whats the point on full paladin?

[LucianoAr]

im about to hit lvl 7 on a paladin of vengeance and, sincerely, it looks like a joke. the only thing i look forward too after getting the lvl 6 aura is haste on lvl 9, and thats about it, every single ability sucks big **** after that.

if i HIT on an opp attack then i can chase the target half my speed. yeah, like that is useful ever.
anti fear aura. meh
extra d8 on attacks. ok i guess.
reaction to attack when they attack me. ok, this is kind of good, but seriously, a lvl 15 ability...

what could i multiclass into? maybe fighter to get action surge? perhaps barbarian to get rages?

[Safety Sword]

... Paladin Ability rant...

what could i multiclass into? maybe fighter to get action surge? perhaps barbarian to get rages?

Yes. You could.

[MaxWilson]

Multiclass into Warlock (Great Old One) and look forward to creating some thralls! You can turn anyone into your permanent slave, no save, if you can just manage to catch them while they're asleep.

[Slipperychicken]

Multiclass into Warlock (Great Old One) and look forward to creating some thralls! You can turn anyone into your permanent slave, no save, if you can just manage to catch them while they're asleep.

You can only maintain one at a time, pretty much anything is screwed if you catch it sleeping, and I'd hesitate to equate the charmed condition to slavery.


A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.

The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.


It just means the target is basically your friend and won't try to kill you.

[MadBear]

every single ability sucks big **** after that.

Funny, I saw you're list and it's exactly what I'm excited for. I'm currently level 5, and love the abilities my vengeance paladin gets. Dimension door + sentinel + mage killer means that magic users will fear me when I'm near. Later Hold monster is useful to keep an enemy in place (sure full spell casters do it better, but I get it for free so there's always times where it's useful).

Cleansing touch makes you almost impossible to stick a condition on.

Also lay on hands gets better every level (5hp to be exact). I mean who doesn't wanna have an on demand 100hp heal, that can also cure poisons and diseases.

Also raise dead isn't my main characters forte, but when the cleric goes down, it's nice to have.

I wouldn't compare any of this to doing carnal things with phallic body parts.

[Eslin]

im about to hit lvl 7 on a paladin of vengeance and, sincerely, it looks like a joke. the only thing i look forward too after getting the lvl 6 aura is haste on lvl 9, and thats about it, every single ability sucks big **** after that.

if i HIT on an opp attack then i can chase the target half my speed. yeah, like that is useful ever.
anti fear aura. meh
extra d8 on attacks. ok i guess.
reaction to attack when they attack me. ok, this is kind of good, but seriously, a lvl 15 ability...

what could i multiclass into? maybe fighter to get action surge? perhaps barbarian to get rages?
Half your class is spells - aside from ok features like 1d8 damage on hit (which is an extra 4d8 damage per turn if your attacks are hitting, quite nice) what you're mostly getting is more and higher levelled spells.


Multiclass into Warlock (Great Old One) and look forward to creating some thralls! You can turn anyone into your permanent slave, no save, if you can just manage to catch them while they're asleep.
I know that's what the text on create thrall implies, but all it does is apply the charmed condition. It doesn't create a thrall, just makes one guy like you slightly more.

[MaxWilson]

I know that's what the text on create thrall implies, but all it does is apply the charmed condition. It doesn't create a thrall, just makes one guy like you slightly more.

Hmmm... that is an... unfortunate oversight. You're correct. Downgrading this ability to "lame in RAW, awesome in RAI."

[Eslin]

Hmmm... that is an... unfortunate oversight. You're correct. Downgrading this ability to "lame in RAW, awesome in RAI."

Yep. The concept is flavourful and useful sounding, but they forgot charm got turned into advantage on charisma checks. Ask your DM if he can change it to domination or at least permanent suggestion.

[silveralen]

Anyways, back on topic, it isn't amazing but some abilities do pay off. The lvl 11 ability is nice if you can grab additional attacks (haste and polearm master being the obvious ones). The larger aura radius is another big one. The next to last vengeance ability is great for that BBEG.

But yeah, I feel like paladin does drop off especially steeply in the last few levels. Flying for an hour is cool, but paladin 6/sorcerer 14 basically gets a better lvl 20 capstone.

[Gwendol]

Paladins are awesome in this edition! They can really lay down the hurt. Check out the Nova thread for some inspiration.

[Eslin]

It's also very worth it for an oathbreaker - the level 15 resistance to physical damage is pretty useful, and their higher level spells like animate dead and contagion are quite good.

[Scirocco]

It's also very worth it for an oathbreaker - the level 15 resistance to physical damage is pretty useful, and their higher level spells like animate dead and contagion are quite good.

Oathbreaker also has an amazing capstone (thematically and probably mechanically); depending on your campaign Control Undead is pretty boss (Undead creature with CR < Paladin level).

[Daishain]

That's a large part of why I prefer oath of ancients to vengeance, its better in the long run in spite of a rocky start with the channel divinity abilities.

That stated, don't forget your spells. You've got a lot of useful abilities that will come online over the rest of your career, not to mention one hell of a capstone.

If you do want to multiclass: fighter 2 is a good dip for just about anyone. Warlock synergizes with Paladin pretty well mechanically, although thematically is a different story. Cleric seems like it should synergize quite well, but it really doesn't, you may want to speak with your DM about fixing that. (Tempest Domain Cleric 14 + Vengeance Paladin 6 would be really nasty if you worked out the bugs)

[Strill]

You're completely ignoring the higher-level spells. Crusader's Mantle, Revivify, Elemental Weapon, Dimension Door, Banishment, and especially Hold Monster and Destructive Wave.


if i HIT on an opp attack then i can chase the target half my speed. yeah, like that is useful ever.It's very good. You hit them with an opportunity attack, then move to block off a chokepoint preventing them from getting to the rest of your party. Or alternatively, blast straight through enemy lines without provoking opportunity attacks and wind up next to the enemy caster.


anti fear aura. mehA lot of stuff causes fear, and anti-status effect is one of the Paladin's major themes.

extra d8 on attacks. ok i guess.This is on-par with Extra Attacks. You'd have to be crazy to write it off. This is one of the biggest melee upgrades for a Paladin.

[Socko525]

This is on-par with Extra Attacks. You'd have to be crazy to write it off. This is one of the biggest melee upgrades for a Paladin.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm AFB), but this also works on both of your regular attacks, reaction based/bonus action attacks and AoO's as well (making sentinel and polearm mastery even more potent). And this will also combo with your extended smite damage as well.

[Eslin]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm AFB), but this also works on both of your regular attacks, reaction based/bonus action attacks and AoO's as well (making sentinel and polearm mastery even more potent). And this will also combo with your extended smite damage as well.

Yep. Features like improved divine smite and rage are better the more attacks you have, features like extra attack and flurry of blows are better the stronger your attacks are. It's why you cast haste on the paladin and magic weapon on the fighter.

[Person_Man]

My opinion is that the first 7-ish levels of every class is pretty awesome and well balanced, but then after that point the full casters start to pull away and the non-full casters get a very mixed bag, with 2 or 3ish worthwhile abilities mixed in with a bunch of mediocre stuff and Ability Score Increases. I'm very close to just allowing players to cherry pick their choice of subclass abilities for any non-full caster. I hate it when I have to take abilities I don't want.

[silveralen]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm AFB), but this also works on both of your regular attacks, reaction based/bonus action attacks and AoO's as well (making sentinel and polearm mastery even more potent). And this will also combo with your extended smite damage as well.

You are correct. Fighter wants flat damage bonuses to boost his plethora of attacks, but paladin wants to focus on extra attacks so he can add his flat damage more often.

[MaxWilson]

Yep. The concept is flavourful and useful sounding, but they forgot charm got turned into advantage on charisma checks. Ask your DM if he can change it to domination or at least permanent suggestion.

So far I've only seen this ability used against us, so apparently the DM is totally onboard with using it as domination. (He probably didn't notice the new definition of "charmed" in this context any more than I, or WotC's proofreaders, did.)

In games that I run I will totally treat it as domination.

[Socko525]

I'm thinking at the very least I'd take 12 in paladin (11 for the extra damage, and 1 more for the ability score increase). After that though, I'd be open to suggestions. Fighter obviously has some bonuses with the nova damage from action surge. That'd also net me an extra ability score increase if I went 8 levels in.

But classes like Warlock, Sorcerer and Bard use Charisma as well. Warlock allows the trading of spells back and forth due to the Pact magic feature, Patron options/additional spells and the Pact offers interesting options as well-Tome expands the spell list, familiars are always fun (especially with find steed), but an always on magic weapon could go a long way. Also and maybe I'm wrong...but the Lifedrinker invocation would stack with duelist fighting style correct (assuming the ruling was invocations are based on character level not warlock level)?

Lore bard would also work well to help boost utility and spellcasting and sorcerer would add a bit more blasting power.

Although war cleric could be fun too, as it gives a bonus to hit/reliable bonus action attacks, but the spellcasting synergy isn't there

[Strill]

IMO Ranger 3 is a good dip for Paladin. It continues spell slot progression, and you can pick up Horde Breaker, which is awesome on its own, and is especially great for a Paladin.

[silveralen]

I like sorcerer as a dip myself. Quicken spell goes so well with caster/fighter hybrids.

[Socko525]

IMO Ranger 3 is a good dip for Paladin. It continues spell slot progression, and you can pick up Horde Breaker, which is awesome on its own, and is especially great for a Paladin.

After looking at it, paladin 16/17 ranger 3/4 could def fit thematically with a OotA paladin.

I was looking at it and paladin 12/ war cleric 8 could be really interesting. If I'm reading it correctly, that would net you the extra damage from improved smite and divine strike. Effectively giving you weapon damage+Str mod+1d8 (improved smite)+1d8 (divine strike) and you'd have 2 attacks with extra attack and some bonus attack from war priest.

And with the improved number of spell slots you'd be able to smite more often.

[Strill]

Cleric's Divine Strike only applies once per round though. IMO it's not very good.


some bonus attack from war priest. You're better off taking Shield Master, Great Weapon Master, or Polearm Master than relying on the war cleric bonus attack.