older game material, as we would purchase them, especially in pdf format. Sincerely, Loyal Customers who don't want to learn a whole new gaming system."
For legal and authorised PDFs of pretty much all of 3.0 and 3.5 try DND Classics (http://www.dndclassics.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_44702)

[Kelb_Panthera]

easy-ish solution that makes everybody happy: Wizards buys DND Tools for a pittance from whoever actually owns the domain and puts it up on their own website as a handy cross-referencing tool. Maybe restructures it into an app that they can sell for like 5-10 dollars a pop. No copyright infringement, the resource everyone wants is back, WotC makes profits off of material that they're not selling otherwise.

Though, TBH, I'd REALLY like to see 3.x material back in print and available at first party distributers again. I'm still willing to pay $35~ish dollars for a nice hard-cover rules supplement.

[Chester]

easy-ish solution that makes everybody happy: Wizards buys DND Tools for a pittance from whoever actually owns the domain and puts it up on their own website as a handy cross-referencing tool. Maybe restructures it into an app that they can sell for like 5-10 dollars a pop. No copyright infringement, the resource everyone wants is back, WotC makes profits off of material that they're not selling otherwise.

True.

Or an online subscription service. I'd pay a small fee for unlimited access to 3.5 material.

[Phelix-Mu]

easy-ish solution that makes everybody happy: Wizards buys DND Tools for a pittance from whoever actually owns the domain and puts it up on their own website as a handy cross-referencing tool. Maybe restructures it into an app that they can sell for like 5-10 dollars a pop. No copyright infringement, the resource everyone wants is back, WotC makes profits off of material that they're not selling otherwise.

Though, TBH, I'd REALLY like to see 3.x material back in print and available at first party distributers again. I'm still willing to pay $35~ish dollars for a nice hard-cover rules supplement.

Was going to say something, but this basically covers my sentiments concisely and eloquently. Well-said, Kelb.

[Inevitability]

easy-ish solution that makes everybody happy: Wizards buys DND Tools for a pittance from whoever actually owns the domain and puts it up on their own website as a handy cross-referencing tool. Maybe restructures it into an app that they can sell for like 5-10 dollars a pop. No copyright infringement, the resource everyone wants is back, WotC makes profits off of material that they're not selling otherwise.

Thirded. They gave 4e its own database, so why not here?

[Venger]

easy-ish solution that makes everybody happy: Wizards buys DND Tools for a pittance from whoever actually owns the domain and puts it up on their own website as a handy cross-referencing tool. Maybe restructures it into an app that they can sell for like 5-10 dollars a pop. No copyright infringement, the resource everyone wants is back, WotC makes profits off of material that they're not selling otherwise.
That's a great idea, which is how we know wizards will never do it.

hell, they could start a kickstarter and ransom it back to us. we'd probably pay to rescue it anyway.

but no.

they think that cutting off official support to 3.5 will make us play 4e, I mean 5e. because that worked so well in 2008.


Though, TBH, I'd REALLY like to see 3.x material back in print and available at first party distributers again. I'm still willing to pay $35~ish dollars for a nice hard-cover rules supplement.
Why?

Not "how DARE you want to pay for things?" but what precisely is the utility of a paper book over a (moneycosting, legal licensed officially wotc approved permitted etc) pdf of same? I hear this kind of attitude a lot not only here, but regarding books and ebooks in general and want to learn more about the other side.

[Fax Celestis]

For legal and authorised PDFs of pretty much all of 3.0 and 3.5 try DND Classics (http://www.dndclassics.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_44702)

Hey look, exactly what op was asking for! Guess we can put that argument to bed, because the "readily available legal PDF option" is a reality. Either put your money where your mouth is, or be honest about what you're asking for.

[atemu1234]

Hey look, exactly what op was asking for! Guess we can put that argument to bed, because the "readily available legal PDF option" is a reality. Either put your money where your mouth is, or be honest about what you're asking for.

I will, so please stop insinuating those of us complaining about having a handy resource for searching for material are trying to pirate copyrighted material. It's annoying and childish.

[Fax Celestis]

Ten minutes of googling could have brought that to your attention. I'm still unsure what exactly you're asking for if that isn't it.

PS: if you're no longer buying their products, you're not a loyal customer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why?

Not "how DARE you want to pay for things?" but what precisely is the utility of a paper book over a (moneycosting, legal licensed officially wotc approved permitted etc) pdf of same? I hear this kind of attitude a lot not only here, but regarding books and ebooks in general and want to learn more about the other side.

In all honesty, it's partly a taste thing. I just immensely prefer physical books to digital ones. It doesn't hurt that I'm quite skilled in quickly referencing and cross-referencing material and that I note where things are when I write them on my character sheets meaning, for me at least, that a digital version that's not something like D&D tools, with hotlinks everywhere, doesn't save me much, if any, time.

[Phelix-Mu]

Why?

Not "how DARE you want to pay for things?" but what precisely is the utility of a paper book over a (moneycosting, legal licensed officially wotc approved permitted etc) pdf of same? I hear this kind of attitude a lot not only here, but regarding books and ebooks in general and want to learn more about the other side.

Probably just old timers like me wanting to have pretty pictures and pages to flip. I still invest in .pdfs, but books are nice for times when digital is just cumbersome. Those times are increasingly less common, but I still like books.

Also, I don't know how many of you out there are spatial learners, but a concrete, physical copy of a book is much easier for me to memorize than a .pdf. I suspect it's because my brain can properly map a physical page, but has trouble relating to a scrolling file in a reader program.

[atemu1234]

Ten minutes of googling could have brought that to your attention. I'm still unsure what exactly you're asking for if that isn't it.

PS: if you're no longer buying their products, you're not a loyal customer.

If I bought their products, which I then prefer to not have to lug around, I should be able to access them otherwise, and having a resource that I can do a quick google search and find a page number would be very useful. I'd rather not have to dig through the many, many books I have purchased.

[Fax Celestis]

By extension, Pyrex should just provide glass cookware at every kitchen I enter. I bought a complete set, but it's just so cumbersome to lug around everywhere.

[RattyMcSquid]

"Hey company, we know that you just made a new version in an attempt to appeal to us grogs, but instead of buying your new game we'd actually just like to play your old one for free. Please give us access to books we didn't pay for even when the game was being sold. Sincerely, ingrates."

There are people like that, and I agree that you have an argument. However, this is just one argument presented from the other side of the table. Many posters below are making excellent other arguments.

For the majority - though I admit this is speculation - I don't think paying or not paying is an issue. The issue is quality of availability. Like many other types of companies, WotC must make their content easily available and fun to use. Even the most fun gaming system in the world is a "drag" if it's hard to find and use rules/content. This is 2014, quality online availability is not an option. And that is WHY dndtools - and other similar websites - came to exist.

Of course, there are some people who refuse to pay, even small amounts. They expect high quality content freely distributed in best availability. This attitude, I do not agree to, and I don't think it's representative. Speaking for myself, I OWN all the books (which are possible to buy), I just use an online resource for convenience.

Make quality content easily available and players will follow - free or paid services.

[Venger]

In all honesty, it's partly a taste thing. I just immensely prefer physical books to digital ones. It doesn't hurt that I'm quite skilled in quickly referencing and cross-referencing material and that I note where things are when I write them on my character sheets meaning, for me at least, that a digital version that's not something like D&D tools, with hotlinks everywhere, doesn't save me much, if any, time.

I guess I can understand that.

For me, it's little to do with the speed of looking stuff up itself, since I remember page numbers for most of the things I use most frequently, and more to do with space.

The books are pretty big and take up a lot of room. When I'll be deeandeeing really hard, like building an iron chef character or someting, I'm probably going to need to flip through like 6 or 7 books with multiple locations in each one. I live in a tiny apartment and don't have enough space to lay out that many books open without putting them on the floor, which, for stuff this nice, just doesn't really gel for me.

If I need to keep flipping between page 47 and 168 in a book, I don't want to paperclip or weight them since it'll damage the binding, so it's often easier to search in a pdf, especially if they're the ones where you can click on stuff in the ToC and get taken directly to that page. I type at 100+ wpm, so it saves me a ton of time.

But I can understand where you're coming from. I'm no luddite, but I gotta say, the art in spell compendium looks a lot better on the page somehow

[AuraTwilight]

Honestly, I'd have no complaints of Wizards' archived lists had every spell (instead of just the PHB and Spell Compendium) and also a feat list. That's pretty much I used that site for.

[atemu1234]

By extension, Pyrex should just provide glass cookware at every kitchen I enter. I bought a complete set, but it's just so cumbersome to lug around everywhere.

No, by that logic I should be able to put an app from one Iphone to another that I purchase, which I can.

Also, apples to oranges. We're not talking about a product that would cost them money, just stop going after the people making the products accessible. Basically by their logic, you shouldn't be able to use the glassware in the kitchen you walk into, even if it's already there, and will have to lug yours around.

[Phelix-Mu]

@Venger: As I mentioned, I suspect some of the bias is from differences in learning styles. I have both strong verbal and spatial styles, so while I also remember page numbers pretty well, I function even better if I have a spatial map in my head of what that page actually looks like in a physical sense.

Something about the digital image on the screen that doesn't properly trigger that part of my brain that maps spatial objects.

Anyway, it's an interesting distinction, and I'd probably be interested in starting another thread specifically on learning styles and the modern incarnation of the game (and will likely do so tonight if no one has beat me to the punch by then).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Venger
…what precisely is the utility of a paper book over a (moneycosting, legal licensed officially wotc approved permitted etc) pdf of same?

There are those of us who love physical books for their own sake--the experience of riffling through actual pages, the satisfaction of smooth printwork and a smart clean cover. There's an enjoyment to the tangible that can't be experienced any other way.

I have a gaming shelf with my 3.5 books that I use for casual reference, some of which I'll bring along if they're helpful for a game session--if I'm using a vinespawn I'll bring my copy of MMV, that sort of thing. But it's a hybrid approach; there's usually someone at the table with a laptop who can look up references as well. In my experience, this is most useful when I need to check the wording of a spell that a character's about to use.

So PDFs certainly have their uses, in terms of straight reference, but decidedly flat and utilitarian. For actual appreciation of the books--and dare I say, some fleeting sense of wonder and discovery--it's the hardbound copy that still speaks to me.

[Iron Angel]

"Hey company, we know that you just made a new version in an attempt to appeal to us grogs, but instead of buying your new game we'd actually just like to play your old one for free. Please give us access to books we didn't pay for even when the game was being sold. Sincerely, ingrates."

I would LOVE to play 5th, it looks interesting and fun. The problem is that they dont even have all the core rulebooks out for it yet! We have to wait until December for the DMG! I own the 3.5 books but a lot of people don't and can't get those books without paying ludicrous prices on ebay, considering the vast majority of them went out of print LONG ago. Wizard would lose no profit from it. The only thing I can see is that, like you said, they are trying to clean up all the old resources so people HAVE to buy 5th- Which, once again, I would gladly do if they actually relesed all the books.

[Squirrel_Dude]

By extension, Pyrex should just provide glass cookware at every kitchen I enter. I bought a complete set, but it's just so cumbersome to lug around everywhere.Fun facts: Pyrex isn't a company, it's a brand of kitchenware first invented by Corning inc. They don't make it anymore.

Also, that's a poor comparison. A more accurate one would be: Corning (or whoever makes it now) should provide
Pyrex that I can teleport to every kitchen I go to, just like they do with their other brand of glassware, instead of shutting down non-profit services that let me teleport it where I wanted to try and 'encourage' me to buy their upcoming glassware brand.


But hey, I can buy them on .pdf now. So, whatever.

[Venger]

Fun facts: Pyrex isn't a company, it's a brand of kitchenware first invented by Corning inc. They don't make it anymore.

Also, that's a poor comparison. A more accurate one would be: Corning (or whoever makes it now) should provide
Pyrex that I can teleport to every kitchen I go to, just like they do with their other brand of glassware, instead of shutting down non-profit services that let me teleport it where I wanted to try and 'encourage' me to buy their upcoming glassware brand.


But hey, I can buy them on .pdf now. So, whatever.

you have .pdf glassware?

what do you make in it? hotlinks?

[Ninane]

With their choice to abandon what little freedom OGL offered to transition to the even crappier GSL in 4, I sincerely doubt they will ever care enough to do so. It just represents too much of their profits.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Also, I don't know how many of you out there are spatial learners, but a concrete, physical copy of a book is much easier for me to memorize than a .pdf. I suspect it's because my brain can properly map a physical page, but has trouble relating to a scrolling file in a reader program.

I can certainly remember the feel of a page better from a physical book, and whenever I call up a page on a PDF it feels strangely isolated. But like Kelb, I'm good at remembering page numbers, and while I'm probably not as fast as he is, I can usually flip to the right page in a book more quickly than hunting and clicking through a PDF.


Originally Posted by atemu1234
If I bought their products, which I then prefer to not have to lug around, I should be able to access them otherwise….

The purchase of a physical book doesn't automatically entitle you to a PDF copy, not unless that's part of the package up front. It might be nice, but it's hardly an obligation on the publisher's part.


Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
Honestly, I'd have no complaints of Wizards' archived lists had every spell (instead of just the PHB and Spell Compendium) and also a feat list.

Do you mean the feat index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)? With three thousand feats it's pretty comprehensive.


Originally Posted by Venger
what do you make in it? hotlinks?

Ba-doom-boom.

:smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

I can certainly remember the feel of a page better from a physical book, and whenever I call up a page on a PDF it feels strangely isolated. But like Kelb, I'm good at remembering page numbers, and while I'm probably not as fast as he is, I can usually flip to the right page in a book more quickly than hunting and clicking through a PDF.



The purchase of a physical book doesn't automatically entitle you to a PDF copy, not unless that's part of the package up front. It might be nice, but it's hardly an obligation on the publisher's part.



Do you mean the feat index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)? With three thousand feats it's pretty comprehensive.



Ba-doom-boom.

:smalltongue:

No one seems willing to adress the second issue I brought up; I don't want to have to bookdive to find what I'm looking for, dndtools was useful for a page number and book name.

[Myrddin0001]

{scrubbed}

[atemu1234]

{scrubbed}

And there goes this thread.

[Divayth Fyr]

No one seems willing to adress the second issue I brought up; I don't want to have to bookdive to find what I'm looking for, dndtools was useful for a page number and book name.
The feat list posted by Palanan has exactly that - it tells which sourcebook the feat comes from and on which page it is printed. Ditto for the spell index and class indexes.

[Flickerdart]

The feat list posted by Palanan has exactly that - it tells which sourcebook the feat comes from and on which page it is printed. Ditto for the spell index and class indexes.
Plus there's a monster index which you can sort by handy things like Type and Size. Need a Large Humanoid for shenanigans? No problem.

[atemu1234]

Plus there's a monster index which you can sort by handy things like Type and Size. Need a Large Humanoid for shenanigans? No problem.

Ok, this is more useful to me. Wizards, don't ruin this one!

[Verte]

Ok, I just think this is silly, for a couple reasons.

1. WotC is reprinting 3.5 books - see the Spell Compendium (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Edition-Dungeons-Compendium-Accessory/dp/0786964480/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1E54Y2AR4E8ZXMQZ9EBV), the DMG (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Dungeons-Dragons-Dungeon-Masters/dp/0786962453/ref=pd_cp_b_2), the Monster Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Dungeons-Dragons-Monster-Manual/dp/0786962445/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JFWAQD2TDRHA6HK7BV2), and the Players Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-3-5-Players-Handbook/dp/0786962461/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JFWAQD2TDRHA6HK7BV2).

2. They have the PDFs of D&D 3.5 books here, at dndclassics.com (http://www.dndclassics.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_44702).

3. A random petition isn't going to do much to dissuade WotC from suing dndtools. I get petition messages like this all the time, usually in the form of "Tell [Politician A] that he is totally wrong about [Issue B]! Also, he smells!" That in of itself discourages me from signing a petition I don't feel strongly about, since I don't know if I will get dozens of messages about random petitions. Yes, it might show that suing a website maintained by hobbyists isn't a great PR move*, but I don't think it will discourage them in any way.

So, it would appear that the main reason places like dndtools are considered a threat by WotC is because they actually are selling 3.5 books, and may be planning to reprint more beyond the five they have already reprinted.

*For some people, I think the only way they would have a non-negative opinion of WotC was if they mailed cash to everyone who had ever bought a book from them.

[RattyMcSquid]

Plus there's a monster index which you can sort by handy things like Type and Size. Need a Large Humanoid for shenanigans? No problem.

These are very inconvenient to use. Hence, it's not much used. And hard to find. I would love to have a look at the google statistics and compare.

And how long will it stay there given how 3.5 support is shut down and cancelled? Even if not removed, will it be updated or improved (for use)?

[Fax Celestis]

These are very inconvenient to use. Hence, it's not much used. And hard to find. I would love to have a look at the google statistics and compare.

And how long will it stay there given how 3.5 support is shut down and cancelled? Even if not removed, will it be updated or improved (for use)?

It's been there since....MM-II? So a long time.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MageOfTheMarsh
…[WotC] actually are selling 3.5 books, and may be planning to reprint more beyond the five they have already reprinted.

Whether or not Wizards will reprint any more of the 3.5 run is worth its own thread. I certainly hope so, for a number of reasons, but at this point I'm not sure if they're seriously considering it.


Originally Posted by RattyMcSquid
These are very inconvenient to use. Hence, it's not much used. And hard to find.

That feat index has been my resource of choice for some years now. It's easy to find, even with the archive shift, and it's hard to imagine anything simpler to use.

The spell index is a different story, since it's not nearly as comprehensive--but many of these spells have long and complex genealogies, so I can understand why that's a project they'd rather not dive into.

[RattyMcSquid]

Ok, I just think this is silly, for a couple reasons.

1. WotC is reprinting 3.5 books - see the Spell Compendium (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Edition-Dungeons-Compendium-Accessory/dp/0786964480/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1E54Y2AR4E8ZXMQZ9EBV), the DMG (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Dungeons-Dragons-Dungeon-Masters/dp/0786962453/ref=pd_cp_b_2), the Monster Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Dungeons-Dragons-Monster-Manual/dp/0786962445/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JFWAQD2TDRHA6HK7BV2), and the Players Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-3-5-Players-Handbook/dp/0786962461/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JFWAQD2TDRHA6HK7BV2).

2. They have the PDFs of D&D 3.5 books here, at dndclassics.com (http://www.dndclassics.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_44702).

3. A random petition isn't going to do much to dissuade WotC from suing dndtools. I get petition messages like this all the time, usually in the form of "Tell [Politician A] that he is totally wrong about [Issue B]! Also, he smells!" That in of itself discourages me from signing a petition I don't feel strongly about, since I don't know if I will get dozens of messages about random petitions. Yes, it might show that suing a website maintained by hobbyists isn't a great PR move*, but I don't think it will discourage them in any way.

So, it would appear that the main reason places like dndtools are considered a threat by WotC is because they actually are selling 3.5 books, and may be planning to reprint more beyond the five they have already reprinted.

*For some people, I think the only way they would have a non-negative opinion of WotC was if they mailed cash to everyone who had ever bought a book from them.

Internet petitions will not change their opinion. Most likely.

But what do you suggest? Just give up?

You also have a point regarding printing of older 3.5 books. But actually, reprinting old books and having a great online D&D 3.5 web-reference is not mutually exclusive.

I would also make the claim that one of the reasons why 3.5 books are still reprinted is because there is an active community. Who would even know all these books exists without people referring to lists and other information about D&D?

I am against stealing by illegally downloading books. It's the same as stealing them in the store. But it's not an "open and shut" case where the limit for sharing information online is exactly drawn. Legally, dndtools, went too far (?). But that is not the question. The question is: should WotC do something different than closing down websites obviously made for non-commercial fan usage by non-paid fans?

Many companies are doing these mistakes. Sometimes, third party websites and fan projects should be stopped because it may harm the companies. But in this case? I just don't see it. And the WotC/Hasbro business people seem not be be able to discern friend from foe.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

[we] wish to continue being able to access that material we bought legally online without you hunting down our sources.

If you're claiming that you frequented D&D tools and never used it to look at something you didn't legally own in another format, then frankly I don't believe you.

I'm sure that there are some DnD tools users out there that either literally have every book referenced on the site or felt guilty and backed out whenever they stumbled upon something from a book they don't own, but they're a statistically irrelevent minority.

[RattyMcSquid]

The spell index is a different story, since it's not nearly as comprehensive--but many of these spells have long and complex genealogies, so I can understand why that's a project they'd rather not dive into.

A good spell list was made, by dndtools. Why not ask to use theirs?

Reinventing the wheel is not cost-effective. And if they can't or won't make something better, well, someone will.

[atemu1234]

If you're claiming that you frequented D&D tools and never used it to look at something you didn't legally own in another format, then frankly I don't believe you.

I'm sure that there are some DnD tools users out there that either literally have every book referenced on the site or felt guilty and backed out whenever they stumbled upon something from a book they don't own, but they're a statistically irrelevent minority.

Yes, shocking as it may be, I used it honestly.

[Threadnaught]

If you're claiming that you frequented D&D tools and never used it to look at something you didn't legally own in another format, then frankly I don't believe you.

I'm sure that there are some DnD tools users out there that either literally have every book referenced on the site or felt guilty and backed out whenever they stumbled upon something from a book they don't own, but they're a statistically irrelevent minority.

Not quite the opposite of Atemu, but I liked to use it to reference several famous items I'd heard of, but not seen in books I own to discover which books they're in when people didn't list a source.

Also I had an easier time counting all the Maneouvers and Stances in ToB using DnD tools, than the book itself, which was helpful for commissioning a way to easily track Maneuvers and Stances. I have used it to reference RoS since September, since I bought and paid for it in July and it should've arrived between July and August.
Now that ******* Druid and I can no longer split resources and find ourselves on even ground, we both need to have everything, or one of us is missing out.

[Telok]

I thiught it would have been good for WotC to buy the site off the owner and stick a minor subscription fee on it. It was useful, saved me a lot of time flipping pages to look up spells.

[Psyren]

A good spell list was made, by dndtools. Why not ask to use theirs?

Quite simply, because they didn't ask permission before creating that list. It wasn't theirs to make, no matter how convenient it may have been. (I also somewhat doubt that the guy was mailing WotC a check for the ad-revenue hosting their content was getting him, nor will he do so now.)

I will however say that I personally don't see why they don't create a replacement of their own, even if it is behind a paywall or some other cumbersome restriction. But regardless, it's still their content.

[Kurald Galain]

This does remind me of the old TSR days (They Sue Regularly) where every D&D-related site had disclaimers that its content wasn't for D&D honestly, it was just for any ol' generic RPG that happened to have six ability scores, five saving throws, and THAC0... :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Do you mean the feat index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)? With three thousand feats it's pretty comprehensive.
Actually it's not. However, if you add the DragonDex feat index (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/feats.html) you're pretty good for the most of D&D 3.5.

[Divayth Fyr]

Quite simply, because they didn't ask permission before creating that list. It wasn't theirs to make, no matter how convenient it may have been. (I also somewhat doubt that the guy was mailing WotC a check for the ad-revenue hosting their content was getting him, nor will he do so now.)
I doubt WotC would do anything (heck, I'm unsure if they'd be able to really do anything) if Dndtools stopped at creating lists for spells, feats, classes and whatever else you can think of.

Adding full writeups of said things was sure to cause problems sooner or late, and anyone who thought nothing will happen was either an optimist or deceiving himself.

[atemu1234]

I doubt WotC would do anything (heck, I'm unsure if they'd be able to really do anything) if Dndtools stopped at creating lists for spells, feats, classes and whatever else you can think of.

Adding full writeups of said things was sure to cause problems sooner or late, and anyone who thought nothing will happen was either an optimist or deceiving himself.

I was kind of both, I would like to see an index website in future, though.

[Knaight]

Why?

Not "how DARE you want to pay for things?" but what precisely is the utility of a paper book over a (moneycosting, legal licensed officially wotc approved permitted etc) pdf of same? I hear this kind of attitude a lot not only here, but regarding books and ebooks in general and want to learn more about the other side.

The big thing for me is that the I can flip through them much faster, and the reflected light off a page is generally preferable to a screen for longer documents. I'll read forum posts, and I'll happily read 10-20 page academic papers from a screen, but beyond that it just gets arduous and I favor paper.

[HyperDunkBarkly]

If you own the books, why do you need to access them online? Nothing is stopping you from playing the same game you've always played, in exactly the same way you've always played it.

fabulously organized databases.

seriously, if a pile of ebooks were even HALF as comprehensive and easy to sort through as dndtools is I'd use them.

[Invader]

I won't buy PDFs until I can add bookmarks to Adobe reader for Apple devices.

Your move Adobe...


I agree with everyone else though, I'd happily pay a fairly sizable amount just for access to a site as comprehensive and searchable as dnd tools.

[ericgrau]

I'm surprised they didn't shut it down sooner. What you can do is buy PDF, ctrl-F PDF. Yay. There's even a way to search multiple PDFs at once.

Even PDFs are already fairly open to piracy, but at least the entire library doesn't tend to get pirated in a single place.

[Venger]

There's even a way to search multiple PDFs at once.

"What sorcery is this?" (http://www.loony-archivist.com/gargs/goliath.jpg)

[ericgrau]

http://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/how-to-search-for-text-inside-multiple-pdf-files-at-once/

And I had no idea how before I did a 30 second google.

[Elkad]

Owning all the PDFs/books does not compare to doing complex queries like "wizard, 2nd level, necromancy, range:medium, exclude 3.0 books and Eberron books" and having a list spit out at you.

If they built a searchable hyper-linked database and charged $50/year to access it, people would fork over money like mad.

[Flickerdart]

If they built a searchable hyper-linked database and charged $50/year to access it, people would fork over money like mad.
Building a searchable hyperlinked database for literally tens of thousands of items isn't free, and you vastly overestimate how many people actually care about this.

[eggynack]

Building a searchable hyperlinked database for literally tens of thousands of items isn't free, and you vastly overestimate how many people actually care about this.
Whether a good number of people would buy it at a given price is up for debate, but given the existence of dndtools, which was being run as a non-profit, actually getting access to such a database likely would be pretty close to free. I mean, maintenance is a thing, but they could probably get away with something as simple as a letter like, "Keep doing what you're doing, but charge money and give us that money."

[Venger]

Building a searchable hyperlinked database for literally tens of thousands of items isn't free, and you vastly overestimate how many people actually care about this.

while it might not've been free for dndtools, it would be for wotc since the site was done already, all they'd need to do is copy and paste it. they already have plenty of hosting space, so it's not like it'd have cost them anything extra, they just chose not to do it.

because pissing everybody off is a great way to make them buy your stuff

[Elkad]

Building a searchable hyperlinked database for literally tens of thousands of items isn't free, and you vastly overestimate how many people actually care about this.

The site that is no more did it for free, as did a bunch of earlier sites.
The legal SRD sites are free.
The android app is free, no matter which version of the database you load.
All volunteer work.
Hell, the community would jump at the chance to do it legally.

[Roland St. Jude]

This is not just another thread about dndtools....

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-dndtoolsSheriff: This is not a thread about the thing but...sign this petition to save the thing? Not fooled.

Stop making threads on this issue. And by "this issue," I mean anything related to the aforementioned site, similar sites, the legal issues surrounding them, etc. Give the issue the widest possible berth.