How loud must Verbal components for spells be?

[Endarire]

I've read the relevant chapters of the 5E PHB but have found no reference on this. I ask because I believe that a Verbal component may be whispered or otherwise audibly uttered very quietly, thereby allowing casters to cast spells with Verbal components while retaining Stealth.

[MaxWilson]

I've read the relevant chapters of the 5E PHB but have found no reference on this. I ask because I believe that a Verbal component may be whispered or otherwise audibly uttered very quietly, thereby allowing casters to cast spells with Verbal components while retaining Stealth.

Seems fine to me. Wizards that "peep and mutter" are an old and well-established tradition.

[Daishain]

The established baseline had been that the component must be uttered in a firm tone of voice. This has generally (at least in the past) been interpreted to mean that anything less than a reasonably normal speaking voice won't cut it.

If the area doesn't have much in the way of background noise, don't expect to be able to go unheard.

Of course, there are a couple tricks to muffle it. I stuck a bucket on my head and sat in a corner to cast on one such occasion. Not the most glamorous of maneuvers, least of all when the DM started describing what the bucket smelled like, but it did the job.

Of course, interpret as you wish, everyone's game is at least a little different.

P.S. It is quite possible to speak in a firm tone of voice very quietly, but it usually requires at least a bit of voice training. I have heard of DMs allowing bards to do their vocal component in near silence. The same might also be made to apply to arcane tricksters with appropriate training in their background.

[Scirocco]

Maybe a Cha(Stealth) or Int(Stealth) check? Or possibly Sleight of Hand?

[silveralen]

As said before, if you want specific rules there aren't any at this moment. So it'll vary. If you are a player, ask the DM, while some of the suggestions sofar are pretty good if you are looking to establish rules for your table.

I think requiring a stealth check based on the spellcasting attribute is a decent way of handling someone who tries to cast quietly, but it focuses more on whether they heard the spell, instead of whether or not the character spoke clearly enough to cast it.

Another option might be to require a concentration check to focus on the spell when whispering it, failure indicating that (while they were quiet) they didn't managed to speak clearly enough and failed.

You could use both options (for difficult whispered spells) or let the player choose of they wish to risk the spell failing or risk being heard.

[TheOOB]

The words need to be clearly stated, but I don't recall volume ever being mentioned in the rules. I'd agree with a casting ability check using the stealth skill vs Wisdom(Perception) would be fair if you were trying to quiet cast a spell, taking disadvantage if there is no ambient noise or the spell takes longer than an action to cast.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd say default is a firm shout, like you're trying to talk to someone two rooms away. If you want to make it quieter, roll stealth to avoid being noticed, and Concentration to avoid losing the spell.

[Thrudd]

Maybe the required volume depends on the level of the spell. cantrips can be whispered. level 1 must be normal speaking voice. Level 9 must be shouted at maximum opera singer volume (wizards who reach this level have developed very strong lungs/diaphragms).

[MrUberGr]

I remember in 3.5 there was a way to stealth cast a spell. I know for sure that you could do a sleight of hand check to have the somatic component go unnoticed, but I don't remember what was the deal with the verbal.

On our table we just say "I whisper the spell" and if there is ambient noise etc it goes unnoticed. A case where a spell had to be casted in total silence hasn't occured. However I think that Stealth(spellcasting modifier) vs Perception, with the appropriate modifiers according to noises etc, would be a good way to do ththis.

[MarkTriumphant]

There is at least one spell for which the verbal component is specifically inaudible - the cantrip Message. If it is not inaudible, the purpose of the spell is defeated.

[Logosloki]

The minimum volume of a spell would be based on what it does. While I'm sure someone could make up a scenario to the contrary I would suggest things like flamestrike and fireball would be spoken with great gusto while something like arcane eye would be all stealthy and secretive.

[Dalebert]

The minimum volume of a spell would be based on what it does. While I'm sure someone could make up a scenario to the contrary I would suggest things like flamestrike and fireball would be spoken with great gusto while something like arcane eye would be all stealthy and secretive.

With the message spell establishing a precedence, I think this isn't actually a bad idea. Some spells are intentionally about subterfuge, the message spell being a prime example. It's always bugged me that they made a blanket rule in 3.5 that all verbal components had to be spoken aloud clearly for all to hear. I was actually thrilled to see they removed the verbal component for Minor Illusion though I see it's still part of Silent Image, another spell that loses 90% of it's usefulness if you're required to announce its casting to all onlookers. I really liked having an item that cast it in PF for that reason.

I like the idea of some reasonable DC for a stealth roll to discreetly cast a spell, or maybe stealth for V and another sleight of hand for S, perhaps with disadvantage in a combat situation because (intelligent) opponents are on the alert for spellcasting and whatever actions you're taking in general. Maybe adjust the DC some for the spell with direct attack spells being higher.

[odigity]

I think requiring a stealth check based on the spellcasting attribute is a decent way of handling someone who tries to cast quietly...

I like that! It's another use for the Stealth skill, it doesn't punish casters who don't have a high Dex, and it's contested by the person you're trying to avoid hearing you. It's quite elegant. You're a caster who wants to cast stealthily? Get proficient in Stealth, use with your spellcasting attribute (Int/Wis/Cha). No new feats or complicated specialized rules.


I like the idea of some reasonable DC for a stealth roll to discreetly cast a spell, or maybe stealth for V and another sleight of hand for S, perhaps with disadvantage in a combat situation because (intelligent) opponents are on the alert for spellcasting and whatever actions you're taking in general. Maybe adjust the DC some for the spell with direct attack spells being higher.

That makes it even harder (two rolls for two different components), but if you like the challenge, the concept is sound -- having to individually master providing each component in a stealthy way. Combined with silveralen's idea, if you wanted to play a stealth caster, you'd want to take proficiencies in Stealth (V) and Sleight of Hand (S), then use both with your spellcasting attribute. In 3.5, stealth-ifying each component required a separate feat, so there's precedent for that approach.

Fluff-wise, since they're using their spellcasting attribute with Sleight of Hand for (S) instead of Dex, instead of using pure hand dexterity, I imagine it's more like:

Int: Using their intellect to figure out how to disguise their hand gestures so they don't resemble spellcasting.
Wis: Using their senses to notice when/who's paying attention, and what lines-of-sight to break before casting (i.e. put your hands behind your back).
Cha: Using your ability to influence others through eye contact, body language, etc to distract them from noticing the spell-casting gestures.

[Dalebert]

I like that! It's another use for the Stealth skill, it doesn't punish casters who don't have a high Dex, and it's contested by the person you're trying to avoid hearing you.

So do I. I missed that the first time I read this thread but it makes sense.


That makes it even harder (two rolls for two different components), but if you like the challenge, the concept is sound -- having to individually master providing each component in a stealthy way.

It should be challenging depending very much on the circumstance. In the middle of a fight, it seems like it should be challenging. In other circumstances, it might be trivial. Like, if you're in a noisy tavern and you want to cast just about any kind of personal buff discreetly, I might not even expect someone to roll for that. Somatic components may be fairly trivial most of the time, probably just amounting to pointing your finger or your focus object at the target, but it depends on the effect. If the effect is mild, like message, it should be fairly easy to pass it off as "I'm showing someone where the out house is." If something shoots out of your hand, e.g. a firebolt, that's going to be nigh impossibly to conceal. Verbal components, even a whisper, might be challenging if you're hiding behind the shelves inside someone's house and you and the target are the only ones there.

If you're following someone from a distance at night, and hardly anyone's around, you might even be able to pull off a firebolt and then be ready to duck behind a building before they turn to see where it came from. These are notions of circumstantial stealth casting. Combats in particular should be very difficult or even impossible circumstances. Firing a firebolt at someone on a busy street would be another where I'm not even sure a good roll should matter. You just can't do it.

[Shining Wrath]

Since one of the Sorcerer's metamagic skills is to be able to cast with no verbal or somatic components, beware lest you nerf a class feature on the way to RAI.

I guess the question is, why are there verbal components at all? Per 5e cosmology, you are manipulating the Weave, and doing certain things in a certain way makes the Weave dance.

Therefore, I wind up with it being a case-by-case basis, different for each spell, and unless the spell says it is cast quietly, trying to do so makes casting the spell more difficult.

I disagree with using Stealth; the default for "casting a spell under difficult circumstances" is Concentration. It's not that you are going to make a mistake and speak too loudly; it's that you are going to make a mistake and not pull the correct strings in the Weave, and your spell fizzles.

Therefore, Concentration with a DC of (10 + spell level) to whisper your spell. Allow those who you don't want to hear your spell the normal Wisdom(Perception) check to hear you anyway, which I think is DC 15 if they are near you, DC 20 or 25 if there's some distance or a door et cetera. Trying to sneak a spell past a Dragon remains a foolish idea, kids :smallsmile:

Missing the Concentration check causes loss of the spell slot with no effect. Cruel DMs might have a very bad roll result in fizzle with some visible or audible effect.

[Demonic Spoon]

I disagree with using Stealth; the default for "casting a spell under difficult circumstances" is Concentration. It's not that you are going to make a mistake and speak too loudly; it's that you are going to make a mistake and not pull the correct strings in the Weave, and your spell fizzles.


The point is that speaking at all makes it harder to stay hidden, not that it makes it harder to cast the spell.


Personally: I would say that you need to be speaking firmly and at a volume loud enough that a creature that can hear you. I don't think that casting spells while stealthed effectively should be a thing everyone should be able to do. Rather, it should be something that specific class/subclass features grant you, like sorcerer's subtle spell. On another note, that makes me think that such a feature would be awesome on the Arcane Trickster.

[Shining Wrath]

The point is that speaking at all makes it harder to stay hidden, not that it makes it harder to cast the spell.


Personally: I would say that you need to be speaking firmly and at a volume loud enough that a creature that can hear you. I don't think that casting spells while stealthed effectively should be a thing everyone should be able to do. Rather, it should be something that specific class/subclass features grant you, like sorcerer's subtle spell. On another note, that makes me think that such a feature would be awesome on the Arcane Trickster.

I'm going to say that any time you attempt to cast a spell while doing something else, it adds challenge to casting the spell. If you have to cast while standing on one foot, Concentration check. If you have to whisper, Concentration check. If an ogre is giving you a wedgie, Concentration check.

[Dalebert]

Since one of the Sorcerer's metamagic skills is to be able to cast with no verbal or somatic components, beware lest you nerf a class feature on the way to RAI.

There are other benefits besides stealth. Verbal components means you can't be gagged or in silence. Somatic components means you can't cast it if you tied up. Apparently it doesn't matter if you're grappled anymore which is just odd to me. That's a nerf to sorcerers that 5e did; not house rules. And not having to do it at all is automatic success; not rolling necessary. I don't think it's much of a nerf.


Therefore, I wind up with it being a case-by-case basis, different for each spell, and unless the spell says it is cast quietly, trying to do so makes casting the spell more difficult.

They don't bother to say that at times but it seems clear that certain spells are about subterfuge. Again I posit illusions, specifically the ones that have no other effect other than to trick people like Silent Image. If you can't do it discreetly, it's awfully hard to make it useful. I think some DM discretion is called for beyond the spell specifically spelling out that it can be whispered. I think that's just the one spell actually and only because it's literally a whisper.

Really, it should have more to do with the spell. Subterfuge spells should be fairly discreet by default. Blasty spells should be completely obvious by default.

For example, I honestly think Silent Image should be V, M for discretion purposes and should specify that it can be whispered. I don't see any point to a somatic component. There's no target or aiming per se. This spell is all about deceiving people into thinking there's no magic happening at all.


I disagree with using Stealth; the default for "casting a spell under difficult circumstances" is Concentration. It's not that you are going to make a mistake and speak too loudly; it's that you are going to make a mistake and not pull the correct strings in the Weave, and your spell fizzles.

You have a point but actually both matter. I could see you losing the spell from trying to be subtle. I could also see you succeeding at casting and attempting to be discreet but getting caught.

[silveralen]

Which is why I recommend letting the player choose.

Is he willing to risklosing the spell because he is determined to remain quiet? Concentration check, if he fails then no spell.

Is he willing to risk being a little louder to ensure the spell goes off? Stealth (using spellcasting attribute probably) cast quietly.

Same idea f

[silveralen]

Which is why I recommend letting the player choose.

Is he willing to risk losing the spell because he is determined to remain quiet? Concentration check, if he fails then no spell.

Is he willing to risk being a little louder to ensure the spell goes off? Stealth (using spellcasting attribute probably) cast quietly.

Same idea for somatic components, with slight of hand replacing stealth probably, the idea being he is trying to cast with no one noticing his hands.

Now if he wants to cast a V and S spell while being subtule... Concentration check, stealth check, and sleight of hand all at once. Because at some point that must get really difficult.

[odigity]

So many great ideas in this thread, and for once, they all seem to be working together.