How would a Neo Azure City affect the Western Continent?

[Porthos]

This is spinning off a bit from the A Good Ending For The Goblin Race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?383874-A-Good-Ending-For-The-Goblin-Race) thread, but it's an entirely separate thread idea really, so I wanted to make it its own thing.

Plus it's something that I don't think has been discussed much in this forum.:smallsmile:

====

When talking about what's gonna happen with Azure City/Gobbotopia and the ragtag fleet that is now stationed off the Western Continent in the past, I've made no secret of my suspicion that things are going to remain mostly status quo. That is, the Azurites won't retake Azure City.

Whenever this subject comes up, discussion usually centers around Gobbotopia and/or what will happen to the goblinoids. It's only natural. And if people want to do that, we have the above linked thread. But I wanted to look at this from the other angle.

What happens if the Azurites stay where they are, for whatever reason?

I don't think this idea has gotten nearly enough attention. Partially, I think, because a lot of people don't seem to think it will happen. Fair enough. But I'm not really looking for discussion on that angle as there has been plenty of it. Instead presume, for the purposes of this thread, what happens if the Azurites more or less form Neo Azure City where they are presently at (which is a few kilometers off of Sandsedge).

It's not exactly a secret that the Western Continent outside of the Elven Lands is dominated by internal divisions and a series of strongmen trying to impose their will on their surroundings. Currently there is a Six Five Person Band trying to play a long game to bring the continent to a heel. There is also a nascent resistance movement which may or may not take hold.

Plopped into all of this is a highly motivated, fairly strong by the standards of the area, force. Yes, they have their divisions (as seen by all of the politicking and assassinations). But even with their divisions, they are probably more cohesive than any of their surrounding neighbors (not counting the ongoing three shell game).

They're not going to go on a conquering spree anytime soon (that doesn't appear to be their style for one thing), so I doubt many forces in the Western Continent are going to try to squish them in the short term. And they are sufficiently far away from the Vector Legion's game not to be in their crosshairs immediately.

Which makes me think they would have time to settle in and entrench themselves where they are. Rather successfully, IMO, since they appear to have been used to being a city state.

If they do, then what? Do they just become content becoming a trade port and/or minding their own business? Or do they eventually cast their eyes to all of the suffering and strife that is going on their doorstep and decide maybe something should be done about it?

After all, their old hobby (protecting their Gate before any wisenheimers pipe up :smalltongue:) is looking a little dicey right now. A new one might just be the sort of thing to give them a purpose in life.

But these are just some germs of ideas I have had about what the Azurites might do if they stick around where they are. Mostly, I'd like to hear from other folks what they think might happen if the Azurites decide to stay where they are at. Not only will it help me focus my own ideas on what might happen, but it's always good to see other perspectives on a subject. Especially one, at least IMO, that hasn't seen much discussion here.

[Keltest]

I suspect it wouldn't, for a long time. The Western Continent empires almost certainly don't know about the island theyre on, due to the abundance of unclaimed resources, and the Azurites aren't going to be traveling to the mainland for much either. They have a large fleet of fishing ships for food, the fact that there was an elven colony there implies drinking water, and anything else they need in the short term can be found on the island. The various western empires meanwhile don't appear to have anything resembling a real naval culture (likely due to the lack of real ship building trees across a vast majority of the land) so they aren't going to discover the refugees on their own either.

[ti'esar]

Well, truth be told, we'll probably never know, because the Giant doesn't really care about the geopolitics beyond the scope of the immediate story.

But that's a cop-out answer, so actually looking at this seriously, one thing I notice is that you left out any mention of the elves. They may be isolationist (and very possibly something of a paper tiger), but they are close allies of the Azurites and would likely play a significant role in whatever happens next with them.

Don't have any specific predictions of the top of my head, though.

[Porthos]

Well, truth be told, we'll probably never know, because the Giant doesn't really care about the geopolitics beyond the scope of the immediate story.

But that's a cop-out answer, so actually looking at this seriously, one thing I notice is that you left out any mention of the elves. They may be isolationist (and very possibly something of a paper tiger), but they are close allies of the Azurites and would likely play a significant role in whatever happens next with them.

Don't have any specific predictions of the top of my head, though.

I left them out because they are way on the other side of the continent and are more than a little isolationist. But I will admit I did have a few passing thoughts about them helping in some sort of way or another. For one thing, I can see them being one of the major trading partners, which would help a hypothetical Neo Azure City continue to entrench itself.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

First of all, this is an interesting topic and one that I haven't seen discussed. I think that if the Azurites were to stay on the island, they definitely wouldn't be a dominant power. They lost most of their army to the goblinoids, their nation seems to be having difficulty working together, seeing as the other nobles are too busy scheming against Hinjo, and I doubt that the people want to go out and fight anyone anyway.

With that said, while they aren't in a position to dominate physically, they may have other advantages. Since the majority of the southern half of the Western Continent is desert, having access to resources such as timber are vital (if they have access to clay, then they can build roads!). Since the site is roughly a day away from Sandsedge, trading with them won't be too hard and, depending on how much the Elves trade with the southern regions, the Azurites might be able to use this to their advantage.

I do also think that the Azurites can interfere with Tatquin's scheme, although not by warfare. However, if the Azurites choose to support the resistance movement, they could become a valuable supplier to them, ans I believe Ian said Elan's plan required some supplies. In addition, while the Azurites don't have a massive army, they do still have some warriors that they can send to help.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Honestly, the Azurites biggest effect will probably stem from being the dominant bastion of Good on the continent. They are going to end up becoming a refuge for the oppressed and likely an occasional launching pad for various reconquista movements.

On a larger scale, you've just had a significant infusion of Southern Pantheon worshipers into Western Pantheon territory. That's going to be fun to watch play out.

[Porthos]

First of all, this is an interesting topic and one that I haven't seen discussed. I think that if the Azurites were to stay on the island, they definitely wouldn't be a dominant power. They lost most of their army to the goblinoids, their nation seems to be having difficulty working together, seeing as the other nobles are too busy scheming against Hinjo, and I doubt that the people want to go out and fight anyone anyway.


Honestly, the Azurites biggest effect will probably stem from being the dominant bastion of Good on the continent. They are going to end up becoming a refuge for the oppressed and likely an occasional launching pad for various reconquista movements.

I could make a snarky joke about how the Sapphire Guard has had plenty of practice of when it comes to sending out small bands to stamp out what it considers to be troublemakers, but it actually is a decent point. Yes, the SG was decimated (though there might [and probably are] stragglers out there coming home), so it's more the Azurite forces at large here than any history of what the secret Sapphire Guard was up to on its downtime.

Still. You have a leader of a hypothetical Neo Azure City who comes from a background where small forces were regularly sent out to do, shall we say, wetwork. THAT is something they might get up to while they are entrenching/establishing themselves.


On a larger scale, you've just had a significant infusion of Southern Pantheon worshipers into Western Pantheon territory. That's going to be fun to watch play out.

Hmmm.

That's something I hadn't given any thought to.

Interesting. Good point.

Gonna chew on that one a bit, I think. :smallsmile:

[Gwynfrid]

I disagree with the premise here. I don't see how the Azurites could ever give up on their city. First, it is their city. More importantly still, they left a good portion of the population (maybe even the majority) behind, who are now suffering slavery and worse from the goblins. Hinjo will not ever allow his people to rest until that wrong is corrected. Even if the Azurite nobles successfully scheme to get rid of Hinjo, the fact remains that countless families were separated. Any ruler, even an evil one, would have to deal with their demand to save their kin; or they would lose power in short order. I can't see any possible settlement there, unless, at a minimum, the goblins renounce slavery and release their prisoners - a very unlikely proposition.

Now, it's possible that the Azurites simply fail to reclaim their homeland. In that case, it would mean they're a spent force, unable to survive as a nation.

[Porthos]

I disagree with the premise here.

And that's fine. But we've had lots of debates about how/why/can the Azurites attempt to retake their former homeland. I wanted to look at something else here. Something that I don't think has recieved enough thought.

'sides, I did make a pre-emptive comment about this sort of objection in the OP. A couple of times, actually. :smalltongue:

Still, I suppose


Now, it's possible that the Azurites simply fail to reclaim their homeland. In that case, it would mean they're a spent force, unable to survive as a nation.

is an answer in and of itself in that "How would they affect the Western Continent" would be: They won't, as if they stay where they are they'll be too ineffectual to do anything.

But can't we play along a little? Even something as outlandish as a negoitated settlement between (Neo) Azure City and Gobbotopia where the human/PC race slaves are sent across the ocean. It might be an unlikely scenario, but I can imagine it happening.

[Darth Paul]

The death of Kubota (ashes to ashes, dust to dust) may have removed the most problematic of the scheming nobles, and made the rest a little more wary ("Remember what happened to Kubota? We must bide our time..."); meaning that the Azurites may paradoxically be a more cohesive force in exile than they were at home. Their new city might grow quite powerful; new soldiers are training; some of the best survived (admittedly, most of the best perished in the throne room); meaning that the Azurites could become a force to be reckoned with; small but cohesive, like the Swiss.

The nobles might take a different path as well; they still seem to have plenty of ninjas around, and once they get word that there are 3 competing empires a stone's throw away, they might see it as a market for mercenary spies and assassins, which they would be happy to provide for, oh, shall we say 15,000 gold pieces? Or one or more noble might decide to try their hand at becoming an Emperor of a different Empire, not realizing what the Vector Legion is up to.

The possibilities are really endless in the long-long-term

[Gwynfrid]

And that's fine. But we've had lots of debates about how/why/can the Azurites attempt to retake their former homeland. I wanted to look at something else here. Something that I don't think has recieved enough thought.

Hmm, I should have guessed that this was a beaten horse. I thought the thread you linked might contain such a discussion, and I'm afraid I was too lazy to look further.



'sides, I did make a pre-emptive comment about this sort of objection in the OP. A couple of times, actually. :smalltongue:

That you did, but it didn't work. It never does :smallwink:

But you're right that my non-answer is really an answer, boiling down to this:


They won't, as if they stay where they are they'll be too ineffectual to do anything.

Actually, I would go further than that. If the Azurites stay where they are, they will collapse and eventually disappear through attrition, infighting, and defection to other nations. The mere fact that they aren't able to rescue their families and friends will be deeply demoralizing, fatally undermining any confidence they might have in their leaders, be it Hinjo or anybody else. Any emerging strong character will either lead the people into a series of attempts to reclaim the city (and be doomed to fail, if we accept your premise), or leave and become a hero independently of the nation of his/her birth.

[zimmerwald1915]

But that's a cop-out answer, so actually looking at this seriously, one thing I notice is that you left out any mention of the elves. They may be isolationist (and very possibly something of a paper tiger), but they are close allies of the Azurites and would likely play a significant role in whatever happens next with them.
Aww, you remembered!

:smallredface:


But can't we play along a little? Even something as outlandish as a negoitated settlement between (Neo) Azure City and Gobbotopia where the human/PC race slaves are sent across the ocean. It might be an unlikely scenario, but I can imagine it happening.
Outlandish is an understatement, because that's just not how slavery works. Assuming the people of Azure City proper were, say, sent into the hinterland to work the fields instead of just being killed (the bulk of them certainly aren't kicking about the city anymore), they represent a valuable resource. Perhaps the goblins' single most valuable resource. They're not gonna give that up. The Azurites have nothing comparable to offer them, except maybe the possibility of an ethnically cleansed state that the goblins know they don't have the population to support.

As for the OP, I'd just like to point out that, for purposes of any events taking place at the same time as the events we're following in the story, the Sapphire Guard per se is a non-factor. The bulk of its members are in the Northern Continent looking for Kraagor's Gate, and the rest are tied up in the state bureaucracy. Without them, the Azurites are pretty starved for high-level characters, the only people who matter in terms of being able to influence events. Shojo and Kubota both had NPC classes, and we can assume the rest of the nobility is the same, so they're out except as an economic factor (Kubota brought riches with him, the others probably did too). And maybe their retinues contain some high-level characters, though their ninjas never did seem to give Hinjo much trouble unaided.

[DaggerPen]

This is a really interesting topic, and further makes me wonder if this doesn't tie into Elan's mysterious second plan that he gave to Ian. Ian doesn't much trust Lawful typed, true, but "there's a friendly island of Azurites who'll be happy to help out friends of ours not too far thatway" is potentially useful information.

[Gwynfrid]

This is a really interesting topic, and further makes me wonder if this doesn't tie into Elan's mysterious second plan that he gave to Ian. Ian doesn't much trust Lawful typed, true, but "there's a friendly island of Azurites who'll be happy to help out friends of ours not too far thatway" is potentially useful information.

Interesting. Indeed the Azurites are in need of allies, and so is Ian. I'm not sure why you think the island is not too far away from the Empire of Blood, though.
Also I think it's not likely that Ian would read a one-page plan involving the Azurites, whom he presumably doesn't know, and instantly go "pretty good, it might work". Finally, I think Elan's idea, being, well, Elan's, has to be a little more zany than just asking Hinjo to help.

[Porthos]

This is a really interesting topic

Thanks. :smallsmile: It's rare we can actually get a fresh bone to gnaw on, so I'm glad to see there's been interest in this.

At the very least it beats the 1000th variation of all of the other threads we have on various (un)dead horse topics. :smalltongue:


and further makes me wonder if this doesn't tie into Elan's mysterious second plan that he gave to Ian. Ian doesn't much trust Lawful typed, true, but "there's a friendly island of Azurites who'll be happy to help out friends of ours not too far thatway" is potentially useful information.

Yeah, the "not trusting lawful types" is a huge stumbling block. But the "buncha goody two shoes who love to beat up tyrants and are looking for cheap XP*" might have value.

* referring to battling mooks and various sub-boss fights here, not Vector Legion itself.

====

The points made about the Snarl/Kraagor's Gate are good ones. But I tend to think that's gonna get resolved in the near future in comic time. A few weeks probably, for various reasons. I just don't think it will take months and months to resolve itself finally. So my implied thoughts on this topic is: What then?

Sure, we may never know what in great detail what happens post-Battle for the Gates. But we might get a montage or two where we get some nice hints. Or maybe we even get something like the Scouring of the Shire where there is a lengthy post-climax look at other things going on in the world. As long as the Order of the Stick is front and center, I can see a few loose ends still being tied up in that regard, even if the Snarl/Team Evil plot is tied up.

In a way, this is me looking at my claim that the Azurites won't be retaking Azure City anytime soon, and then wondering just what will the consequences of that be?

Would the Azurites just fade into history?
Would they constantly scheme to take back their lost home?
Would they try to reclaim their home, but at the same time start looking to where they are now?
Would they want to reclaim their home, but realize the futility of it and move on to something else?
None of the above? Mix? Something else entirely?

There's so many ways I could see this jumping, actually. Does vengeance rule the day? Pragmatism? Pining after lost honor? Desire to rescue/avenge their loved ones who are still behind?

If someone wants a REALLY outlandish idea, the idea of a Peace Treaty/Mutual Beneficial Extremely Temporary Alliance between Azure City and Gobbotopia might even be conceivably struck in an effort to take down Xykon/Stop The Snarl/Something-I-Have-No-Idea-I-Ain't-Writing-This. A "Free our brethren and we give up any attempt to reclaim our home" type deal.

This would in essence call Redcloak's bluff about what he wants in regards to goblinoids.

Would Redcloak ever agree to such a deal? Probably not. But maybe Jirix would. Who knows.

Those last few paragraphs probably are better suited for examination in the Best Fate for Goblins thread (and if there's any real examination of it on my end, I'll shift it over there), but I bring them up as a way of showing how the Azurites might stay where they are. Sure there's no way in hell they'd actually like this deal. But I think like left the building and headed to another plane a long time ago when it comes to the options the Azurites have. :smallwink:

[DaggerPen]

Interesting. Indeed the Azurites are in need of allies, and so is Ian. I'm not sure why you think the island is not too far away from the Empire of Blood, though.

Isn't it that island right off the coast of the Empire of Tears? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html I guess it's a good hike from the EOB itself, but it's definitely in range of the mega-empire, which is the ultimate target anyway.


Also I think it's not likely that Ian would read a one-page plan involving the Azurites, whom he presumably doesn't know, and instantly go "pretty good, it might work". Finally, I think Elan's idea, being, well, Elan's, has to be a little more zany than just asking Hinjo to help.

Valid point. It may still be a component, though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, I just thought of something else.

The hobgoblins took Azure City itself. Have they taken any of the surrounding lands? Could the Azurite forces simply pull a lateral move by going to, let's say, Robinegg and setting up camp there?

Probably something else to consider when we look at what they'll be doing in the Western Continent. Many of the forces that are left are the personal forces of the various nobles who deserted AC before the battle.

[Pyron]

Probably something else to consider when we look at what they'll be doing in the Western Continent. Many of the forces that are left are the personal forces of the various nobles who deserted AC before the battle.

Yes. It's the noble house, not Hinjo, who hold the bulk of the military power among the refugee fleet. I'm also willing to bet they hauled all the wealth they could bring in their ships. So they're the ones with the money needed to secure some important supplies needed to build the island settlement.

The only concern is the potential back-stabbing and in-fighting among the nobility. Which I don't think will be a major issue now that Kubota is no longer in the picture. The nobility on the refugee fleet has set up a council (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0586.html) where each house can vote on important issues. Note the contrast from when Shojo was in power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), who had to pretend to be senile to pass whatever law he wanted without retribution. Without derailing the thread's topic, I feel that since it seems that the noble houses have an actual voice in the island politics, there is less need for back-stabbing. Also, after being stranded in the ocean for months, made the more sensible nobles set aside their differences.

As to how build up their alliance with the Western Continent? I think it's going to be a while before they try to fight against the neighboring tyrants. Hinjo might, but if the nobility didn't feel the need to defend their home city, then they're not going to throw their lot in with a foreign conflict. In the meanwhile, I can see them building themselves up as an economic power first, depending on what resources the island can offer (or what goods the Azurite's can craft). With their fleet, they can reach a lot of ports to trade, which might be a good alternative to the caravan.

[Porthos]

Isn't it that island right off the coast of the Empire of Tears? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html I guess it's a good hike from the EOB itself, but it's definitely in range of the mega-empire, which is the ultimate target anyway.

I'd figured that the island they are on (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) isn't represented on the map since they went straight to Sandsedge, instead of, say, the Free City of Doom.

If they are on that bigger island (a Tasmania to Australia type situation), then their situation is probably a LOT better overall, as that's a hefty amount of real estate to hunker down.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Money is nice, but don't forget it's a non-renewable resource at this point. The nobles first amassed their treasuries through agriculture, trading authentic Azurite cuisine to Cliffport and the production of porn. The income streams are long gone. And quite a bit of capital was likely expended during the voyage, buying caviar, champagne and prime rib (while the peasants subsisted on rice and millet).

TLDR, expect the nobles to be a bit miserly.

[Keltest]

Money is nice, but don't forget it's a non-renewable resource at this point. The nobles first amassed their treasuries through agriculture, trading authentic Azurite cuisine to Cliffport and the production of porn. The income streams are long gone. And quite a bit of capital was likely expended during the voyage, buying caviar, champagne and prime rib (while the peasants subsisted on rice and millet).

TLDR, expect the nobles to be a bit miserly.

At the moment, the most valuable resource is going to be labor. The Azurites don't appear to have any immediate shortage of any important resource like food, but if they want it to stay that way they need to get shelters up, get people to distribute food and water, people to collect fish and forage from the island, etc... With that in mind, the individuals like Hinjo who have the goodwill of the people will have the most power. Money is going to be worthless if it cant even get you an extra food ration.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'd figured that the island they are on (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) isn't represented on the map since they went straight to Sandsedge, instead of, say, the Free City of Doom.

If they are on that bigger island (a Tasmania to Australia type situation), then their situation is probably a LOT better overall, as that's a hefty amount of real estate to hunker down.

I think that they went to Sandsedge less because it was closer and more because it was a massive center of trade, probably more so than Doom or other nearby cities. It doesn't make quite as much sense to me for them to be on a closer island because that would the Elves were extending their land kind of awkwardly.

[veti]

The Azurites have nothing comparable to offer them, except maybe the possibility of an ethnically cleansed state that the goblins know they don't have the population to support.

They may not have the population to support that right now, but they will soon. Remember, goblin generations are short - goblins breed fast. Given all their new land and food supplies, their population should be increasing very rapidly about now.


Money is nice, but don't forget it's a non-renewable resource at this point. The nobles first amassed their treasuries through agriculture, trading authentic Azurite cuisine to Cliffport and the production of porn. The income streams are long gone.

Indeed, I'd be curious to see how the Azurite society will shake down in its new environment. Would the inherent respect for nobility outweigh the fact that they're currently without visible means of support? Will it enable them to stake claims to land/other resources on their new island that will quickly rebuild their fortunes? Or will land be distributed equitably, resulting in a permanent shakeup of society and re-ordering of the noble class?

I don't see why they shouldn't resume their cooking and porn production pretty much immediately, so the wealth can be regained. But will it be regained by the same nobles who just lost it, or a new class entirely?

***

Another thing I wonder is, why is this island uninhabited? It usually takes a very pressing reason to stop people from moving into fertile land. And any monsters that are low enough level for the Azurite "peons" to deal with, should also have been within the capabilities of an expedition from the mainland.

(Assuming it even is uninhabited, of course. V thinks it is, but she hasn't checked. Humans/reptilians might well have moved in since the elves moved out. If so, how will they view the newcomers? Personally, in their shoes I'd welcome them with open arms - assuming there's plenty of spare land to support them, their arrival could only mean my land soars in value, and I suddenly have a whole bunch more people standing between me and those political lunatics that the Western Continent is famous for.)

[Amphiox]

One thing that does need considering is what the Elves do/think about the situation. The land was once theirs, and though they abandoned the colony, some factions among them may entertain claims to that territory. It is doubtful that Darth V was speaking for the entire Elven nation when she gave that territory away.

And while the Elves and Azurites are allies, that alliance was predicated on Azure City being in the a Southern Lands, and good fences make good neighbours.

Even if the Elves are ok with a new-Azurite city being built on their former territory, they may want something from the Azurites in exchange, and what that might be may impact what the Azurites end up doing.

Another thing to note is that taking back Azure City is a large scale military enterprise, and to pull that off one needs a substantial resource base. So even if the Azurites' primary goal remains retaking their homeland, they would still need to establish a power base somewhere, and their current location is as good a place as anywhere. That will, just by circumstance, tend to increase the likelihood that they will get entangled in Western Continent politics.

[Gwynfrid]

Isn't it that island right off the coast of the Empire of Tears? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html I guess it's a good hike from the EOB itself, but it's definitely in range of the mega-empire, which is the ultimate target anyway.

Ah, OK. "A few dozen kilometers from the Western Continent." Got it. Indeed that proximity may play a role.

[Pyron]

Indeed, I'd be curious to see how the Azurite society will shake down in its new environment. Would the inherent respect for nobility outweigh the fact that they're currently without visible means of support? Will it enable them to stake claims to land/other resources on their new island that will quickly rebuild their fortunes? Or will land be distributed equitably, resulting in a permanent shakeup of society and re-ordering of the noble class?

I don't think the nobility will be dissolved without a fight or without their own soldier deserting. As it stands, each of the noble house has just as many pointy sticks as Hinjo, if not more. With the loyalty of their samurai soldiers they are better equipped to provide security for the new settlement than Hinjo. If nothing else, they can claim parts of the island for themselves.


With that in mind, the individuals like Hinjo who have the goodwill of the people will have the most power.

But does Hinjo really have the goodwill of the people? This is the same guy who lost their city to invading goblins, is, possibly, keeping a lot of secrets surround from his people and whose biggest rival (a pillar of the community) mysteriously disappeared. Sure, his Elven friend teleported them to their home, but a lot of things that happened doesn't paint a good picture.

[Trickquestion]

I think they're on the verge of a lot of internal strife. The with the Goblins far out of reach (both geographically and strategically) and the desperation of fleet life at an end, there's no longer an immediate dire conflict to keep everyone acting coherent, and as we saw, back room backstabbing was still going during those two. Those simmering rivalries could escalate into full civil war, especially with the Sapphire Guard unable to act as a police force. A lot of factions with opposing beliefs on how the Azurites need to proceed are going to spring up, and the circumstances will create a lot of inflamed passions.

War hawks, isolationists, elf partitions, people who loved the Sapphire Guard, people who blamed the Sapphire Guard, people who loved/blamed Shojo, Goblin apologists, Tarquin partitions, people who think the gods have abandoned them, people who think they need to appeal to the gods more then ever, not to mention the people who will be acting purely on self interest.

The ultimate irony would be the Azurites never recover, dissolve into infighting, a become just another savage coastal tribe. Then, some untold years later, a party of adventurers lands upon their shores and kills off their descendants in search of the lost treasure rumored to reside upon this island: A mighty Holy Avenger, once wielded by a great paladin of distant times.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think you mean partisans, not partitions.

Also, as we've seen with House Kato, Hinjo is working to build a network of new nobles who are loyal to him.

[Keltest]

But does Hinjo really have the goodwill of the people? This is the same guy who lost their city to invading goblins, is, possibly, keeping a lot of secrets surround from his people and whose biggest rival (a pillar of the community) mysteriously disappeared. Sure, his Elven friend teleported them to their home, but a lot of things that happened doesn't paint a good picture.

Ah, but he has given every available resource of his to aiding the evacuation and fleet, and personally led defenses across the ships when they were attacked by monsters. Not to mention he is a paladin (color coded for convenience even), so he couldn't be directly involved with terribly many underhanded things. The nobles on the other hand hoarded their resources and abandoned Azure City even before the hobgoblin army arrived, which included stripping the defenses by taking their garrisons with them.

[veti]

I don't think the nobility will be dissolved without a fight or without their own soldier deserting. As it stands, each of the noble house has just as many pointy sticks as Hinjo, if not more. With the loyalty of their samurai soldiers they are better equipped to provide security for the new settlement than Hinjo. If nothing else, they can claim parts of the island for themselves.

I don't suggest it would "dissolve", exactly. But it will surely be showing signs of strain, and some parts will almost certainly fall at this point.

Consider, they've been at sea for months, with all those payrolls to maintain and no source of income. Some of those soldiers are probably already working on tick, and many more will be soon, unless they desert or mutiny. Sure, some of the nobles (those who had sufficiently obscene amounts of hard cash lying around when they lit out, and managed to load it onto their ships securely) will be OK, but I imagine quite a few - simply didn't have that much, or lost significant amounts to "spillage" during loading.

So it's almost certain, as I see it, that at least some of the nobles no longer have the means to enforce their claims, if contested. Will they just roll over and allow the luckier nobles to "buy them out" (the way Bill Gates "bought out" Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net)? I don't think so, I think they've probably got sufficient political nous to rally behind someone who'd want to enforce a more equitable sharing of resources in the new land. (And the obvious choice for "someone" would be Hinjo.) That way, they can get at least a chance to rebuild their fortunes.

[Pyron]

So it's almost certain, as I see it, that at least some of the nobles no longer have the means to enforce their claims, if contested. Will they just roll over and allow the luckier nobles to "buy them out" (the way Bill Gates "bought out" Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net)? I don't think so, I think they've probably got sufficient political nous to rally behind someone who'd want to enforce a more equitable sharing of resources in the new land. (And the obvious choice for "someone" would be Hinjo.) That way, they can get at least a chance to rebuild their fortunes.

But, they already have a council where the noble houses could vote on the government's policy. This system allows them to reach a consensus without resorting to back-stabbing. This seemed non-existent in Shojo's day. They're not going to surrender their voice to the same foolish prince that lead their city to ruin, and who refused to explain why Shojo was murdered or what Xykon was after.

Also, as Keltest mentioned, the most valuable resource is labor. The best people to provide the labor are able bodied folks. Most the refuges that Hinjo ordered to evacuate are children, the old and the sick. Those that survive the voyage will not be well suited to rebuild. So, the bulk of the able bodied workers will be the soldiers that swore loyalty to their noble lord and the members within the noble's house. So, what we have is a new power balance, where the nobles control the wealth, the military and the labor pool.

Sure, there will be soldiers, noblemen and peasants who might desert. But, I imagine they won't stick around on the island or revolt. Not when there is a port city where they can start over. But, if the existing power structure is going to change, then it's going away from the absolute monarchy that governed the old Azure city.


Ah, but he has given every available resource of his to aiding the evacuation and fleet, and personally led defenses across the ships when they were attacked by monsters.

We can go back and forth and list all the good things that Hinjo had done. But the fact is that Azure City fell on his shift, something that a lot of people aren't going to easily forget. So, it's highly debatable whether or not he has the goodwill of the people.


The ultimate irony would be the Azurites never recover, dissolve into infighting, a become just another savage coastal tribe. Then, some untold years later, a party of adventurers lands upon their shores and kills off their descendants in search of the lost treasure rumored to reside upon this island: A mighty Holy Avenger, once wielded by a great paladin of distant times.

Bonus irony points if it's a party of goblin adventurers.

[veti]

But, they already have a council where the noble houses could vote on the government's policy. This system allows them to reach a consensus without resorting to back-stabbing. This seemed non-existent in Shojo's day. They're not going to surrender their voice to the same foolish prince that lead their city to ruin, and who refused to explain why Shojo was murdered or what Xykon was after.

And what incentive, exactly, does someone like House Kubota (for instance) have to listen to a council of has-been nobles with no (current) visible means of support? These nobles (I posit) are currently in the unaccustomed position of being "have-nots" rather than "haves", and that's a radical change of perspective. People in that position often discover a sudden love of justice, fairness and equality, even if they hadn't previously appreciated the importance of those ideals.


Also, as Keltest mentioned, the most valuable resource is labor.

I beg to differ: the most valuable resource is land. (Well, neither one is really worth much without the other. When they were at sea, they had all the labour you could want, but no way to use it. Now they've found land, the question of who specifically gets to own it - and thus collect rent from everyone else - is going to become very, very important. In a feudal economy, "land" absolutely equals "wealth".)


So, the bulk of the able bodied workers will be the soldiers that swore loyalty to their noble lord and the members within the noble's house. So, what we have is a new power balance, where the nobles control the wealth, the military and the labor pool.

That "oath of loyalty" is a two-way thing, though. The boss promises you certain benefits - protection, pay, recognition, legal rights - in return for your loyalty. If they're no longer able to keep their side of the deal - you could certainly defend the case that the vassal isn't obligated to keep theirs. (Of course the lord might disagree, and that exact topic has been the subject of some very vigorous debates in the past...)


Sure, there will be soldiers, noblemen and peasants who might desert. But, I imagine they won't stick around on the island or revolt. Not when there is a port city where they can start over.

If they went to a port city on the western continent, they'd be - basically, hobos. Landless, penniless, no history, no family, no connections. And foreigners to boot, unfamiliar with society, history, law or customs. The lowest of the low. They'd be lucky to survive a month.

If they stay where they are - they keep their social recognition, they remain in an environment where they're familiar with the laws and customs, and they get a chance of a patch of land to call their own - something I promise that nobody is going to just give them, on the mainland. I daresay a few misfits might leave, but for the vast majority they'd be much, much better off staying with their own people.

[zimmerwald1915]

I beg to differ: the most valuable resource is land. (Well, neither one is really worth much without the other. When they were at sea, they had all the labour you could want, but no way to use it. Now they've found land, the question of who specifically gets to own it - and thus collect rent from everyone else - is going to become very, very important. In a feudal economy, "land" absolutely equals "wealth".)
In a feudal economy, land was only as valuable as the people bound or quasi-bound to it. And I'm having a very hard time imagining the common Azurites being anything other than free at this point.

[The Patterner]

Also, as Keltest mentioned, the most valuable resource is labor. The best people to provide the labor are able bodied folks. Most the refuges that Hinjo ordered to evacuate are children, the old and the sick. Those that survive the voyage will not be well suited to rebuild. So, the bulk of the able bodied workers will be the soldiers that swore loyalty to their noble lord and the members within the noble's house. So, what we have is a new power balance, where the nobles control the wealth, the military and the labor pool.


We can go back and forth and list all the good things that Hinjo had done. But the fact is that Azure City fell on his shift, something that a lot of people aren't going to easily forget. So, it's highly debatable whether or not he has the goodwill of the people.


Do they really control the military? Hinjo might have lost Azure city in the eyes of the general populace, but the soldiers (and their commanders) will know that this was due to the nobles running for the hills. In a choice between a tested military commander who is willing to fight, and squabbling politicians who lost them their homeland the nobles have a very weak position.

However, if the nobility play it smart and focus on rebuilding, creating loyalties through rewards and working for the greater good. Then they could quickly regain their old power. It comes down to potential gains vs potential loss.

The nobles have nothing to gain from an armed conflict, best case scenario puts them roughly were they are now and worst case results in a complete loss of power/head on their shoulder. In the end Hinjo might actually have more to gain from an armed conflict since worst case he dies, but if he wins he will be in a very powerful position.

[Darth Paul]

Do they really control the military? Hinjo might have lost Azure city in the eyes of the general populace, but the soldiers (and their commanders) will know that this was due to the nobles running for the hills.

Kubota did not seem to think this, nor did his soldiers (the few that we saw, anyway). He stated outright that once Hinjo was dead, he would take over the leadership role and retake the city. Certainly he badly underestimated the threat Team Evil posed, but we the readers know that, not neccesarily the line soldiers. Kubota most likely was planning on another assassination plot if bribery failed, but the propaganda he fed his troops would have left out those little details.

Actually, post-Xykon and Redcloak, Gobbotopia is considerably weaker and, once Team Evil is definitively destroyed (assuming that is the final ending of the OOTS story), might seem ripe for reconquest, if the Azurites could find allies willing to help them. Most of DStP saw them sailing around trying to get their old allies to assist them, and failing. Now they are adjacent to a continent with not one, not two, but three mighty empires, any of which might be willing to assist the Azurites in regaining their homeland- once someone (*coughElanandIancough*) put their rulers wise to the plots of the Vector Legion and helped them free themselves from their schemes.

And remember, there are Elves out there who will want revenge for their murdered brethren. (Even if said brethren were kind of jerks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html))

So the main activity of the Azurites on the Western Continent might be diplomacy, trying to forge an alliance with someone who is willing to help them retake their homeland, in exchange for all the noodles and porn they want in perpetuity.

[Scarlet Knight]

So the main activity of the Azurites on the Western Continent might be diplomacy, trying to forge an alliance with someone who is willing to help them retake their homeland, in exchange for all the noodles and porn they want in perpetuity.

They're Azurites: they don't make porn...they make "Blue Movies".

[Emperordaniel]

Most of DStP saw them sailing around trying to get their old allies to assist them, and failing.

Even said old allies might join in the alliance, since their main stated reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) for not assisting the Azurites militarily was because they feared Xykon targeting them next. With him out of the way, that would no longer be an issue.

[Pyron]

And what incentive, exactly, does someone like House Kubota (for instance) have to listen to a council of has-been nobles with no (current) visible means of support? These nobles (I posit) are currently in the unaccustomed position of being "have-nots" rather than "haves", and that's a radical change of perspective. People in that position often discover a sudden love of justice, fairness and equality, even if they hadn't previously appreciated the importance of those ideals.

The mere fact that Kubota wanted to win the vote of the council does suggest that they do have visible means of support. So does the fact that Hinjo couldn't lift a finger against Kubota without having others them turn against him. There is nothing to support the notion that the nobles lost all their power.


If they went to a port city on the western continent, they'd be - basically, hobos. Landless, penniless, no history, no family, no connections. And foreigners to boot, unfamiliar with society, history, law or customs. The lowest of the low. They'd be lucky to survive a month.

I suppose your right. It's a shame that Hinjo commended so many of people to death when he off-loaded those refugees to his southern allies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).


Do they really control the military? Hinjo might have lost Azure city in the eyes of the general populace, but the soldiers (and their commanders) will know that this was due to the nobles running for the hills. In a choice between a tested military commander who is willing to fight, and squabbling politicians who lost them their homeland the nobles have a very weak position.

Yes they do. The forces they took on their personal ships were soldiers who were loyal to them, and whose lives were saved when the nobles ordered them to withdraw. These nobles would have also explained to their Samurais (ie, loyal commanders) that they withdrew because they saw a battle that was not winnable, and Hinjo refused to entertain any alternatives.


The nobles have nothing to gain from an armed conflict, best case scenario puts them roughly were they are now and worst case results in a complete loss of power/head on their shoulder. In the end Hinjo might actually have more to gain from an armed conflict since worst case he dies, but if he wins he will be in a very powerful position.

Hinjo strongly disagrees. The whole reason he refused to do anything against Kubota was because even accusing him of foul play would have resulted in a civil war. This suggests that the nobility had enough soldiers to fight back if Hinjo over stepped his bounds.

Worse case scenerio; he dies, a whole bunch of people on both sides dies in a needless conflict, and the surviving nobility will rebuild Azure Island (or the people, as a whole, will be unable to recover). Finally, fighting his own people when they've lost everything is not really Hinjo's MO. Is it? An armed conflict doesn't benefit anyone.

[Brumagris]

Very interesting topic and very interesting points of view explained!

I believe that, despite of the noble class, Hinjo is a strong enough leader to gain the love of the citizenship. That said, and considering that he was asigning nobility to people loyal to him in order to counter Kubota, he has a powerful base for ruling in the island they are right now.

It is true that most of the noblemen followed Kubota, yet we are hitting the key word: followed. Their natural leader is dead, after opposing Hinjo. They are not natural leaders by themselves (rulers yes, not leaders) and will look for someone that grants stability and power. That, by definition, would be Hinjo, in my opinion (as we say in my country, when the ship sinks the rats are the first ones leaving).

Now, considering the situation of the Azurites, it is obvious that their former government style is gone. The SG as such is finished, the population is drastically reduced and the noblemen are loosing their credibility quickly, since they don´t have actual richess to base it on, whereas "hands on" leaders are still skilled leaders. What I see as a natural development is to keep their alliance with the elven in order to settle in the island. Considering the elven are by definition CG and the island was abandoned, that should not represent a problem.

Afterwards, a possible movement would be to take part in the continent politics, if not by pure force, at least by supporting the adequate factions. It was mentioned that the ninjas can be hired as mercenaries and spies, but I don´t think that would represent the position of the Azurite nation as such. Honestly, I see them supporting vanquished governments and partisans (Ian and company for example) and forging long term alliances, which would prove helpful when trying to reconquering Azure city.
(question from a not very experienced rol player: would supporting brigands an rebels be considered a CG act or, as it is opposing invading nations, still a LG, from the Azurite point of view?. To make it simple: if Hinjo supports the rebels, would that be a CG or a LG act as per the Western continent politics?)

Would they try to do help and afterwards ask for help? for me, it is sure. Not just because it is their home country (and for the noblemen the best way to recover their former status and power as well, which may be a factor for them supporting Hinjo right now), but because of the culture it represents. Being followers of the Southern gods, it is but natural to the Azurites to go back to the lands under their divinities influence. Would it be soon? I don´t think so. Will they try? Yes, they will.

Since we are here, I have a semirelated question that just came to my mind reading you guys talking about the Southern gods. How would it affect the Azurite paladins and clerics spells the fact that they are established in a land beyond the reach of their gods? Considering that the full nation as such will stay for long term in a different continent (it is not at all like an adventuring party), would that become a problem for them and their prayers to be heard? Would their gods have the power to grant the spells? Would the Southern gods hire the Western gods as a third party supplier?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Technically, the divine casters shouldn't be affected. As shown in SoD (we refer to that a lot, don't we?), clerics were essentially created to allow the gods to have some influence in areas run by the other pantheons, primarily through seeing to the deity's interests (or as they put it, taking care of something affecting my lands that happens to be based in your lands). Note that Durkon had no difficulties acting in either the Southern or Western lands despite working for the Northern pantheon.

[Brumagris]

Technically, the divine casters shouldn't be affected. As shown in SoD (we refer to that a lot, don't we?), clerics were essentially created to allow the gods to have some influence in areas run by the other pantheons, primarily through seeing to the deity's interests (or as they put it, taking care of something affecting my lands that happens to be based in your lands). Note that Durkon had no difficulties acting in either the Southern or Western lands despite working for the Northern pantheon.

Fair enough for travellers, who are not settling colonies in other Gods territories. However, here we would be talking about a long staying colony of worshippers of Southern gods in Western territory, thus spreading Southern religion in Western influence area.
Granted that the Southern gods listen to their prayers, wouldn´t that provoque an issue with the Western gods? wouldn´t the Western gods take this as an offense, perhaps?

[Keltest]

Fair enough for travellers, who are not settling colonies in other Gods territories. However, here we would be talking about a long staying colony of worshippers of Southern gods in Western territory, thus spreading Southern religion in Western influence area.
Granted that the Southern gods listen to their prayers, wouldn´t that provoque an issue with the Western gods? wouldn´t the Western gods take this as an offense, perhaps?

As far as we have seen, unless the Southern Gods start causing non-spell type miracles they are perfectly within their rights to have worshipers there for however long they want to stay there.

[The Patterner]

Yes they do. The forces they took on their personal ships were soldiers who were loyal to them, and whose lives were saved when the nobles ordered them to withdraw. These nobles would have also explained to their Samurais (ie, loyal commanders) that they withdrew because they saw a battle that was not winnable, and Hinjo refused to entertain any alternatives.



Hinjo strongly disagrees. The whole reason he refused to do anything against Kubota was because even accusing him of foul play would have resulted in a civil war. This suggests that the nobility had enough soldiers to fight back if Hinjo over stepped his bounds.

Worse case scenerio; he dies, a whole bunch of people on both sides dies in a needless conflict, and the surviving nobility will rebuild Azure Island (or the people, as a whole, will be unable to recover). Finally, fighting his own people when they've lost everything is not really Hinjo's MO. Is it? An armed conflict doesn't benefit anyone.

No they don't. The commanders can explain however much they want that the soldiers survived thanks to the nobility. The fact remains that these soldiers saw their land being overrun and destroyed by their enemies while they could not do anything about it. The reason they could not do anything were due to these noblemen who bravely took to the hills.

Sorry, not buying it, that would create resentment and disloyality.

And also, Hinjo would never start a civil war, I have never suggested that he would, but the nobility has more to loose in an armed conflict then him. Besides, they don't have a leader, we can't speak of them as one unified group.

And being as this is DnD, how many low level warriors do you need to take on a small force of high level paladins a be sure to win?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Fair enough for travellers, who are not settling colonies in other Gods territories. However, here we would be talking about a long staying colony of worshippers of Southern gods in Western territory, thus spreading Southern religion in Western influence area.
Granted that the Southern gods listen to their prayers, wouldn´t that provoque an issue with the Western gods? wouldn´t the Western gods take this as an offense, perhaps?

The agreement between the gods was just that they themselves would not directly interfere. Their worshippers are allowed to do as they please. If the gods could intervene every time someone else's religion was being spread in their are of influence, Azure City wouldn't have fallen.

[Tvtyrant]

No they don't. The commanders can explain however much they want that the soldiers survived thanks to the nobility. The fact remains that these soldiers saw their land being overrun and destroyed by their enemies while they could not do anything about it. The reason they could not do anything were due to these noblemen who bravely took to the hills.

Sorry, not buying it, that would create resentment and disloyality.

And also, Hinjo would never start a civil war, I have never suggested that he would, but the nobility has more to loose in an armed conflict then him. Besides, they don't have a leader, we can't speak of them as one unified group.

And being as this is DnD, how many low level warriors do you need to take on a small force of high level paladins a be sure to win?
Tens of thousands. More if they have their clerics and wizards with them.

[The Patterner]

Tens of thousands. More if they have their clerics and wizards with them.

Yeah. We can pretty much drop the whole discussion regarding the nobles military strenght then. They really have nothing to gain from an armed conflict.

[DaggerPen]

Hang on, how high is high level? While they have been gaining XP, I got the impression the ones who weren't in the throne room were fairly low level, far and few between and, most importantly, largely at the final Gate atm.

[Keltest]

Hang on, how high is high level? While they have been gaining XP, I got the impression the ones who weren't in the throne room were fairly low level, far and few between and, most importantly, largely at the final Gate atm.

Hinjo at least was second only to Miko in power, and Miko was able to single handedly take down the Order of the Stick twice (and at least once was completely legitimately, under nothing but her own power). Now, the other paladins may or may not have been anywhere near Miko's level, but they have been gaining experience since then, and I am skeptical that any group of fighters the nobles have in reserve are out there actively gaining XP.

so in the end, we have no idea! But any loyalists to Hinjo are going to be individually far superior to the grunts of the nobles.

[veti]

In a feudal economy, land was only as valuable as the people bound or quasi-bound to it. And I'm having a very hard time imagining the common Azurites being anything other than free at this point.

Peasants aren't "bound to land" just because they're forced by some external... force to stay there.

(Well, OK, they often were, but really that's just gravy.) What mostly keeps them there is the same thing that keeps you and me going back to our respective homes every evening. It's where we live - where else would we go?

That tie is correspondingly much stronger for people who grow their own food on their own land, and don't have any appreciable amount of anything that could be called "money".


The mere fact that Kubota wanted to win the vote of the council does suggest that they do have visible means of support. So does the fact that Hinjo couldn't lift a finger against Kubota without having others them turn against him. There is nothing to support the notion that the nobles lost all their power.

In the first place, that was then. The Azurites were still bobbing about the ocean, nobody knew where they were going, and a lot of them were probably still thinking they'd be able to go home sooner rather than later. Their society was basically in stasis for as long as they were landless, because there was no point in anyone trying to change it then.

In the second place, of course both Kubota and Hinjo would rather work within established power structures. They're both Lawful, and anyway, using what's there already - provided you know how it works - is a heck of a lot easier than junking it and starting over.

In the third place, nobody is suggesting that the nobles lose all their power. I'm arguing that a major pillar of that power - the nobles' land holdings - has been removed. That will weaken them. By how much, exactly, depends on all kinds of things, but many of those "things" are going to vary a lot from one noble to another. Those who are better liked by their underlings/more charismatic personally, might have an easier time commanding personal loyalty and respect on a low budget. Those who had a lot of gold lying around when the crisis broke, will still be able to pay their underlings. But these conditions will vary from person to person. Everything is not as it was before.


I suppose your right. It's a shame that Hinjo commended so many of people to death when he off-loaded those refugees to his southern allies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).

There is a world of difference between being admitted as part of a government-sanctioned settlement scheme, and just turning up out of the blue. It's similar to the difference between "refugees" and "illegal immigrants".


The forces they took on their personal ships were soldiers who were loyal to them, and whose lives were saved when the nobles ordered them to withdraw. These nobles would have also explained to their Samurais (ie, loyal commanders) that they withdrew because they saw a battle that was not winnable, and Hinjo refused to entertain any alternatives.

The forces they took on their personal ships were their personal forces, no more. So they (indirectly) recruited, trained, equipped and - mark this - paid them. When soldiers go unpaid for a while, their loyalty tends to decline quite rapidly.


Worse case scenerio; he dies, a whole bunch of people on both sides dies in a needless conflict, and the surviving nobility will rebuild Azure Island (or the people, as a whole, will be unable to recover). Finally, fighting his own people when they've lost everything is not really Hinjo's MO. Is it? An armed conflict doesn't benefit anyone.

Considered like that, an armed conflict never benefits anyone. But it depends what the alternative is. If the nobles are on the point of fighting among themselves anyway, or if House Kubota is poised to become the absolute tyrants of the whole island, Hinjo might consider the price worth paying. Sure that's speculative, but then so's this whole thread.

[Keltest]

Peasants aren't "bound to land" just because they're forced by some external... force to stay there.

(Well, OK, they often were, but really that's just gravy.) What mostly keeps them there is the same thing that keeps you and me going back to our respective homes every evening. It's where we live - where else would we go?

That tie is correspondingly much stronger for people who grow their own food on their own land, and don't have any appreciable amount of anything that could be called "money"

Actually, peasants weren't bound to the land at all. While they did not own the land, they were free to leave without harassment if the conditions of their local lord became intolerable. Serfs on the other hand were bound to the land for one reason or another, and attempting to leave to go work somewhere else was basically illegal for them.

However, its quite likely that a vast number of the refugees are neither of those. Remember, Azure City was just that: a city. We have no idea what proportion of dirt farmers (and food farmers, I suppose) managed to flee their lands in time to avoid the invading forces, however im willing to bet that amongst the refugees, merchants, laborers and, of course, various sailors all outnumber the peasants.

Now this is of course all speculation, but it strikes me as unlikely that any significant number of those groups are just going to accept the nobles' word that the nobles own the land that theyre living on and pay taxes and whatnot just because the nobles say so.