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View Full Version : multiclassing: when did/would you do it?



lacesmcawesome
2007-03-24, 10:18 PM
So right now, I'm playing a rogue in my second campaign ever (not many gamers in my area). Bad thing is, there are only two PCs and our DM, pretty much. The other guy? He plays a rogue. I realize this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I feel like putting some variety in it. So far we've only had a few sessions, so we're still level one. I figured, to bring something else to the game, I'd multiclass my character. I was thinking going to sorcerer, because I've always wanted to try it, and I think that it might complement my rogue (since they're supposed to enjoy the company of rogues, according to the PHB, and whatnot).

My dilemma is this:
Should I multiclass at level 2? Or should I wait until I've got a few more levels of rogue, so I don't end up with just two classes that are level one, making me, I would think, a bit weaker. Since I'll just have a whole bunch of level one stats for two classes, instead of the level 2 stats for just one class.

I don't even know if it makes a big difference, but hey, I'm rather new, so I want to make an educated judgement.

I am pretty determined though to multiclass to sorcerer, just debating now on when I should do it.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 10:30 PM
If you stick with rogue until you have three levels under your belt, you'll have the rogue's side of the prerequisites for arcane trickster. However, you'll then have six levels of sorcerer to get through before meeting the prereqs for the class, at level 10, so that may be thinking too far ahead (and chances are you'd do better with wizard, since you'd get into the class sooner, and get access to spell levels sooner once you were in it).

Otherwise I'd say to get into sorcerer or wizard ASAP so as to lose as few caster levels as possible.

If there's only two of you playing you might talk to the DM about playing gestalt. A Rogue//Sorcerer and Rogue//Cleric (or similar mix) would be a pretty entertaining team, so long as you stayed out of face-to-face combat.

Tellah
2007-03-24, 10:49 PM
Mechanically, switching over to Wizard is the better choice, usually. Which is higher, your intelligence, or your charisma?

Think about what your characters specialize in. Is one rogue a social rogue, while the other is the trapfinding/open lock dungeoneering type? If not, try to do something along those lines. If you're the trapmonkey, you could start taking kineticist levels, since Disable Device is (for whatever reason) a class skill for them--you'd suffer on the Search ranks, though. If you're the social rogue, going into beguiler could be a good choice, but only if you've got the intelligence for it. If you've gone the charisma route, then sorcerer could do nicely as well.

Really, though, if your characters work hard at not stepping on one another's toes, two rogues with completely different skill ranks could be fairly effective, especially if one of you takes a lot of ranks in Use Magic Device.

melchizedek
2007-03-24, 10:51 PM
it depends what you want your character to be. If you want equal parts sorcerer and rogue, I'd probably alternate levels, but if you want a rogue that can cast a couple of spells, I'd wait a few levels before I took the level of sorcerer.

lacesmcawesome
2007-03-24, 11:13 PM
Mechanically, switching over to Wizard is the better choice, usually. Which is higher, your intelligence, or your charisma?




Wait, really?

I was kind of sure that sorcerer was a better bet. Could you explain? I'm looking at my book, and kind of coming up with no way to see why. It looks like I get more spells per day, and the ability to not have to prepare them with sorcerer, even though there's a limit to how many I know. I probably overlooked something here, since I'm rather sure that you have more knowledge than I (since I really am just a beginner)

Fhaolan
2007-03-24, 11:33 PM
The Wizard is more bookkeeping, and you have to plan your spell list in advance every day. But you *can* learn every spell in the Wizard list, and research even more. This gives you a huge pool of spells to choose from. If you know what you're going up against that day, you can always have the appropriate spells ready. If you never know what you're up against however, and don't have complete understanding of how your spells work... you are probably better off with a Sorcerer.

The Sorcerer is less bookkeeping, and you can spam your spells all over the place. You can cast more, but from a very limited list of spells known. This limited list is the Sorcerer's weak spot. You have to be very, very careful in what spells you pick to know. As you go up levels the spells you need will change and you can only switch out one spell every four levels, so make the wrong choices and your character can be severely disadvantaged long-term.

Zincorium
2007-03-24, 11:34 PM
Wait, really?

I was kind of sure that sorcerer was a better bet. Could you explain? I'm looking at my book, and kind of coming up with no way to see why. It looks like I get more spells per day, and the ability to not have to prepare them with sorcerer, even though there's a limit to how many I know. I probably overlooked something here, since I'm rather sure that you have more knowledge than I (since I really am just a beginner)

Yes, you get more spells of any given type, but compare the levels you start getting higher level spells. Wizards are a level ahead once you get to third level. You can also know a very large number of spells, and prepare them to suit the mission at hand. A sorceror will never know more than five spells of a given level, and less than that once you go up. Think about it. Can you really do your job at the best level if you have only five spells to choose from, period?

Variable Arcana
2007-03-24, 11:50 PM
Also, realize that Wizards can specialize.

In comparing how many spells a sorceror can cast to those a wizard can cast, add one spell per level to the wizard. Helps quite a bit a low levels.

Rogue/Illusionist has a nice ring to it, flavor-wise...

clericwithnogod
2007-03-25, 12:21 AM
I played with a guy that ran a halfling Rogue1/Wizard(Necromancer)X that he (and the rest of the party) really enjoyed. I'd buzz out early for Wizard if you want to be a good caster and specialize in something. If you want to cast just a bit, go sorceror, then find interesting stuff to stack on it the non-core material if you can use it. Another option is Warlock (from Complete Arcane) or something similar. It's an easy class to use if you're new because you get to use the spell-like abilities all the time and a lot of them are nice for a rogue.

lacesmcawesome
2007-03-25, 12:31 AM
I played with a guy that ran a halfling Rogue1/Wizard(Necromancer)X that he (and the rest of the party) really enjoyed. I'd buzz out early for Wizard if you want to be a good caster and specialize in something. If you want to cast just a bit, go sorceror, then find interesting stuff to stack on it the non-core material if you can use it. Another option is Warlock (from Complete Arcane) or something similar. It's an easy class to use if you're new because you get to use the spell-like abilities all the time and a lot of them are nice for a rogue.

That's kinda how I wanted to go. i wasn't thinking about specializing too much in spellcasting, just being able to use a few spells here and there. I don't need a lot of spells, just a few to help me out now and then.

Jannex
2007-03-25, 12:32 AM
Admittedly, I'm a bit biased in favor of rogues, but if it were me, I'd stick with rogue to at least second level (Evasion!), and would be horribly tempted by Uncanny Dodge at 4th... but again, I'm partial to rogues.

Likewise, if it were me, I'd go sorcerer over wizard. Wizards do get their spells a level earlier, but I just don't have the patience for prepared casters. If you've never played a caster before, though, spontaneous casting is probably easier.

Or see if you can convince your DM to convert to gestalt. Gestalt is made of awesome.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-25, 12:35 AM
Wait, really?

I was kind of sure that sorcerer was a better bet. Could you explain? I'm looking at my book, and kind of coming up with no way to see why. It looks like I get more spells per day, and the ability to not have to prepare them with sorcerer, even though there's a limit to how many I know. I probably overlooked something here, since I'm rather sure that you have more knowledge than I (since I really am just a beginner)

Sorcerers are really kind of lame compared to wizards.
Sorcerers get one more spell per day of each level than a specialist wizard. In return, he knows how many spells? Not very many. There are tons of good spells, many of which you only really *want* to cast once per day (like Overland Flight). A sorcerer can get a small fraction of these. Wizards are more powerful just because they can use more of the best spells.
Plus, INT is their casting stat, and INT helps you with your skill points, which makes wizard a better bet for rogue.

Aquillion
2007-03-25, 02:45 AM
That's kinda how I wanted to go. i wasn't thinking about specializing too much in spellcasting, just being able to use a few spells here and there. I don't need a lot of spells, just a few to help me out now and then.Do you mean you don't need to be able to cast them frequently, though, or you don't need a wide range to choose from?

The only real reason to choose sorcerer or warlock would be if you intended to depend on magic very heavily, since the only real advantage they have is that they can use it more frequently. If you only intend to use magic occasionally to cover your weak points and deal with specific issues, wizard is a much better choice, since with a bit of foresight you can select your spells for each day to deal with whatever issues or weak points you expect to arise in the immediate future.

...but, really, there's another issue here. You've already rolled your character and are playing them, right? So... which is higher, their CHA or their INT? If one or the other is low, your choice is sorta made for you.

Lemur
2007-03-25, 02:57 AM
What are your ability scores? That should play a role in your multiclassing decisions.

As far as sorc vs. wiz, a lot of people will say sorceror is better for newer people because it has less bookkeeping, but I have to disagree. A sorceror's spell choices are permanent, and if you'll pardon me saying, new players don't always have the best eye for spells right off the bat. This means they can lock themselves up with a lot of mediocre spells. With a wizard, though, you can remedy any mistakes by being able to scribe new spells. It'll cost you some money, but it's considerably better than the alternative.

That said, if you have a good wisdom, there's a strong argument for cleric or druid, since your spell list is automatically done for you, and they're particularly well-rounded for adventuring.

Quietus
2007-03-25, 04:23 AM
I'd just like to point out that I've considered, many times, taking Sorceror levels with a rogue - even if it's just ONE. The reason? Ray of Frost, and Acid Splash, type spells. Ranged touch spells can carry your sneak attack damage, and the best way to bust through that big clanky wall of metal is to pretend it isn't there at all.

axraelshelm
2007-03-25, 06:22 AM
What are your ability scores? That should play a role in your multiclassing decisions.

As far as sorc vs. wiz, a lot of people will say sorceror is better for newer people because it has less bookkeeping, but I have to disagree. A sorceror's spell choices are permanent, and if you'll pardon me saying, new players don't always have the best eye for spells right off the bat. This means they can lock themselves up with a lot of mediocre spells. With a wizard, though, you can remedy any mistakes by being able to scribe new spells. It'll cost you some money, but it's considerably better than the alternative.

That said, if you have a good wisdom, there's a strong argument for cleric or druid, since your spell list is automatically done for you, and they're particularly well-rounded for adventuring.

Well it's the cool vs bookish thing with a sorceror and a wizard. A sorceror doesn't rely on anything else than himself when it comes to magic which is why new players love them so much, i like to see wizards as solidors getting ready every morning packing different tools for the job at hand from a sniper rifle to a orpital lazer canon. Attack from the air attack behind enmie lines the wizard is the perfect solider invisable, while can be the biggest predator that he has ever seen. Now why wouldn't you want to play this class?

The Valiant Turtle
2007-03-25, 08:20 AM
I agree with those who say your stats should probably determine which way you go. If the stats are close I would definitely go Wizard and probably specialize in Divination. If nothing else just having scribe scroll available is a big bonus in your case, that way you can have all kinds of unusual spells available if you need them. Let me give you a link to the infamous Batman thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

There is a huge amount of information there about how to play a wizard effectively. It might actually be more than you really need right now, but keep it around and read through it some day.

If you do play a sorcerer, you might want to ask your DM if you could change out spells more frequently, otherwise you will almost certainly end up with spells that are of no use to you later.

With just two players, gestalt would definitely be something to look into.

Suvarov454
2007-03-25, 08:25 AM
The rules for Gestalt Characters are online (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) (thank you, OGL!) for any old gamers (like me:) who doesn't know what people are talking about.

lacesmcawesome
2007-03-25, 10:31 AM
Unfortunately, I've got an equal score for both charisma and intelligence, so that's not quite helping me.

Thank you everyone, I think I've reconsidered a bit, and I'm starting to lean towards wizard now that I've heard the argument on its behalf. Sorcerer is still appealing, and I'm going to check with my DM on his rules, and see what he recommends for he specific campaign, or if he even wants me to multiclass, he's got some different rules for us, because it's kind of a unique campaign, so maybe it won't fit into what he wants.

Fhaolan
2007-03-25, 10:49 AM
Since you're a new player, and it sounds like the DM is using a lot of houserules, it's a *really* good idea to talk to the DM before making this decision.

There is a tendency that I've noticed for DMs to be a bit more flexible around Sorcerers with new players, allowing them to switch out spells more frequently than the RAW every four levels. A new player can be expected to mess up the spell selection, simply because it takes experience with arcane spells to know which ones to choose. If your DM allows this, Sorcerer becomes a more viable choice.

kamikasei
2007-03-25, 10:56 AM
A lot of a wizard's effectiveness depends on access to scrolls and opportunity to scribe your own. Especially for the kind of character you're considering, the chief strength of those first few wizard levels would be the ability to learn a wide range of spells from scrolls you buy or loot, and to then make scrolls of handy "what-if" utility spells so that you're always prepared even if you don't have many slots. If your DM limits your access to spells for research, and/or doesn't afford you the downtime you need to scribe your own scrolls, a wizard is a lot less useful.