Building the best swordsmen of this world, or any other! Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser

[Gwendol]

Ok, so continuing to look at inspirations for D&D classes and builds, I challenge you with Fritz Leiber's dynamic duo: Fafhrd the Northener and the Gray Mouser, heroes(?) of Lankhmar.

Fafhrd

I'd like to give him a first level in Bard, but spellcasting seems a bit off. Better fit is perhaps Barbarian 2 with Performance given by background.
Fafhrd doesn't rage much, so it's reasonable to add mostly fighter levels after that (battlemaster seems fitting). Perhaps a rogue dip for skills?

So, Barb 2/Ftr (GW) 2/Rogue (Thief) 3)/Ftr (BM) X

He really should have both Great Weapon fighting and Archery though. Any thoughts on that? Champion is not as good a fit. Must have Athletism (excellent climber). Maybe a ranger dip? That could account for northern adaptation as well.

Gray Mouser

He starts off a wizards apprentice, then uses black magic to kill the Duke before arriving in Lankhmar. Fights with a rapier and a dagger, and doesn't use magic more than that one time really. In 5e that could be emulated by the Magic Initiate feat, or a 1-level dip of Wizard (with a lost spellbook).

Rogue (Thief) X with the feats: Magic Initiate, and Two weapon fighting. Or Wizard 1/Rogue (Thief) X.

[Easy_Lee]

For gray mouser, magic initiate won't really give him enough magic to kill someone. Rather, I'd think of him as a warlock apprentice who retrained after killing his master/patron.

He'd most likely be thief and definitely has some combat maneuvers.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the Grey Mouser is one of the bases upon which the Rogue class was originally built by Gygax et al. For that reason I'd like to squeeze in as many levels of Rogue as possible. He's got more "UMD" than any real magical skill.

I give him one level of Wild Magic sorcerer to account for his ability to kill the Duke, and thereafter Rogue, Thief Archetype, with some skill proficiencies in Know(Arcana) and the Two Weapon Fighting feat. His ability scores would feature a 20 in Dexterity, and decent scores in Intelligence, Wisdom (he notices stuff), and Charisma.

Fafhrd never raged at all that I recall. I give him levels in Ranger to start, then Fighter. He's actually more studious than the Mouser, and probably smarter. Fafhrd has to be close to a 50 point buy, as his Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence are all good, and his Wisdom and Charisma at least adequate.

[Easy_Lee]

I think the Grey Mouser is one of the bases upon which the Rogue class was originally built by Gygax et al. For that reason I'd like to squeeze in as many levels of Rogue as possible. He's got more "UMD" than any real magical skill.

I give him one level of Wild Magic sorcerer to account for his ability to kill the Duke, and thereafter Rogue, Thief Archetype, with some skill proficiencies in Know(Arcana) and the Two Weapon Fighting feat. His ability scores would feature a 20 in Dexterity, and decent scores in Intelligence, Wisdom (he notices stuff), and Charisma.

How would you feel about just letting him retrain for his rogue levels? Retraining seems to be supported by 5e. Further, he would pretty much have to retrain if he was, in fact, a former warlock and no longer has his patron's favor.

[Doug Lampert]

He starts off a wizards apprentice, then uses black magic to kill the Duke before arriving in Lankhmar. Fights with a rapier and a dagger, and doesn't use magic more than that one time really. In 5e that could be emulated by the Magic Initiate feat, or a 1-level dip of Wizard (with a lost spellbook).

Rogue (Thief) X with the feats: Magic Initiate, and Two weapon fighting. Or Wizard 1/Rogue (Thief) X.

Actually, IIRC he uses magic a couple of other times. Most notably in the underground kingdom they end up in once.

[Gwendol]

Fafhrd is quite the linguist and has some skill in perform (was training to be a skald). He uses that to preach later on.

[Shining Wrath]

How would you feel about just letting him retrain for his rogue levels? Retraining seems to be supported by 5e. Further, he would pretty much have to retrain if he was, in fact, a former warlock and no longer has his patron's favor.

Retraining a Warlock into a Rogue?

Well ...

There's no Lieber source for him doing that ... and he did keep on stealing scrolls and tomes and thought he could be a mage, even though he was too undisciplined to study them.

I still want one level of charisma-based caster followed by Rogue. Maybe he dips Arcane Trickster levels rather than Thief levels because he still dreams of being a wizard. His build doesn't have to be optimized, does it?

[Easy_Lee]

Retraining a Warlock into a Rogue?

Well ...

There's no Lieber source for him doing that ... and he did keep on stealing scrolls and tomes and thought he could be a mage, even though he was too undisciplined to study them.

I still want one level of charisma-based caster followed by Rogue. Maybe he dips Arcane Trickster levels rather than Thief levels because he still dreams of being a wizard. His build doesn't have to be optimized, does it?

Probably not. He was mentioned to be a great swordsman, which really could just mean max prof bonus and the right set of feats. If we assume he's a rogue, he could technically be wizard 1 / rogue 2 / fighter 17 and still meet all of the prerequisites for what he does in the books (IIRC). There's a lot of variability there.

I'm tempted to say something like blade-pact warlock 6 / thief rogue 14. That gives him three attacks with dual wielding, maximum number of feat and stat options, and dark magic as well as very strong thiefing potential. Might also make sense as Wizard 1 / BM Fighter 5 / Thief Rogue 14. That gives him a fighting style, his wizard level for minor spell casting, and three attacks. Lots of possibilities.

Unless we compile a list of every noteworthy thing he ever did, we probably can't make a perfect build.

[Gwendol]

Well, both of them are athletic and agile. The reason for the Mouser not to use magic (much) after killing the duke is likely a matter of choice and not necessarily a lack of ability.
He fails his will save in the bazaar of the bizarre. Fafhrd is not fooled in that one, but perhaps the demon(?) can only enthrall one at a time?
The Mouser likely has the feats dual wielder and lucky, while Fafhrd has more heavy weapons related feats and maybe archery.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, both of them are athletic and agile. The reason for the Mouser not to use magic (much) after killing the duke is likely a matter of choice and not necessarily a lack of ability.
He fails his will save in the bazaar of the bizarre. Fafhrd is not fooled in that one, but perhaps the demon(?) can only enthrall one at a time?
The Mouser likely has the feats dual wielder and lucky, while Fafhrd has more heavy weapons related feats and maybe archery.

I recall Fafhrd dual wielding as well, when attacked by an octopus type creature, he used a hand axe in his left hand as a sort of "universal parry" and then lopped off arms with his broadsword. But since that was purely defensive, I don't know if it counts as needing the feat.

In terms of skills, Fafhrd is Athletic, Mouser Acrobatic. That much seems clear.

[Easy_Lee]

I recall Fafhrd dual wielding as well, when attacked by an octopus type creature, he used a hand axe in his left hand as a sort of "universal parry" and then lopped off arms with his broadsword. But since that was purely defensive, I don't know if it counts as needing the feat.

I've seen parrying knives pop up in other games. Perhaps he used the hand axe as a lesser form of a shield? I'd definitely consider a +1 to AC for something like that.

[Gwendol]

The good thing about 5e is that dual wielding is better supported (than before).

[Easy_Lee]

The good thing about 5e is that dual wielding is better supported (than before).

It's pretty well supported this time around, IMO. The damage is less than GWF, but only after level 11. And the AC and initiative are better with a DEX route (why wouldn't you go DEX route?). The only reason it really catches crap is because the dual wielder feat is lackluster, adding basically 1AC and 1 damage per attack. And yes, polearm master is probably overall better, but it's overall better than just about any melee option so...yeah. Notably, the dual wielder will probably beat any form of GWF in a duel due to defensive duelist.

[Raxxius]

The problem with how D&D does 2 weapon fighting is that it makes a majority offensive choice. Realistically 2 weapon fighting consists of a defensive and offensive weapon. This just isn't modeled in any D&D version well. Much like D&D doesn't allow for any circumstantial weapon arming. (2nd ed did quite extensively with the combat and tactics update, but that was largely dismissed as too hard, but at least it gave a warrior a reason to switch from his longsword to a mace when fighting certain foes.)

As such I wouldn't worry about Fafhrds dual wielding, he predominately used greatweapon fighting (if I recall correctly) and I'd build him around that with a standard points array (opposed to Conans super stats barrage).

[Darthjodoc]

Lot of interesting replies. FWIW, here’s my guesstimates on the duo.

Though Fafhrd doesn’t frequently rage, he more or less did so when he acted as Issek of the Jug. Because of that, I’d give him 1 level in barbarian. I’d also give him a few levels in ranger, but not to the point where he’d have spellcasting. And, since Outlander provides proficiency with an instrument, I’d give him that background. The bulk of his levels would go in fighter. I would say Champion, only for the multiple fighting styles and toughness.

Mouser would be a straight rogue-thief with the Magic Initiate (wizard) feat, except with a level in monk. He’d also have the Ritual Caster (wizard) feat. He’d have the Urchin background.

I see both characters as heroic types with good ACs despite a lack of armor (or magic). For Fafhrd, it’d be in that level of barbarian, while for Mouser, it’d be that level of monk (to reflect his time as a white wizard apprentice, though the Magic Initiate feat was his dip into black magic). Fafhrd would have the Tavern Brawler feat, and both would have the Dual Wield feat.

I’d use the Variant Human for both, to account for more skills and 1st level feats. I’d say the characters we meet in the origin stories would be 3rd-4th level. Stats would’ve been rolled and high overall. Though the high Wisdom for monk doesn’t fit Mouser, I can’t think of an alternative akin to Jarlaxle’s special ability to add his Charisma mod to his AC (that’d work more for Mouser).

Fafhrd would use a longsword, paired on occasion with a hand axe, dagger, or even short sword (for a big dagger), and his longbow for ranged. Mouser is straight up rapier and dagger, with daggers or a sling for ranged.

[Throne12]

Why not just make him a Arcane trickier.

[GlenSmash!]

Wow a 4 year thread necro. Anyway Fafhrd is another case where I'd use the UA Scout Fighter if I could, with either the Entertainer or Outlander Background, or a Custom combination of the two.

[JackPhoenix]

Because the thread it 4 and a half year old?

[MThurston]

They are not standard characters.

They are written as the best warriors EVER.

Not a tie by a 5E build idea.

1. They would be over level 20.

2. They would have the gods looking out for them.

[Vogie]

Fafhrd

I'd like to give him a first level in Bard, but spellcasting seems a bit off. Better fit is perhaps Barbarian 2 with Performance given by background.
Fafhrd doesn't rage much, so it's reasonable to add mostly fighter levels after that (battlemaster seems fitting). Perhaps a rogue dip for skills?

So, Barb 2/Ftr (GW) 2/Rogue (Thief) 3)/Ftr (BM) X

He really should have both Great Weapon fighting and Archery though. Any thoughts on that? Champion is not as good a fit. Must have Athletism (excellent climber). Maybe a ranger dip? That could account for northern adaptation as well.

I could see Revised Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Fighter X. That'll give you both GWM & Archery, and you can use the Performer feat to bump up that skill since you'll be more focused on everything other than Charisma. For ranger spells, I'd pick Zephyr Strike and Absorb Elements (for something rage-ish)

Alternatively, If your DM is cool with it, Just do the Spell-Less Ranger X with a 3 level rogue dip and 1 level Fighter dip for GWM. That way you have no issue with spells, as they are all replaced with the BM maneuvers.


Gray Mouser

He starts off a wizards apprentice, then uses black magic to kill the Duke before arriving in Lankhmar. Fights with a rapier and a dagger, and doesn't use magic more than that one time really. In 5e that could be emulated by the Magic Initiate feat, or a 1-level dip of Wizard (with a lost spellbook).

Rogue (Thief) X with the feats: Magic Initiate, and Two weapon fighting. Or Wizard 1/Rogue (Thief) X.


I'd do Rogue 1 / Bladesinger Wizard 2 / Rogue X

Play it like a Spell-less Wizard, with the "spells" being the techniques and physique that make them seem supernaturally good... things like Mage armor, Feather fall, Shield, longstrider, jump, et cetera. Bladesong is refluffed as a fencer's stance.

The Dual Wielder Trait allows you to have a Rapier in one hand, a dagger in the other, and +1 AC, giving you the "parrying dagger" feel you're looking for.

[Malifice]

Not enough love for Swashbuckler in this thread.

[Chronos]

The only time that the Grey Mouser ever actually uses magic himself is in his backstory. Honestly, I'd just make him a straight Thief, and just handwave away that one use. At most, if we insist on keeping it canon, call it Use Magic Device with a scroll that should have been too powerful for him and that he got lucky on.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Below is a copy/paste from AD&D Legends and Lore, (c) 1984 The typos are based on the lesser quality of the PDF.

FAFHRD (hero)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 12"
HIT POINTS 120
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGEIATTACK: By weupon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: M (6 feet, I I inches)
ALIGNMENT Neutral good
CLERIC/DRUID: Nil
FIGHTER: 15th level ronger
MAGIC-USERIILLUSIONIST Nil
THIEFIASSASSIN: 13th level thief
MONKIBARD: 5th level bard
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil
S: 18(W)(+3, +6) I: 17 W 14 D
AttackIDefense Modes: Nil
: 18 C: 18 CH: li
This Northern red-hoired borborian is the strong arm of the two-hero teom.
Taking special interest in languages, he can read and write 011 the major
one3 of Nehwon ond there is an 80% chonce that he will underrtond any
obscure one he is exposed to. He olwoyr carrier CI bastard sword (which he
olwoys names Graywond) and 0 dirk (more short sword or poniard than
anything elre) he cds Heartreeker. He sometimes fights with a hond axe,
bolonced for throwing, in hit left hond. He is also adept with o long bow.
Fofhrd is able to climb walls and hide in shadows with CI +20% over his
usual thiefly bore.
Coming from the frigid planes of the cold north, this borborion hero is (I
hardy soul who withstands hardships with CI grim mile. He loves roiling,
06 hewenton mclnyviking-likeroidrarayouth. Itwasin tankhmarthat he
met the Groy Mouser. This hero is very emotional and willing to believe in
wild tales and schemes far more readily than thir shorter partner. Fafhrd
has even gone so far os to toke up religion upon one occasion, which wof
short lived hut epic in the telling

GRAY MOUSER [hero)
AC 2
Move 12"
Hit Points: 96
No attacks 3/2 (or 3, see below)
DAMAGE/AllACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE Stondard
SIZE: M (5")
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
CLERIC/DRUID: Nil
FIGHTER: I ifh level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 3rd level
mogic-user
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 15th level thief
MONK/BARD: Nil
PSlONlC ABILITY Nil
S i6(0, +I) I: 18 W 14 D 19 C: 17 CH: 18
This short mon of the western cities supplies the refinement and delicacy
his brawny portner lacks. He COIIS his ropier Scalpel and the dogger he
uses (balanced for throwing) Cot's Clow. The Gray Mouser is very fond of
studying thingrarcone, but has not the mogicc. skills lo master hirrtudies.
He has (I greot oversion to onything $harp being pointed at him, an
aversion that hm roved his life many times, He gentrolly fights with
Scalpel in his right hand and Cot's Claw in his left, incurring no penalties to
hit due to his phenomenal dextetity. When so armed, he strikes 3 times per
melee round, with o 50% chance that the third strike will be with either
weapon.
While the Mouser grew vp on the streets (with all that that implies), his
teen years were spent with an old hedge magician who taught him the
ways of lbw and a little magic. it WOI there doyr $pent in the forests with
his mentor that gave Mouser his streak of morality. It was shortly after this
time that the young man met his lifelong friend Fafhrd. While the Gray
Mouser is a thief, CI liar. and o trickster supreme, he can be relied upon to
keep faith for causes he rupportr and people he favors.