Questions about breaking through walls

[Iron Angel]

My DM has never had a dungeoncrasher and I've never been one. This is new territory for both of us, and the way we've generally been ruling it reults in me smashing through walls left and right. I want to make sure I'm not ruining my DM's beautiful dungeons with my cannonballing unduly.

First, my character. Warforged, Barbarian 4, Fighter 2 with Dungeoncrasher, Warforged Juggernaut 2. Adamantine body, and +2 adamantine greataxe refluffed as a hammer instead. I have the Destructive Rage feat. My approximate weight is 450 lbs (204 kg in metrics).

A total addition of bonuses to destroying objects:
+8 from Destructive Rage (only while raging)
+5 from Dungeoncrasher
+5/+8 from Strength (depending on if I am raging)
+2 from Warforged Juggernaut class levels

For the purposes of this exercise, we will assume the wall I am trying to go through is stone, 6" thick. This wall would have 90 health and 8 hardness.

So now a few questions:
1: Which of these bonuses apply to going through the wall by simply running into it like a bulldozer?
2: Which of these bonuses apply to breaking down a wall by striking it with my weapon?
3: How would the DC for bulldozing through it with my body work? What would the DC be, and what would the check be? Penalties and bonuses?
4: If I hit the wall with my weapon and break through, how big is the resultant hole?
5: If hitting the object with my weapon, do these bonuses apply to the attack roll? The damage roll? Neither? Both?

I'll post more questions as I think of them. I just want to be sure I'm working within the rules. If you know of any articles that would help explain these things, I'd like those too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...... I think you've completely misunderstood dungeoncrasher.

The ACF allows you to press foes into solid walls. It doesn't explicitly allow you to do any damage to the wall itself. Trying to smash through a wall with your shoulder is probably equivalent to either a strength check to break the object or an unarmed strike against the wall. It wouldn't be illogical to allow the extra damage from dungeoncrasher to apply but it's not RAW.

According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) table the break DC for a wall such as you've described is probably 35. If you actually meant a solid stone wall though, that's 50 or 60.

[AvatarVecna]

Slight nitpick, Kelb: the numbers you're quoting are for the typical thickness of walls made from those materials. Now it looks like, by RAW, those numbers are the same no matter the actual thickness of the wall in question, but as a DM, I'd probably adjust the DC and HP of a masonry wall that's half as thick as normal, and if he was talking about a solid stone wall, I'd almost certainly make the DC much easier, considering how much different there is between 6 inches of solid stone wall and the 3-5 ft (36-60 in) of solid stone wall assumed in that link.

EDIT: Also, most walls can either be damaged to "death" (that is, doing enough damage after hardness to break through), or they can be knocked down/aside/whatever by a high enough Str check. In the latter case, Dungeoncrasher gives a bonus to Str checks to break things, specifically mentioning walls as a viable target; in the former case, I'd probably allow a Dungeoncrasher to add their bull rush damage bonus to their damage to break down the wall, although it's certainly not RAW.

EDIT 2: Right! OP still has questions to answer.

Alright, you can either try to break down the wall by slamming into it, or by hacking it to pieces with your weapons! I'm just gonna investigate the first one to see how well it goes.

You definitely add your Str mod, Destructive Rage, and Dungeoncrasher bonus together for breaking down walls, so that's +21 right there. However, I don't think that, by RAW, you can add your Juggernaut level; you definitely add it when bull rushing a target, but you can't target a wall for your bull rush; the bonus also applies when breaking down doors, but says nothing about walls. RAI, I'd probably allow it, but it's not RAW, so let's ignore it for now.

A 1ft thick masonry wall (which has the stats you described) has a break DC of 35, requiring a 14 for you to break it. However, you were trying to break down a 6in thick masonry wall, which I would rule has a lower break DC. I've even got a precedent to quote for that ruling: both wood and paper are presented as possible things to break, and a paper wall is just a really thin wood wall. Thus, the thinner the material is, the easier it is to break down, and vice versa. I'd probably say the DC is 30, but that's just me. In that case, you now need a 9 to break it down, assuming the DM didn't give you your Juggernaut bonus. If they're allowing the Juggernaut bonus to apply, then you need a 7 on the die to break down such a wall. Either way, the roll required is low enough that, if circumstances allow you to, you could take 10 to break down the wall.

[AvatarVecna]

As for using your weapons on the wall, the first thing is the same as before: it's not as thick, so it's not as hard to "kill". In fact, here, it's easier: half the thickness, half the HP. I'm sure there's a rule somewhere for it, but that's how I'd rule it in a pinch.

Secondly, this is an attack roll, not a Str check, so you don't get Destructive Rage or Dungeoncrasher Str check bonuses...I think. It's possible I'm wrong about this, but that' my recollection.

Thirdly, I don't think Dungeoncrasher 2 can do enough damage with just a bull rush to take down the wall in one blow. Unless, of course, you have pounce...(glances at Barbarian levels). Fortunately for you, there's tons of ways to increase your damage, especially since you're focusing on charging. Power Attack, multiple attacks, and charging go well together, and if you add on your Dungeoncrasher damage, you could certainly take down that wall, provided you had pounce. If you don't have that ACF, convince your DM to let you retrain to it; it's a simple, easy step to take towards the path of total DPR domination.

Now, you asked how big the hole would be if you broke the wall down in either way. Turns out, it looks like it would be the same size: if you break or destroy the wall, the section you destroyed is a 10ft by 10ft square of wall...at least, that's the area the HP total is for.

[Iron Angel]

I was actually going by the "hp per inch of thickness" provided in the SRD.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hardness#Table:_Substance_Hardness_and_Hit_Points

Six inches of stone would have 90 health, because its 15 per inch. 15*6=90.

What I have been doing is I go in one side of the wall and out the other, Kool-Aid Man style, to catch foes unprepared. I do have pounce, its almost necessary for any barbarian who wants to stay relevant past level 10.

So do you think a DC-to-HP ratio would be a good place to start? Weaker materials have less health so you'd get a lower DC that way. From the figures you've given it would seem to be a +1DC per 3 HP the wall has. A 30 health wall has a DC of 10, and that would probably be a little less than a foot thick of ice or something, which sounds about right, whereas a 400 health wall has a dc of "too high" which would accurately reflect something like a foot of Adamantine.

So basically, I roll the strength check, and multiply the result by 3, and thats how much damage I do to the wall. If its enough to go all the way through, then I get to be the Kool Aid Man, if its not, I just damage the wall and stop.

I'm 450 pounds of adamantine charging full steam. It would take a hell of a lot to actually stop something like that when it hits it, but I'd like a system in place so the DM doesnt feel like I'm just this unstoppable terror filling his dungeon with holes.

[AvatarVecna]

Ah, I was wondering where your figures were coming from. D&D Wiki can sometimes be reliable, but from what I've seen, people generally don't consider it to be a good source for core rules, particularly compared to the d20srd and dndtools (well, it used to be considered a good source). From what it looks like, the D&D Wiki is using a "HP/in of thickness" rule to clarify the DC and HP in situations where they weren't particularly clear by RAW.

Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that's not an official 3.5 rule, so I can't really recommend assuming it to be true unless your DM agrees to use it. Kelb provided a link upthread to the d20srd's official rules on walls break DCs, hardness, and HP. I recommend using that as the basis, and working with your DM to extrapolate from there.

Now, even though it's not 1st party (I think), the "HP/in of thickness" rule is still a really good one for making sure you've got the right HP amount. Furthermore, while the RAW of break DCs says it's a constant DC for a wall made of X material, I'd say a DC to HP ratio would be a good way to estimate how tough it would be. My only word of caution: it's very easy to do lots of HP damage; it's hard for most characters to bust down a wall with sheer strength (via a strength check), simply because the DCs are so high. A 1 ft thick brick wall requires a DC 35 check; you only make such a check about 1/4 of the time, and you specialize in breaking through walls. But while the wizard couldn't break through the wall with sheer strength (even after polymorph shenanigans, I imagine), they could certainly do enough damage to destroy it. And an ubercharger would also definitely do enough damage.

There's also edge cases in RAW that are amusing to watch play out; I once trapped my players in a maze made of magically-reinforced paper: each wall was paper thin, required a 21 Str check to break down, and had 51 HP. Isn't RAW fun sometimes?

As for you being 450 pounds of adamantine, it's like the old question: "which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?" They're both a pound, so the material is less than important. So let's say your character is trying to bust through a solid stone wall 6 inches thick. That wall section has a total volume of 86400 cubic inches of stone. If we assume that it's a granite wall (density of .1 lbs/cubic in), the section of the wall that you're charging into weighs about 8640 lbs. To clarify, you weigh almost 500 lbs...not even a quarter of a ton. It outweighs you. By a lot. And that's just the 6 in thick stone wall. The stone walls in the SRD link Kelb provided aren't 6 inches thick; they average around 3 feet thick. So, instead of weighing roughly 4.25 tons, they weigh roughly 26 tons.

To make a comparison, you trying to bust your way through a 6 inch stone wall is about as fantastical a thing as a person snapping their fingers and throwing a fireball in real life; neither one is happening, and both are equally ludicrous. Your weight doesn't matter for busting down the wall, only the Strength stat that your weight vaguely translates to in-game. As it is, you can easily bust down a wall with sheer strength; you could also ubercharge it to dust. Ultimately, it's up to you how you want to take down the wall.

I'll end on a note of warning: don't make a habit of turning your DM's dungeon into swiss cheese; sure, it'll be fine the first few times, but two many destroyed walls, and, well... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)

[Necroticplague]

Ah, I was wondering where your figures were coming from. D&D Wiki can sometimes be reliable, but from what I've seen, people generally don't consider it to be a good source for core rules, particularly compared to the d20srd and dndtools (well, it used to be considered a good source). From what it looks like, the D&D Wiki is using a "HP/in of thickness" rule to clarify the DC and HP in situations where they weren't particularly clear by RAW.

From what I've seen, the only reason its considered unreliable is that it doesn't tag its homebrew very well. As per the HP/thickness table, the d20srd actually uses pretty much the same one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm).

To answer the Op a bit more Directly: Trying to smash through a wall kool-aid man style, and trying to smash it all in one go with your weapon, are mechanically identical actions. You'd only get your Warforged Charger bonus against doors, but everything else stacks. The section I linked to earlier has a table for various DCs to break things down. Assuming most walls are a foot of reinforced masonry, you need to roll a 14 to break through.

Answer to 4:By default, since the stats for stone are for a square of it, 5"x5"x(however many inches of HP damage you've done). If done by breaking, its 5"x5"x(however thick the table says you broke)

5:All those bonuses (except for the Stregnth) only apply to STR rolls to break things. They wouldn't help a normal attack against the wall at all. You weapon means you can ignore hardness, and you could pretty freely PA (AC for a square is 5), but you couldn't get all those bonuses to the attack or the damage roll.

[Venger]

To answer the Op a bit more Directly: Trying to smash through a wall kool-aid man style, and trying to smash it all in one go with your weapon, are mechanically identical actions.

warforged juggernaut's art depicts Battering Ram doing exactly that (http://eberronunlimited.wdfiles.com/local--files/warforged-juggernaut/WarforgedJuggernaut.jpg)

you can see he's not following through from a powerful blow, or shoulder barging the door or anything, he just walks purposefully forward and the door simply explodes before him out of fear due to his legendary hatred of doors.

[AvatarVecna]

Answer to 4:By default, since the stats for stone are for a square of it, 5"x5"x(however many inches of HP damage you've done). If done by breaking, its 5"x5"x(however thick the table says you broke)

That is incorrect. Per the SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) Kelb provided, we can see that the HP column has a note attached; said note says that the HP indicated for each type of wall are per 10 ft by 10 ft square.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That is incorrect. Per the SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) Kelb provided, we can see that the HP column has a note attached; said note says that the HP indicated for each type of wall are per 10 ft by 10 ft square.

Yeah. The hp/inch thickness is actually a thing too. It's located here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm) third table down. Stone is 15hp per inch of thickness though that's for objects not necessarily walls. The stone wall being described in the dungeon structure stuff is 10' long X 10' wide X 5' thick. It really helps to read the entries.

[Iron Angel]

warforged juggernaut's art depicts Battering Ram doing exactly that (http://eberronunlimited.wdfiles.com/local--files/warforged-juggernaut/WarforgedJuggernaut.jpg)

you can see he's not following through from a powerful blow, or shoulder barging the door or anything, he just walks purposefully forward and the door simply explodes before him out of fear due to his legendary hatred of doors.

You are quickly becoming my favorite person on this forum.

[Venger]

You are quickly becoming my favorite person on this forum.

glad to hear it.

[Iron Angel]

So let's say your character is trying to bust through a solid stone wall 6 inches thick. That wall section has a total volume of 86400 cubic inches of stone. If we assume that it's a granite wall (density of .1 lbs/cubic in), the section of the wall that you're charging into weighs about 8640 lbs. To clarify, you weigh almost 500 lbs...not even a quarter of a ton. It outweighs you. By a lot. And that's just the 6 in thick stone wall. The stone walls in the SRD link Kelb provided aren't 6 inches thick; they average around 3 feet thick. So, instead of weighing roughly 4.25 tons, they weigh roughly 26 tons.

To make a comparison, you trying to bust your way through a 6 inch stone wall is about as fantastical a thing as a person snapping their fingers and throwing a fireball in real life; neither one is happening, and both are equally ludicrous. Your weight doesn't matter for busting down the wall, only the Strength stat that your weight vaguely translates to in-game. As it is, you can easily bust down a wall with sheer strength; you could also ubercharge it to dust. Ultimately, it's up to you how you want to take down the wall.

I'll end on a note of warning: don't make a habit of turning your DM's dungeon into swiss cheese; sure, it'll be fine the first few times, but two many destroyed walls, and, well... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)

Point taken.

[torrasque666]

...... I think you've completely misunderstood dungeoncrasher.

The ACF allows you to press foes into solid walls. It doesn't explicitly allow you to do any damage to the wall itself. Trying to smash through a wall with your shoulder is probably equivalent to either a strength check to break the object or an unarmed strike against the wall. It wouldn't be illogical to allow the extra damage from dungeoncrasher to apply but it's not RAW.

According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) table the break DC for a wall such as you've described is probably 35. If you actually meant a solid stone wall though, that's 50 or 60.

Have you actually read Dungeoncrasher? It actually does give a bonus to smashing stuff.
Replaces: If you select this alternative class feature,you do not gain the fi ghter bonus feats at 2nd level and
at 6th level.
Benefit: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing
through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd
level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to
your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain
a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or
similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefi t when making a
bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall
or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your
momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount
of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your
Strength bonus (if any).
At 6th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps
increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull
rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points +
three times your Strength bonus.

So he's got that much right at least.

[AvatarVecna]

Have you actually read Dungeoncrasher? It actually does give a bonus to smashing stuff.

So he's got that much right at least.

I believe that Kelb was originally protesting adding the bull rush damage to the damage one does to the wall; it makes sense, but it's not RAW. He did, however, miss the straight bonus to Str checks to break stuff down, which I believe I mentioned in a post somewhere upthread.

[torrasque666]

I believe that Kelb was originally protesting adding the bull rush damage to the damage one does to the wall; it makes sense, but it's not RAW. He did, however, miss the straight bonus to Str checks to break stuff down, which I believe I mentioned in a post somewhere upthread.
so you did. its late, and i should try to read the threads more carefully.

[AvatarVecna]

so you did. its late, and i should try to read the threads more carefully.

It's a lot of text to go through; I tend to go on a bit at times...