Remaking the Citadel of Drezen, of the Sword of Valor module [spoilers!]

[Kol Korran]

Hey there folks. Some of you may know my campaign journal dealing with DMing the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, and though this thread deals with that to an extent, it is also a more general thread. I have read across the web that this part of the Sword of Valor feels... disappointing, too easy, and not such a good experience. I aim to change that with my group, and I hope that through combined efforts and brainstorming, we can compose quite a few ideas of how to better this final part.

So my goals in this thread are:
1) Find ways to make this part more enticing, thrilling, engaging and challenging.
2) As a side step, better fit it ti my party.

Ok, now that's settled, what re we dealing with really? Well, As I see it, Paizo wanted a big dungeon crawl at the end, and though they had a good concept, the execution is... lacking to my opinion. Here re some issues I find problematic:
1) There is no tension here. This is the end of the campaign, the party should feel stressed, hyped, s if everything depends on this, and yet they can pretty much explore the place at their leisure, retreat when they wish and so on. The dungeon spans over all of the 8th level and some of the 9th (maybe they level up at the end? I didn't calculate). This doesn't feel like a fast paced cinematic end scene of the movie, but rather like dredge work.

2) Also, the dungeon is very... haphazard. It feels messy, without any good direction. I haven't played in it, but it looks like some weird and strange architecture (And where is Aponavicius the merilith's room?) It looks to me like the characters will be wandering and poking into rooms to see if something is there. What is worse- that in many places there is nothing there. Too many blank spaces on the map...

3) And speaking about poking your head to check for things, there are quite a lot of "Low CR battles for the sake of battle alone" (And to pamper the XP ledger) which feel... redundant to me. Again, if this is the end cinematic chapter, do you really want to read about the party wiping 3 more mooks here, 4 more mooks there, and so on? I'm ok with "fights for the sake of fights" if they are the minority of the encounter, there are too many of them here though. I feel like if all that XP could be channeled to more interesting stuff, it could make the game time much more enjoyable.

4) The two main opponents- Staunton Vhane and the Shadow demon: EVERYONE who played the module considered these a joke (Staunton considerably more than the shadow demon, who could pose some challenge with some modifications). Staunton is usually wiped in 1-2 rounds, the shadow demon a bit more. My min problem with Staunton however is that he is the main antagonist in the campaign, why is he treated so regularly? Why not make him special (Beyond giving him PC stats and equipment. Really!) And why is he met before the shadow demon? The shadow demon has NO build up whatsoever, the party meets it and goes "oh, another monster" and kills it with NO emotional investment whatsoever. Quite disappointing...

5) There are a slew of potentially interesting encounters (The succubus dualist, the barbarian chief, Staunton's brother, the witch that tries to bring down the house, the vampire assassin and so on) Which are not expanded upon sufficiently. I see a lot of potential in them, but they all work sort of on their own, not as parts or experience increases of this entire chapter. Interesting but tricky potential here.

So, I've had quite a few ideas of how to change things. Some of these are tied to the story build up I've made in my campaign, but I think the main ideas could be imported to other campaigns as well. I'd love to discuss ideas, mine or yours, and think of how to better fit stuff.

So this is the basic of my idea... (So far at least)
I intend to make the entire citadel one ongoing rolling encounter. The key points are to tie the entire citadel to Staunton, and make him a repeating harassing opponent through out the exploration, and also make the exploring a rushed and tense experience, with a time limit/ heavy motivation to move on. How?

Staunton IS the citadel.

I'll explain. The idea is that for soem reason (Either Aponavicius wasn't pleased with him, or maybe as a perverted guardian trap made by Areelu Vorlesh herself), Staunton was turned into a ghost, that became both the guardian and the prisoner of the citadel. He haunts the citadel- it's walls, ceilings, floors, dungeons and so on. He looks like a dwarf warrior chained by many ghostly chains to many places in the citadel (Inspired by the image of Kore the Paladin from the Goblins comic. Tanks Thunt! Last panel, only tied to walls instead of heads (http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042014/) :smalltongue:)

But the citadel was turned into a trap, and Staunton at the center of it. Vorlesh, Aponavicius, or even Staunton Vhane himself, crafty enough in the ways of mortal anticipated the party's entrance, and have kept the Sword of Valor as bait. As the party enters the citadel some event happens, and starts the clock ticking. Some Ideas I have:

Some barrier prevents the characters leaving, and slowly crashes the citadel inside, making it slowly sort of implode? (Not a physics major).
Staunton himself starts tearing and collapsing the place on itself, pulling the walls and crashing the place on itself.
Some sort of a curse/ effect starts killing or such the forces in the armies outside. A barrier may exist again to prevent the characters going out to save their troops- only way is in. Staunton wishes to unnerve the party by having their actions cost lives.
All together? :smallwink:

As the party explores the citadel, Staunton is always with them in spirit- sometime metaphorically, sometimes literally- at times he just taunts them, converse with them, debates and so on. I still need to work on this, but this is a great tool to show his character, have a build up to his fall, to his story, and show the bigger picture. It can get the players more invested in him then "just a villain at the end". If so, Staunton Vhane needs to be build up flavor wise much more than in the module. But I think this is an aspect of the module the party might greatly like, as it enables them to play their characters more ad well. I need to find major themes to him, but Loss, acceptance of his role in demon kind, hope vs. futility, the meaning of heroism, and himself being at once a servant, a prisoner, a tool, a disciple of sort can be interesting enough.

At times though he opposes the party more directly- either by affecting the citadel (I think to flavor it of him pulling on his chains) at times he might bolster enemies encountered, and at others he might even manifest part of himself (A less strong version, of 3 CRs less or so) or possess some enemy, statue or structure. The party could learn of some of his abilities through this, and understand that he cannot simply be destroyed, but something more complicated must happen.

This is the basic concept. A main problem is that the module (And Campaign) assume the party faces enough challenges for a level + of experience, which means there are probably rests (Rope trick won't fully help, as the destructive event will continue. One possible solution is to say "screw it! Mythic heroes? They should know to save resources!" But really, I've rarely met such players... Another would be to lessen the encounters, maybe make fewer but more difficult ones? Not sure... I don't have a good idea here...

Some other considerations and Ideas:
- I think simplifying the citadel to less rooms, but bigger in scope (Thinking of small halls) Might go quite nicely. I think it will make the citadel make sense more, and feel more grand perhaps? And not just rectangular rooms (Boring!), Should try to make something more interesting with them.

- I see Staunton In some huge underground compound, possibly with statues he can possess and fight from, or the entire room filled with blocks of stones held aloft (As if by telekinesis) by his chains, and him hurling masses of them at the players (A bit of a different version of "rocks fall, everyone dies". I will need to work on him, but thinking of making him a ghost of CR 12 and tier 4.

- I would like that the solving of the destructive event should be more than just killing Staunton, but solving some sort of a mystery/ puzzle in the citadel (But not a riddle kind of puzzle, think a sort of a murder-mystery puzzle, only much faster). In a way I think it would be interesting to theme the puzzle over "freeing" Staunton.

- The Shadow demon: He will probably be a bit weaker than the module but I want the meeting with him to be more meaningful than just "another battle". Two major concepts that come to mind is his possession of a friend (Aron Kir in the module, a mentor of one of my PCs in my campaign). The prospect of fighting a friend, and the possibility that they might not be savable is a very intriguing one. Another concept that I think might be interesting is that the demon is a key feature in Staunton's imprisonment somehow. I'd love the idea of the theme of shadow somehow playing a role here. I'm not sure yet how to run it. Encounter wise I'm thinking of some "Hall of shadows"- A huge hall with powerful darkness/ Shadow (Maybe resistant to light spells, maybe even darkvision), and more shadows in the hall. Some are the undead creatures, some are remains of past people/ demons/ crusaders, some are mere illusions. I think there might enrich the battle (After some prior interaction I hope?) quite a deal. I'd love to have some of these shadows come from the PCs former lives, and maybe they have to find what is the real, what's not real, and what's the difference? (A node of respect to Terry Pratchet's Discworld and witches) Not quite sure how to pull this yet.

- I'd love to use some of the other interesting NPCs (Basically those that have stats). I'll need to think of how to do this.
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Anyway, these are my ideas so far. What do you think? What are your ideas? Experiences? Suggestions and thoughts?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Why would a citadel prevent people from leaving but not entering? Doesn't make sense as a design. Plus, there's no effect I know of that could do that with no chance of failure.
2) Why destroy the citadel just to capture or kill a bunch of 8th level guys? That's about the power level of a Vrock and a CR 24 marilith warlord should have hundreds of those at least.
3) If you had a curse that could kill the crusaders outside, why wait to use it? Makes no sense.


A few options that make more sense;

Actual citadel:
Real castles have defenders. Hundreds of them. Make citadel Drezen a real fight for the PCs by providing a very large number of mooks that are not very tough individually but provide a challenge through numbers. Said mooks also prepare traps against the pcs like having rooms with portcullis keeping the pcs in while allowing arrows to be shot through, or burning oil or poisonous fumes to fill the room. Also, everyone in the citadel would be aware of the pcs and running to attack them; they would not wait for the pcs to go room by room.

The trap:
The ghost and shadow demon aren't in the castle proper. They're in a Magnificent Mansion trap. Usually used for utility, this spell provides a large extradimensional space whose exact floor plan is up to the caster and whose only point of entry or exit is under the castle's control. Force the PCs to enter it to get what they want, close the door behind them. They then find themselves in a totally dark, cramped maze made up of subsequent prison cells. Incorporeal opponents (such as the bad guys) have no problem moving around and attacking the PCs but the PCs can't move freely and have to deal with the impediments. Moreover, the inside of the trap is Unhallowed, meaning it confers magic circle vs good to all inside plus bonus vs turning/rebuking and you have Dispel Magic permanently tied to it so every magic effect the PCs cast is subject to dispelling (unless they're chaotic evil followers of Deskari - which the bad guys are). Furthermore, there is a cache of healing magic at the heart of the place so the Shadow Demon and the ghost can execute hit-and-run tactics on the PCs then go back and recover. The longer it takes the PCs to get there and defeat them, the more attacks they'll have suffered and the less loot (in the form of healing magic) will they find.
Last but not least, the PCs end up trapped in an extradimensional space without an exit (for them) but to which demons may enter if they want to. So after they win, they have to survive subsequent demonic attacks until the duration of the trap runs out.

The sword:
Unless the PCs manage to interrogate the shadow demon somehow, they don't find out that the sword has actually been buried in some place beneath the castle. They then have to use their knowledge: architecture/dungeoneering to find out which portion of the castel's foundations looks sufficiently newly constructed for the sword to be hidden beneath. The bad guys would have no trouble retrieving it thanks to teleport object spells but the PCs must dig it out. If they don't have the skills, they or the crusade must tear the castle apart trying to find it since they have no idea where to look - something which both takes large amounts of time AND forces them to ruin the hard-won citadel with their own hands.

[Kol Korran]

Hey Belial_the_Leveler! Thanks for the response. Some ideas I like, some less. Let me respond


1) Why would a citadel prevent people from leaving but not entering? Doesn't make sense as a design. Plus, there's no effect I know of that could do that with no chance of failure.
2) Why destroy the citadel just to capture or kill a bunch of 8th level guys? That's about the power level of a Vrock and a CR 24 marilith warlord should have hundreds of those at least.
3) If you had a curse that could kill the crusaders outside, why wait to use it? Makes no sense.
I'm not usre if you know the campaign or not, some things you wrote makes me think you do, some less). So I'm adding a very brief background and explanation:

In the first module the PCs rise from anonymity to saviors of Mendev (One of the countries fighting the demon nation). They do so by destroying the country's defense system, a set of huge pillar charged with tons of divine energy, which the demons (Especially the arch half demon witch Areelu Vorlesh) sought to corrupt and turn against the country. In the process they have:
1) caused a massive divine burst which killed thousands of demons.
2) Faced the above mentioned Areelu Vorlesh, and managed through the use of the defense system to severely wound her and make her flee.
3) The defense system's last reserves of power set within the PCs, charging them with unique divine energy, or in game terms- mythic tiers.

In short, the PCs are seen as a new, highly dangerous, unpredictable and unknown player on the field. This is why the demons wish to capture/ kill them (Perhaps corrupt them), but preferably without endangering oneself in direct conflict (Areelu Vorlesh is one of the most powerful minions of Deskari, probably second to him, I haven't read the late modules yet). The main reasons a Balor or such hven't teleported to face the party are the said fear, the involvement of them in the fighting which suddenly has a few thousands demons less, and lastly- infighting and scheming within the demon ranks. Some would love to see Areelu fall so low.

In the second module (The one I'm speaking of), The party takes an army and marches to lay siege to Drezen, to get a magical banner called The Sword of Valor. There are quite a few cases of Mass Combat (I've done my own thing with this, I won't get into this now) Which ends with the PCs' armies fighting the enemy armies guarding the fort, and then entering it. At this point the module makes some lame excuse that the regular soldiers are inefficient within the confined walls of the citadel, and it's high CR monsters, so the PCs are urged to go in dungeon crawl style. So when they enter the citadel, the low level mooks have already been killed and done for.

About the barrier: In my Idea, the barrier is built SPECIFICALLY for the trap. It's supposed to let people with mythic power in, but not out. You are right that there is no direct power that qualifies as such, but the campaign has allready had a few things which were unique to it, and the existence of mythic characters and monsters are unique as well, so this can be something of the sort too. It could come from Areelu Vorlesh powers, Minahgo (Another demon mentioned, with the power to make a wish), Or be considered a specifically crafted powerful "Magic item" that functions as such. There is no real limit to them.

I am thinking that the barrier might give another explanation why regular troops can't enter- it enables only mythical powered characters in, but then as the trap is sprung, it "hardens", and prevent them getting out. I agree that it need not be foolproof (My players are smart enough to find a way out) which is why I am more prone to also inflicting some kind of a mass curse/ rapidly moving disease or such that affect the troops. This could be an even more powerful incentive possibly.

Why wait with the curse to kill the crusders? First of all, Thee could be limitations on the magic- distance (Staunton Vhane in my rendering is bound to the area of the fort only, he cannot attack beyond it), It might have also affected their own troops (The demons have human cultists amongst them), but most importantly- it is part of the trap. The crusader army's death means little to the demons, not when they have the PCs so close- they are the target. Had the army died way out, the PCs would have turned tail and ran or such. But if they re now captured in the trap? Knowing that the army slowly dies, makes them move faster, plan less, make mistakes... and this is what the demons are counting on.

I hope that was clear. I will try to answer your suggestions now.


A few options that make more sense;

Actual citadel:
Real castles have defenders. Hundreds of them. Make citadel Drezen a real fight for the PCs by providing a very large number of mooks that are not very tough individually but provide a challenge through numbers. Said mooks also prepare traps against the pcs like having rooms with portcullis keeping the pcs in while allowing arrows to be shot through, or burning oil or poisonous fumes to fill the room. Also, everyone in the citadel would be aware of the pcs and running to attack them; they would not wait for the pcs to go room by room.

I hope I've explained about this a bit- the defenders allready fought the armies outside. In the original module there are about 500, in my version closer to 1,000.


The trap:
The ghost and shadow demon aren't in the castle proper. They're in a Magnificent Mansion trap. Usually used for utility, this spell provides a large extradimensional space whose exact floor plan is up to the caster and whose only point of entry or exit is under the castle's control. Force the PCs to enter it to get what they want, close the door behind them. They then find themselves in a totally dark, cramped maze made up of subsequent prison cells. Incorporeal opponents (such as the bad guys) have no problem moving around and attacking the PCs but the PCs can't move freely and have to deal with the impediments.

I like the idea of an extra dimensional place. And I like the idea of it being built on the theme of a prison. It could be Staunton's own prison, sort of his mind? His soul? Not sure. But a mallable highly thematic final stretch could work very nicely.

The Shadow demon is supposed to be a separate encounter (A seperate mythical challenge). It is intriguing to put them both in the same arena, but I don't I feel the shadow demon should be it's own thing. Dealing with it might enable getting INTO the extradimensional place, Staunton's prison. As such, the shadow demon might be his jailor perhaps? A prison made out of thoughts and shadow?


Moreover, the inside of the trap is Unhallowed, meaning it confers magic circle vs good to all inside plus bonus vs turning/rebuking and you have Dispel Magic permanently tied to it so every magic effect the PCs cast is subject to dispelling (unless they're chaotic evil followers of Deskari - which the bad guys are).

The module has a "dungeon level" (actual dungeon) which have several effects tied to him, similar to the concept you've mentioned. I like this idea. Question though: Does the dispel magic work once per spell? Once they enter the place? or every certain time?


Furthermore, there is a cache of healing magic at the heart of the place so the Shadow Demon and the ghost can execute hit-and-run tactics on the PCs then go back and recover. The longer it takes the PCs to get there and defeat them, the more attacks they'll have suffered and the less loot (in the form of healing magic) will they find.
I intened for Staunton to meet the party in the various forms I've mentioned in the OP. I want each "mini encounter" to feel a bit different. But this idea to enable Staunton to manifest fully and retreat to heal? Hmmmm... Quite intriguing (Though healing in his case would mean negative energy, him being a ghost). I don't think I'll do the same with the Shadow demon, it would feel a duplicate, and redundent.


Last but not least, the PCs end up trapped in an extradimensional space without an exit (for them) but to which demons may enter if they want to. So after they win, they have to survive subsequent demonic attacks until the duration of the trap runs out.I'm sorry, but I disagree, I see no reason for this. The party quickly approaches a climax, they defet the big bad, a great exhalation, relief/ release, and then... fight more mooks. I'd prefer to cut it out after the climax. Feels enough for me...


The sword:
Unless the PCs manage to interrogate the shadow demon somehow, they don't find out that the sword has actually been buried in some place beneath the castle. They then have to use their knowledge: architecture/dungeoneering to find out which portion of the castel's foundations looks sufficiently newly constructed for the sword to be hidden beneath. The bad guys would have no trouble retrieving it thanks to teleport object spells but the PCs must dig it out. If they don't have the skills, they or the crusade must tear the castle apart trying to find it since they have no idea where to look - something which both takes large amounts of time AND forces them to ruin the hard-won citadel with their own hands. Again, I see no benefit in dragging the search after the climax. What sort of fun would that generate? It's not interesting enough on it's own.

However, using the Sword of Valor (Reminder- it's a banner) somehow near the end might prove interesting enough. Should the party find it after defeating Staunton? While fighting it? Before? What effect should it have? The module give it in the last room (There it has the shadow demon), and it helps negate some of it's powers or such. Might be worth another look...

Thanks for the reply. My agreements and/or disagreements are my way of how I'd do it, but I like your ideas as well. And I'll definitely steal the extradimensional prison space idea! :smallamused:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) The whole Wrath of the Righteous campaign is specifically built to be too easy on the PCs IMHO. It has good flavor, good characters and fair plot but stats-wise the antagonists suck. At least for the CR they've been given, anyway. And the low-CR fights inserted between the CR-appropriate ones just to boost XP for the group feels contrived. I only test-run the modules once before deciding to seriously update them so if you note a plot-mistake that's just me remembering the changed version I ran with my RL group.


2) What annoyed me a lot is the poor choices of the opposition as far as tactics were concerned. With the campaign NPCs offering no great numerical challenge to begin with, I saw no reason to give them the idiot ball as well. Specifically for the fight to take on the citadel, I had the demons use their mobility and physiology advantage plus the cramped spaces instead of meeting the enemy army in the open. The Crusade tried to take the castle and the demons put them in a meat grinder as they used teleportation to cycle the defenders between rooms, never staying long enough for the attackers to get considerable kills while they were ground down by continually fresh troops as the wounded defenders retreated to heal and rest.
The module alluded to such advantage of the demons to begin with but I actually used it in the campaign to give the PCs actual reason to enter the fray rather than any weaker allies of theirs rather than contriving the outcome. And it made the whole citadel a rolling fight with pressure on the PCs - they had to retreat twice before getting enough experience and enough preparation to succeed.

And that made the whole siege slower and more grueling but the final victory that much sweeter, too.

[Karsh]

What about making Staunton some kind of puzzle boss? The Sword of Valor could be the key to forcing Staunton to materialize so that the party could defeat him once and for all. Fend him off while frantically searching for the banner.

[Kol Korran]

1) The whole Wrath of the Righteous campaign is specifically built to be too easy on the PCs IMHO. It has good flavor, good characters and fair plot but stats-wise the antagonists suck. At least for the CR they've been given, anyway. And the low-CR fights inserted between the CR-appropriate ones just to boost XP for the group feels contrived. I totally agree about the module design. I think that the general concept is good, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. I have made a whole bunch of changes to the first module, and quite a few to the second module, with some plans to the third (I haven't read beyond that yet). I guess we agree on that, but differ on how to change things for the better. That's good! We probably have different play styles and different groups, which call for different adjustments. My group is fairly mechanics light, more focused on the story, and we play quite rarely (About once a month), which drives us to more fast pace, fast resolution, cinematic style kind of experiences. A bit like the difference between watching a movie or watching a series I guess, in a way? :smalltongue:



2) What annoyed me a lot is the poor choices of the opposition as far as tactics were concerned. With the campaign NPCs offering no great numerical challenge to begin with, I saw no reason to give them the idiot ball as well. i agree. what annoyed me most is a fir lack of consistency, of chllenge, and most of all- suspense and "story sense", (if that makes sense?)
Specifically for the fight to take on the citadel, I had the demons use their mobility and physiology advantage Mobility and physiology? Other than soem being able to fly, and the more powerful demons being able to teleport, what do you mean here? Most of the low level demons don't have these powers, or were you referring only to the higher ups?


And it made the whole citadel a rolling fight with pressure on the PCs - they had to retreat twice before getting enough experience and enough preparation to succeed.....
And that made the whole siege slower and more grueling but the final victory that much sweeter, too.I do love a rolling fight, but my players (and me) HATE long dungeon crawls in which you go "cleaning areas", even if the monsters come at you instead of you having to hunt them down. We have a saying that nearly all fights need to have a reason more than just "kill these monsters to get ahead". I try to put something extra in most fights to have them have some other meaning. Doesn't always work, but that's what we aim for. In my game I'd like to avoid the long monster-grinder that the citadel seems to be. I'd prefer less encounters, of higher difficulty, and some added interest. This fits my group's play style (As mentioned above). Had we more time, met more frequently, than most likely I would have chosen your approach, as it does give the satisfaction of a overcoming a long grueling difficult job. We seek another gaming experience though... :smallwink:


What about making Staunton some kind of puzzle boss? The Sword of Valor could be the key to forcing Staunton to materialize so that the party could defeat him once and for all. Fend him off while frantically searching for the banner.

Staunton IS supposed to be a sort of a puzzle boss. But integrating the Sword of Valor into this? Might be interesting... Hmmm... Perhaps some power in it, perhaps from Iomedae can try and help the party as they explore? So there is some integral struggle even within the citadel, within Stuanton's own mind?

Thinking more about this, this could prove awesome! Since Stuanton betrayed the citadel by taking the Sword of Valor, it symbolizes both his desire for great triumph, and his own downfall. By this part in the campaign the PCs have all but forgotten abotu the Sword of Valor, so it might be cool to remind them of it and it's importance in this story, in this module. One might be able to put aspects of "Valor" in this, and so on. (A bit like the Hall of Heroes test if you read my journal?). Staunton wishes to hide his shame, but it may be the key for defeating him sort of stuff?

Mechanically, I think this can help in one more aspect- Finding the Sword of Valor might enable the party to level up/ gain the benefit of rest once.

Hmmmmm... aa very interesting idea, I think I'll use it! Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Kol Korran]

Ok, for now I will try to develop my idea of Staunton Vhane (I'll just call him SV from now on, ok? :smallwink:) Is in the center of this, as a ghost who haunts Drezen- his prison, a trap for the PCs, which then work under a time pressure. Time to start breaking it up a bit. Lets see the main components to deal with:
1) SV himself. This is the key really. His presence suffuse the entire gaming experience, and the nature of the citadel. So in order to understand the citadel, I need to better conceptualize him. Main things to think about: His personality, talking interactions with the characters, partial manifestations (Weaker versions of himself) throughout the exploration, his final prison (The extradimensional space), and the final battle. Big things to consider... I will probably go back and forth with them.

2) The nature of the pressure on the PCs- is the citadel slowly collapsing? If so- by what rate? How can the PCs interact? Are their troops outside afflicted and/ or dying? Same questions apply. This is crucial since this drives the entire experience just as well as SV. The idea is to create suspense, maybe provoke a bit of haste and mistake, but not an all out rush so the party explores nothing. Hmmmm...:smallconfused:

3) The Shadow demon. His relation to SV- his captor? Tormentor? In my version the shadow demon appears before SV does, but in what capacity? In my game this encounter will most likely include a mantor of one of the PCs, and a cared for character- an oracle of battle called Commander John (Instead of Aron Kir in the module). I want this to be more than just a battle, but rather some sort of a roleplay experience as well. Thinking on building on the theme of shadow- what is real, unreal, and what's the difference. Straying way into homebrew here possibly.

As a potential, this encounter may act as some reveal to introducing part of the mystery behind my rework on the campaign traits and history of the PCs, but I won't touch on this in this thread most likely.

4) As suggested by Karsh, I could build up the Sword of Valor more, by making it a key to SV's puzzle. An idea I have is that the Sword of Valor could not be removed or destroyed from the Citadel, but that the demons might have altered it's appearance/ poly morphed it or such, and the party now needs to find it. It looks like some other item, and the party needs to find out what it might be by some clues or such. (A bit like the Oz novel). I'm a bit weary of this approach, it can greatly add to the tension, but riddles and puzzles? Hmmm... They either rock or they kill the game. I need to find a way to make it more than just "Guess what I'm thinking about" kind of thing.

5) The other major inhabitants of the citadel, and how they fit in this new surroundings. Currently I'm thinking about the following set of encounters:
- Entrance defenders: For some reason I like the Vrock. I'd like to put him with a few other defenders (Perhaps group a few of the starting encounters together into 1 big "kill the minions" fest) just to give the party a cool "we rule, mass slaughter" battle. When it's done, or nearly it's end- the trap is sprung, and SV makes his first appearance, perhaps manifestation, perhaps taking control of someone or some statue. Don't know yet.

- Jestak the babrarian. Possibly with some minions, or as a body guard to someone else.

- Kiranda the succubus. Though she may need a bit of changing here. Not sure of her yet, but the idea of having her alongside the PCs and possibly betraying them is intiruing. Good roleplay opportunity.

- Joran Vhane: Though what sort of a relationship he no has with SV bears renewed considering. Perhaps imprisoned? Perhaps SV can't yet bear to bring him down, and this may turn into an interesting conversation/ struggle?

- The dungeon and it's features may change a bit. Not yet sure how, but I like the 3 effects in place, they make things more challenging.

- Theruk Kul the vampire+ minions (I'm thinking most of the mentioned undead together, unsure here). For an undead centric. Plus facing a vampire assassin? Cool!

- Chorussina: Not sue about her... I'd like the time pressure to continue till the party takes down SV himself, not when they stop her. So what' her part now? Unsure, thinking about it.

- The death of righteousness trap (Phantasmal killers galore!) I just thinks it's befitting.

So a lot of things to think about. And here I was thining that modules made things easy! :smallamused:

Suggestions and ideas are welcomed.

[Kol Korran]

(I may be writing to myself now, not sure. But I'll keep going in case anyone is interested and wants to see the process)

Ok, now that I know what are the main tasks in reforming Citadel Drezen are, I need to start tackling them. Lets begin with the first:



1) SV himself. This is the key really. His presence suffuse the entire gaming experience, and the nature of the citadel. So in order to understand the citadel, I need to better conceptualize him. Main things to think about: His personality, talking interactions with the characters, partial manifestations (Weaker versions of himself) throughout the exploration, his final prison (The extra dimensional space), and the final battle. Big things to consider... I will probably go back and forth with them.

The Module makes SV a fairly pathetic and comic villain- a commander that doesn't actively commands anything (No one seems to especially listen to him), one that complains to Aponavicius but gets ignored like a petulant child, and is a joke of a combatant.

I wish to change all of that. I want to give him more depth, more gravity, and if possible to have the players interested with him, interacting with him, you know- try and provoke some emotional response? I want him to feel like a special villain, worthy of being the end boss of this module.

So lets see what core ideas we have, and try to build on those:
1) Unlike all of the later demons- SV was mortal. I think that can give a unique perspective, as he can relate more to the PCs (And the players to him), then some minion. I think playing on him taking a different view than the demons can help a lot.

2) He's a paladin who fell, and fell HARD. Such a fall needs a deep personality effect, a change of view. But he also knows what it means to be righteous, good, striving and hopeful. We can play on that. The aspect of betrayal- SV betraying Drezen (Even for "good intentions"), and Jerribeth than betraying him, to have him later betray Kenabres is a powerful theme. It requires a serious change of thought and belief. A great downfall, which SV may see as a revelation, ascent, development.

3) SV poses an interesting conundrum from the point of who trusted he is, and his superiors. He was the one who infiltrated and sabotaged the Wardstone, enough to enable destroying it later at the start of the first module. This means he was a highly skilled and respected agent. And yet, now at the second module, he is left behind with a skeleton force to guard a position that Aponavicius consider redundant and obsolete. And yet she let him try a Nyhadrian crystal and "Ascend".

4) Ties to Drezen: Drezen is the closest this dwarf came to the old dwarven glory in the Worldwound. It is also the city he defended, betrayed, And now was left in to protect. In my rendition it is also the place where he is sacrificed and imprisoned. and he haunts this place. As I set at the start- SV IS Drezen in a way, I think I should play his familiarity with the place greatly. Both in tactics, but also in connection and description of the place. The different rooms of Drezen are in a way parts of his mind, personality, emotions, beliefs, past, present and future.

So, with these together, I think of the following, as a basic framework: SV has fallen, and fallen hard. It has shaken his beliefs and moral so much, that he had turned completely to a nihilistic sort of view- An utter belief in despair and inevitability of the struggle against evil. We can work on various arguments and persuasion to that end, but some key concepts:
- Good plays by the rules, while evil is not bound by that.
- In all good actions there are seeds of "badness"- selfishness, self conviction and judging others, placing your beliefs above others.
- We should not fear the evil of demons- they are but incomplete concepts given form by mortal minds. No- we should fear the very basic evil in mortals themselves- the man who beats his wife, the man who cons another, the one who delights in the pain of others. These give rise to demons, and these will never change.
- Yes, there are heroes, and noble ones, but they are few and alone against the tide of great evil. And nobility never lasts beyond the need to vanquish evil, while evil always prospers.
- A sort of fatalistic approach: "It is inevitable/ it is futile" and so on.

These are but some ides. I'll need to work on it.

Along with this SV talks about the values of heroism, and tries to put "Definite proofs" as to their fallibility. And at times he is just silent, and harass the party with more and more tests, saying things "You seek to fight me? FIght Drezen, while it falls round you? I cannot be beat, destroy me and I reemerge, This place is my final resting place, and yours" and so on.

I think I will try to aim to something between Darth Vader, Agent Smith from the Matrix (But before the third part where he went mad), and the interrogator who tried to break Sheriden from the fourth season of Babylon 5- Someone who is without passion, certain of himself, and seems to always speak the truth, doesn't dance around, but plainly. Unconcerned, doing his duty- the result is already known, just going through the process.

But this can easily bore a party, and seem a bit one dimensional, so there need to be some cracks, some "slips of humanity" left in the old bugger. Some things that matter to him, that are still issues to him, even if he thinks himself passive to them. So... some ideas:
- His childhood at Kenabres, the witch hunts, and so on. (In my Campaign I made Milorn from the first module a relative from him, which the party tried to redeem, and that SV sent to the underground in the first place. Might be worth touching on this.

- The search for the Sky citadel. Staunton believe it is lost, and may still feel a pang of grief over this. Not sue how to incorporate it in the citadel itself.

- His old unit, the Hammers of Heaven. Not sure what to do here, but this could be an interesting point to add. One room could hold some remants of them that he kept?

- Aponavicius: He is her loyal servant, but she both likes his usefulness, and likes to torment him even more. He accepted this long ago, but may have some thoughts on the Merilith, especially her misunderstandings of mortals and their need for hope (The Sword of Valor)

- Areelu Vorlesh: Since she herself was half mortal, and is now part demon, I imagine SV partly worshiping her, as she seems to understand both sides of the equation. He could venerate her. This can work well, as her power might be the one that enabled the building of such a powerful magical trap such as Drezen. When the party boasts at how they defeated her, he can turn this upside down- this just showed her great power- she withstood the combined force of all the Wardstones, and still survived? You don't want to mess with her! SV might have even tried to become a half demon by taking the Nyhadrian crystal himself, and when that didn't work, he might have decided to sacrifice himself for Areelu's cause, like a true fanatic.

- The Sword of Valor: I'm not sure what SV feels about the banner, but it could be complex- he saw it as it's chance to win one day, but might blame it for his downfall. I'd like to play that the banner repels his touch, and he cannot handle it. So he might come to resent it quite greatly.

- His brother, still in the citadel. On one hand SV has distanced himself from him, treating him as a tool. But I think it could be interesting to have SV play all detached and withdrawn, but react subconsciously to try and protect his brother (Even though berating and belittling him). If the party kill the brother, well, SV just accept it as another mortal connection severed. If the brother is kept alive? Well, some interesting reactions can be played out.

- The shadow demon. Not sure here. In a way I think that SV may be both a deluded prisoner of this demon, but also one who welcomes his imprisonment in some twisted way, even welcoming it.

So.... the background may need a bit of refurbishing, but on the whole I think this is a good start.

How does he challenges the PCs in the castle though? I think in a few ways:
1) I'd like to enhance the feeling of a prison, by having various incorporeal chains in many places in the halls, walls, ceilings and the like. At different times (Mostly combat but not only) SV attaches a chain to some of the castle and pulls- erecting an obstacle, dropping some masonry on PCs and so on. I need to work on rules for that. (Sort of telekenesis, but amplified?) Need ways for the PCs to interact with this.

2) SV can spring traps and such at PCs.

3) SV can alert and direct the combatants in the citadel to come from unexpected corners, through secret passages and the like. Depends on how many low level creatures I'm having, Since I wish to avoid this.

4) SV can animate objects in the castle, with his own spirit (So his attack bonuses and such). Statues of warriors, but also demonic made statues, Perhaps with one encounter with a Statue of Deskari or of Aponavicius?

5) SV can manifest as a weaker version of himself (I'm thinking like CR 9?) And without his armor. He rejuvinates within a few minutes, but chooses to manifest only in key locations.

The idea is to have him interact mechanically with the characters in many ways- feel omnipresent, with many tricks, and wearing the party down since he keeps-coming-back!

As to SV Extra dimensional place... I think this should replace the dungeon level in the module. But there are a few important changes:

- It cannot be entered just by finding the right door or stairs. It is a bit of a riddle. I think that it will require finding the Sword of Valor, which would be a puzzle in and on itself, as mentioned in the previous post. The shadow demon will play a part here as well somehow. Not fully clear about how to implement this.

- It represents the Core of SV, as such his presence and influence is stronger here. Part of this is more powerful manifestations, part of it is effects similar to the three effects mentioned for the dungeon in the module.

- The place is not a straight up dungeon, but is some sort of a personality/dream scape of SV himself. In a way, this should present a prison environment, but SV own prison- what captures him, torments him, but that he welcomes in his own twisted perverted calm and acceptance.

- The place cannot be that easily navigated I think, but requires some understanding of SV himself perhaps? Not sure... I want to give it a feeling different then "Ok, so this room has 3 exits, which do you pick?" Not sure here either.

- Not sure what creature might dwell here. The vampire assassin and some undead maybe. Maybe a few demons caught as well? (Those damned Babaus are everywhere!) and maybe the witch? Need to figure this out.

Last thing to start working on is the final confrontation. My idea for a final boss is one that has high survivability, mid- high damage, and can affect at least 2/3 of a party every 3 rounds. So far I think:
- CR 12, Mythic rank 14. Anti paladin 10, champion 4, ghost. However, I assume the cleric will quickly use ghost armor/ weapon spells on the party. I need a way to either deal with it or counter it.

- Uses up to three items (Has the ghost trapping variant, which enables a few items to be used as ghost touch)- something to boost defense, something to boost hitting, and charisma boosting (As it boosts nearly all of his capabilities)

- A changing battlefield. I liked the idea of prison bars limiting movement- perhaps prison bars appearing and seperating characters? I need a place that is both cool to do battle in, and also acts as prison and the most central core of cores to SV. Maybe on the falling sky citadel? Maybe In one of the great a halls of Drzen which the party fought in on their way in, but now in it's past glory? Maybe on some representation of a corrupted Sword of Valor tapestry? (And then maybe the party could try to "revive it"? Not sure...

- I think there should be some sort of minions, but I'm not sure who- ghosts of the PCs' army that died due to the curse outside? demons? past victims of SV?

So there is still some work to do, but this is the foundation I think of. Ideas are welcomed! :smallsmile:

[Kol Korran]

I've been having a few more extra thoughts about SV, but not well formed yet. I will try to tackle the other issues for now, as in a way, they are all tied together.



2) The nature of the pressure on the PCs- is the citadel slowly collapsing? If so- by what rate? How can the PCs interact? Are their troops outside afflicted and/ or dying? Same questions apply. This is crucial since this drives the entire experience just as well as SV. The idea is to create suspense, maybe provoke a bit of haste and mistake, but not an all out rush so the party explores nothing. Hmmmm...:smallconfused:

This one is fairy big. At first I though it would be nice to have the castle collpse upon itself, whether it is the barrier shrinking, or just collapsed sections. But this poses a few problems:
- I and the players will need to readjust the map all the time, and that leads to quite a bit of a mess and a hassle.

- Since part of the idea is to look for the Sword of Valor in a disguised form, the party will need access to most parts of the citadel.

- As I imagine it, the castle will sort of collapse inwards, which quickly leads the party to suspect that the importnt stuff is in the middle, whatever it is. It kind of kills the "explore the dungeon" feel, even if it is rushed.

Having though of that, I can still give a sense of an "unstable collapsing castle", only with various other effects: Some predetermined collapsed sections, lots of rubble, and affects of "traps/ hazards" such as falling stones, collapsing walls, pits and the like. These should be quite paramount, as in nearly every room/ corridor.

I quite like the idea of something affecting the forces outside- some great curse. It adds an additional burden on the PCs, and a sort of a ticking clock, that demands action. SV might tell/ show the PCs the effects on the army outside, and thus add a bit of drama. The problems are: What is the curse/ affliction exactly? How to pace it?

Pacing can be done in two ways- one is by the need of the story: If the party progresses to point X, so has the affliction outside. But I dislike that- I like the PCs actions to matter, so if they do it quicker rather than later, this should count for something, and if they start to dally too much- well... too bad for the troops. I'm thinking an extra XP reward, which depends on how fast they managed the challenge (Defeated SV)

What is the problem itself? Some ideas:
- A sort of a magical fast progressing illness. Instead of taking 1 day to progress, it progresses every 10 minutes/ half an hour. You could choose some sinister/ horrific looking disease, which shows progression well.

- Perhaps some sort of a high power demon went outside and started massacring the armies who can't quite penetrate it's DR or such? Perhaps even a manifestation of SV? Sounds simpler in concept than a wide spread super curse, but a bit... boring, though more tangible?

I think I will leave the pacing to when I have the citadel and encounters more mapped out. It will give me a sense of how much it might take.