Skills and Proficiencies

[2E Phoinex]

A tiny bit of background before: I'm a 2nd edition DM but I've been playing in a 5th ed. game for a couple months now and I really like it a lot. Still, there are some philosophy and mechanical changes that I don't care for and so I'm attempting to mash the bits of each that I like into some house rules.

One thing that bothers me about 5th edition is the skill system. My closest analogue was the non weapon proficiency system in 2nd edition, but after a lot of thinking and playing I've concluded that the two are in fact very different in what they were designed for. Later I may try to add NWP proficiencies in the mix but for now one of my chief issue is the seemingly lazy application of the "Proficiency Bonus" to skills. Most characters will have four skills that they get a +2 to +6 in as they level up and that's it. From what I understand you can't become proficient in other skills as you advance in level. I feel like it should be somewhat more customizable and I'm willing to increase complexity a bit to achieve that.

My idea is to break down the proficiency bonus into +1s that can be applied to all the skills your class and background could become proficient in. So a level one character normally allowed to have 4 proficient skills gets 4 times 2 (the level one proficiency bonus) +1s that he or she can now apply in whatever manner desired, up to a maximum of +6 in an individual skill.

This way you have the option to be more versatile, or more focused because you can choose to spread out your +1s across all the skills your class would normally have the option to apply the single bonus to, or you can plug a large amount of them into a single skill and neglect the others to reflect your characters focus. As the character leveled up he or she would acquire additional +1s so that the total proficiency bonus remains equal to that in the RAW system.

Does anyone see any glaring holes in my logic?

[Ziegander]

Personally, I would still limit the maximum bonus to the character's Proficiency Bonus, but what you're describing essentially brings back 3rd Editions skill ranks concept to 5th edition, certainly not a worthless endeavor. If you want to allow characters to sink all their points into one skill at 1st level, I would certainly suggest capping them at +6 and no higher, because the ability to theoretically add 8 points or more to a single skill every level is absurd and unnecessary in this edition.

How would your system handle the Expertise class feature of Rogues (and to a limited extent, other classes, such as Cleric of Knowledge)?

[2E Phoinex]

I do mean to keep the bonus capped at +6. As for expertise I see no reason to change what is written: Double the bonus whatever it may be. Given that Rogues are allowed four proficiencies in addition to the two background proficiencies they will also acquire more bonuses than other classes. In the end the total of the bonuses should be equal to that of the RAW.

I'm actually doing most of my work off of the basic rules set so I'm not able to speak to clerics of knowledge. I'll get my own copy of the Players Handbook eventually but for now it's just more practical to use my DM's during the 5th edition sessions and the basic rules PDF the rest of the time.

[Demonic Spoon]

As long as the cap of the proficiency bonus to individual skills is maintained, this seems cool. I imagine this is similar to what the official skill points variant rule in the DMG will be.


Be careful with how this affects skill-monkeys - Pretty early on, a rogue could have +15-17 (+6 from proficiency + 6 from expertise, +3-5 from DEX) to stealth, or a bard could have a similar amount in Persuasion or Deception. Similarly, a warrior-type could dump all his points in athletics and never fail a grapple pretty much. It might not break the game, but a level 1 rogue with an average stealth check of 25 is going to be able to do a lot of crazy stuff you wouldn't otherwise expect at that level.


I'm actually doing most of my work off of the basic rules set so I'm not able to speak to clerics of knowledge. I'll get my own copy of the Players Handbook eventually but for now it's just more practical to use my DM's during the 5th edition sessions and the basic rules PDF the rest of the time.


Clerics of knowledge get to pick two of the int-based knowledge skills and become double-proficient (a la Expertise) in them.

[2E Phoinex]

You bring up good points. For the most part I don't actually have much of a problem with that level of skill at a low level. In 2nd Edition I generally focused my Thief characters to get excellent Move silently chances at lower levels and I didn't find it game breaking. I like the idea that even the lower levels should be respectable. A high level wizard can still be bound and gagged if he lets himself within grappling distance of a fighter.

From that level I'm more or less confident that I won't dislike the new rule as long as it remains consistent with the way I create NPC's.

However, it does worry me that low level warriors with excellent athletics rolls might find that they are more effective when simply grappling their opponents, knocking them prone, tying them up and cutting their throats. That isn't exactly the heroic image a lot of players have. Actually, even a low level Rogue could expertise in athletics, and get a +12 without any strength bonus.
Half of me is terrified by this and the other half is very intrigued. I think it will require play testing before I decide if I like it.

I'm now questioning even the philosophy behind the early focus. Would you say it is the same kind of thinking as allowing a low level Wizard character to give up the ability to cast all spells except evocation in exchange for high level evocation spells? That certainly isn't something I'd allow.

One potential solution: What if I keep the ability to diversify among all the skills allowed to your class and background, but set the Maximum Bonus capped at whatever it would normally be at for your level. So you still have the option of spreading the points around but you wont be getting game changer bonuses. A lot of players would opt to have the same situation as RAW, but it gives other players the option to be a little more versatile.

[Demonic Spoon]

However, it does worry me that low level warriors with excellent athletics rolls might find that they are more effective when simply grappling their opponents, knocking them prone, tying them up and cutting their throats. That isn't exactly the heroic image a lot of players have. Actually, even a low level Rogue could expertise in athletics, and get a +12 without any strength bonus.
Half of me is terrified by this and the other half is very intrigued. I think it will require play testing before I decide if I like it.


Being able to tie an enemy up while he is thrashing about would probably require substantial teamwork would require a check beyond Athletics probably. No doubt someone who focused on athletics in this way, though, could reliably incapacitate a single enemy with shove + grapple. The problem is that athletics is something of the exception in that most skills don't have major combat application (aside from stealth, sometimes). Being able to jack up your athletics to silly heights would provide major bonuses in combat with comparatively few downsides (being slightly less flexible out of combat).

You could always just rule that athletics does not work that way..Or, rule that the skill is capped for the purposes of shoving and grappling while still leaving room for strong-men who can rip a door off its hinges or something.