Necromancer

[newb]

Hi, I don't have much experience with pathfinder and I'm joining a ongoing game. I would like help building a necromancy char.

I can be lg to cg and ln

Not evil dm said summon dead or create zombie is not an evil act unless you summon like ancient even Kings who don't want to come.

Party resurrection is highly discouraged and he asked me to not take any such spells.

Stats I rolled
18 17 14 10 13 15. Have not chosen a race yet. Any race out of core is ok.

First time playing so I don't expect to survive forever so something fun at level 5. Can I have some help cause there is a lot out there. Core advanced and and ultimate magic allowed only. Ultimate Combat has to be approved since he dosent have that book yet

[Amphetryon]

If I am reading your allowed sources correctly, Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-dhampir) are off the table, which is a shame, because they make excellent Necromancers. If you're restricted to Core races, I'd honestly consider a Half-Orc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc) Necromancer, with the Cavewight, City-bred, and Toothy variants (say he's from a subterranean metropolis of some sort). The first two provide nice little bonuses to some Knowledge skills, while the third provides a thematic and interesting way of delivering Touch spells, which Necromancers have a few of, should anyone close to melee with you. Lawful Neutral will probably give you the most leeway with the Necromancer archetype, provided you actually do maintain a reasonable code of conduct.

With your stats, I'd go STR 13 DEX 17 CON 15 INT 18 (use the Half-Orc's +2 to get it to 20 at 1st level) WIS 10 CHA 14; Necromancers arguably get more mileage out of both STR and CHA than most Wizards, leaving WIS as your most appealing 'dump stat' in my opinion.

For Feats, Improved Initiative is golden at 1st level (along with Scribe Scroll) provided you don't take a Familiar as your Arcane Bond and select one of the options that grants +4 Initiative; if you do, Toughness is actually a good 1st level Feat in Pathfinder. Spell Focus: Necromancy is an obvious 3rd level choice. By 5th level, you'll probably have to fight Incorporeal creatures as well as potentially commanding them, so Ectoplasmic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/ectoplasmic-spell-metamagic) is likely to be handy, along with another Metamagic Feat. At 7th, either Thanatopic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic) or Threnodic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic), depending on how you wish to focus.

[newb]

Which book is necromancer in. I was under impression I would have to use cleric or oracle and focus on necromancy through their class

[Ssalarn]

My guess is that he assumed by "Necromancer" you meant "Wizard with the Necromancy school" which is actually a lot more doable in Pathfinder than in earlier editions of the game where divine base classes had a huge edge in necromantic themes and abilities.

[Katana1515]

Amphetryon is referring to the Necromancer Wizard. As in a Wizard who chooses Necromancy as his specialism. see http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard#TOC-Arcane-School for more details on how this works. Its worth noting that at level 5 a Necromancer Wizard cant actually animate dead, he can only attempt to control the ones he come across. Necromancer Wizards usually use their spells to debuff their enemies. Amphetryon has given you some good tips on building that kind of character, for further details I would refer you to Treantmonks Guide to Pathfinder Wizards for an in depth review of the class as a whole. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test

If you are adamant on having minions to control (may want to talk to your DM about this, as it leads to extra bookwork and isn't often a good starting point for people new to PF) as early as level 5 you need to be a cleric. That is the only class off the top of my head that gets access to animate dead that early (the rules for animate dead can be found here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead). Clerics make the best necromancers in the classical sense of 'have a zombie horde', as well as being a damn solid class all round. The Oracles limited spells known probably isn't flexible enough to easily encompass all the extra necromancy spells you are gonna want as well as the day to day stuff you need for adventuring.

This is a good introduction to animate dead and its applications https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit

And here is the guide I usually give my players who are looking at Cleric.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en#

Hope this helps!

Edit: Ssalarn! You ninjad me!

[Ssalarn]

Amphetryon is referring to the Necromancer Wizard. As in a Wizard who chooses Necromancy as his specialism. see http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard#TOC-Arcane-School for more details on how this works. Its worth noting that at level 5 a Necromancer Wizard cant actually animate dead, he can only attempt to control the ones he come across. Necromancer Wizards usually use their spells to debuff their enemies. Amphetryon has given you some good tips on building that kind of character, for further details I would refer you to Treantmonks Guide to Pathfinder Wizards for an in depth review of the class as a whole. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test

If you are adamant on having minions to control (may want to talk to your DM about this, as it leads to extra bookwork and isn't often a good starting point for people new to PF) as early as level 5 you need to be a cleric. That is the only class off the top of my head that gets access to animate dead that early (the rules for animate dead can be found here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead). Clerics make the best necromancers in the classical sense of 'have a zombie horde', as well as being a damn solid class all round. The Oracles limited spells known probably isn't flexible enough to easily encompass all the extra necromancy spells you are gonna want as well as the day to day stuff you need for adventuring.

This is a good introduction to animate dead and its applications https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit

And here is the guide I usually give my players who are looking at Cleric.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en#

Hope this helps!

Another way to do the necromancy gig is to play a Summoner (or just make sure your Necromancy Wizard knows the summon monster spell) and pick up the Skeleton Summoner feat from Ultimate Magic. That will let you conjure up skeletons right from level 1, and the secondary ability of the feat is cool because it lets you summon a skeletal version of any monster on the Summon Monster list, opening the door for some cool, unique undead you might not be able to get any other way (Skeletal Trumpet Archons anyone?). One of the other nice things about going this route is that it lets you stack some of the cool summoning feats like Superior Summoning, Augment Summoning, and Evolved Summoned Monster to your undead minions. Plus, Skeleton Summoner is from Ultimate Magic, which appears to be on the approved list. Granted, you're conjuring the undead instead of actually raising them, but this can serve as a strong option for an arcane necromancer to use until his higher level undead animation spells come online, and conjuration is never a bad choice for any caster as a secondary focus. Or even a primary focus, where you play a conjurer in necromantic trappings.

[SamsDisciple]

If you are sticking to lower levels I would second the summoner idea. You can conjure up all kinds of undead with the skeleton summoner feat and if you go master summoner you can easily conjure up your skeleton/zombie horde and it won't be an evil act in the slightest. You could even fluff it in a LG way with your ancestors souls coming to protect you. Or you could stick to the necromancer shtick and you are able to animate many undead without the material components but they only stay animated for a short while. I totally see your eidolon being like an egor who is constantly scavenging for more bones and body parts for you to animate and thats why you rarely see him.

Again with the necromancing summoner you could be doing the whole Dr. Frankenstein deal and play a vanilla summoner that continues to craft and improve his single big undead monster. There are several evolutions to create a nicely powered undead eidolon. If you choose this route half-elf is a must so you can get more evolution points.

[Ssalarn]

If you are sticking to lower levels I would second the summoner idea. You can conjure up all kinds of undead with the skeleton summoner feat and if you go master summoner you can easily conjure up your skeleton/zombie horde and it won't be an evil act in the slightest. You could even fluff it in a LG way with your ancestors souls coming to protect you. Or you could stick to the necromancer shtick and you are able to animate many undead without the material components but they only stay animated for a short while. I totally see your eidolon being like an egor who is constantly scavenging for more bones and body parts for you to animate and thats why you rarely see him.

Again with the necromancing summoner you could be doing the whole Dr. Frankenstein deal and play a vanilla summoner that continues to craft and improve his single big undead monster. There are several evolutions to create a nicely powered undead eidolon. If you choose this route half-elf is a must so you can get more evolution points.

I'm seriously digging the idea of a Summoner and his eidolon basically being Dr. Frankenstein and his monster.

...

I might have to go build a Summoner with the Skeleton Summoner feat and go get my necromancer on :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Necromancer Wizards usually use their spells to debuff their enemies.
...
If you are adamant on having minions to control...as early as level 5 you need to be a cleric

Divine Necromancers are generally better at the minion-hordes (although at level 5 Cleric is really the _only_ minion option).
Undead Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/undead-lord) Cleric comes highly recommended.
At level 6+ Oracles have an easier time out-hording a Cleric, especially if Juju Mystery is allowed. And being CHA dependent, they are the best at Channeling Energy/Commanding Undead.
It's even possible to do a Druid Necromancer, but you will get such the funny looks, and your actual Necromany will be so limited...but it's doable.

Arcane Necromancers are better from a Debuff standpoint.
Necromancy Wizards are solid, as they get Command Undead/Channeling.
Undead Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline) Sorcerer lets you cast Mind-Affecting spells on (some) Undead. But I find the Sanguine Wildbloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/mutated-bloodlines---paizo/sanguine) overall better, as you get a straight +1 Caster Level on Necroman
Gravewalker (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/gravewalker) Witches are decent, but overall the weakest of the Arcane group.

None of the other casters get all that much to support a dedicated Necromancer theme.

[Abd al-Azrad]

This is one of my fave Wizard guides (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hA61fDAxblBxbRXe236ZUmobf38hkB9d_foo3dEi7N4/pub).

It is for a Necromancer specialist, but because it is a Wizard guide, it also gives all sorts of nice tricks and combos outside of just Necromancy for an aspiring Wizard player to use. For instance, the Heightened Dazing Chill Touch, which is equally useful to disable living or undead enemies, or the use of Evolved Familiar to deliver touch spells with 10' reach.

[Septimus]

Don't forget the lesser version of animate dead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/animateDead.html#animate-dead,-lesser) that lets you have your own minions at level 3 to 6 (depending if you are an cleric, oracle, wizard or sorcerer, in that order).

[Coidzor]

Don't forget the lesser version of animate dead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/animateDead.html#animate-dead,-lesser) that lets you have your own minions at level 3 to 6 (depending if you are an cleric, oracle, wizard or sorcerer, in that order).

That spell always confuses me, I can't tell if they intended to limit it to a single undead minion in the control pool at a time or if they just wanted to make it so that it was clear that animating undead is a downtime kind of activity. :smallconfused:


Party resurrection is highly discouraged and he asked me to not take any such spells.

So, what, does the DM not want you making undead minions out of dead party members or do they have a hate-on for people not having to roll up new characters if their character dies? :smallconfused:

[Abd al-Azrad]

Re: Lesser Animate Dead, do keep in mind that you actually have to pay for the minions it creates, like a sucker.

Lesser Animate cannot make Bloody Skeletons (which only die in a Consecrated area or when struck by positive energy) so you actually have a chance to lose your valuable Onyx investment. Which makes it not ideal for creating a bunch of weak, disposable minions.

To get around this, I recommend you take the False Focus feat. With this feat, you can craft yourself a make-believe Divine Focus worth up to 100gp, which removes all material component costs from your spells which cost less than the value of the False Focus.

So, you can make 4HD skeletons and zombies for free, as well as a large number of other cheap tricks (one of my faves during higher-level play, to keep your False Focus relevant is to cast Communal Stone Skin on yourself only, as it has a material component cost of 100gp per person targeted).

[newb]

To get around this, I recommend you take the False Focus feat. With this feat, you can craft yourself a make-believe Divine Focus worth up to 100gp, which removes all material component costs from your spells which cost less than the value of the False Focus.

So, you can make 4HD skeletons and zombies for free, as well as a large number of other cheap tricks (one of my faves during higher-level play, to keep your False Focus relevant is to cast Communal Stone Skin on yourself only, as it has a material component cost of 100gp per person targeted).

What book is that from?


I like the idea of the hordes. Level 6 is fine as long as I can do some stuff to survive until then. I'm not as worried able it rebuffing as their is a wizard who is all ready focused on that.

So which is better juju oracle or undead lord cleric. Focus on hordes and strong undead

[Katana1515]

I would second Ssalarns notion of a Summoner with the Skeleton Summoner feat over a Cleric/Oracle. With a suitably refluffed Eidolon you have a character who is effective right out of box and has the flavour that you are looking for, without the bookwork/DM headaches that come with Animated Undead Hordes.

[grarrrg]

So which is better juju oracle or undead lord cleric. Focus on hordes and strong undead

Cleric has _actual_ Channeling, so they can heal their minions/damage opponents, and Undead Lord gets Command Undead as a bonus feat. And you get a "bonus" minion whose HD = your class level. And also gets spell levels sooner.

But nobody out-hordes the Juju. Getting a full 50% more undead than any other class, and all Zombies made get max HP. They also can get Command Undead-only-Channeling.

Either is solid.
Pity with the allowed books that Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave) is off the table.