Knowledge skills in 3.5e

[Ferronach]

Hey the GiTP friends who know waaaaay more about DnD than I do :)

Something that I have thought about on and off and was reminded of by Snowbluff in a different thread is the concept of combining the various knowledge skills into groups of some sort.
Have any of you done this? How did it work out?
Do you think it would be better to say that ranks in knowledge can apply to any 3 types of knowledge within reason?

I have tentatively put together some groupings, what do you think? Could this work?

Regional: Combines geography, history, local and nobility/royalty
Divine: Religion, history (focused more on ecclesiastical history), The planes - partial (focused on religious knowledge of them)
Arcane: Arcana, history (focused more on history of magic), The planes - partial (focused on arcane knowledge of them)
Adventure: Geography, architecture/engineering and dungeoneering
Outdoor: Geography, nature, dungeoneering

[DeltaEmil]

I would combine Arcane and Religion, since they both deal with supernatural elements that are common in both sides anyway (outsiders are often the servants of deities and exemplars of specific alignments, as well as magically gifted inhabitants of the planes, which are magical places where dead people go, undead are magically animated beings, ecclesiastic history will always have some elements telling about magic, and so on).

[Psyren]

Personally I dislike combining local and nobility because it means that knowledge of a city's upper political strata automatically enables you to skillfully navigate the slums too. There are certainly nobles who can do that, but most would just hire a guy who knows a guy. I'm also not sure where you would draw the line between "arcane knowledge of the planes" and "divine knowledge of the planes" - I'd personally rather keep that as its own thing, especially since not all arcanists or divine casters would necessarily be interested in planar cosmology.

Geography shouldn't be in your first category imo - in fact, someone who spends their entire life in a city might not even know what a waterfall is, or how to avoid quicksand etc.

Rather than roll History into the others, I would simply allow two approaches to a given problem. For instance, you might know the strange runes over the doorway in the ruins are an old elven dialect because that was the script used on the magical scrolls you uncovered in the previous room, or because you knew the ruins belonged to ancient elven civilization in the past.

I would not combine Arcane and Religion, because then you end up with everyone who knows one being knowledgeable in the other. That denies you certain archetypes like Vaarsuvius.

[Ferronach]

I would combine Arcane and Religion, since they both deal with supernatural elements that are common in both sides anyway (outsiders are often the servants of deities and exemplars of specific alignments, as well as magically gifted inhabitants of the planes, which are magical places where dead people go, undead are magically animated beings, ecclesiastic history will always have some elements telling about magic, and so on).

I debated combining the two but I didn't want too many knowledge skills crammed into a single one.
But you do raise a very valid point about the interconnectedness of the two.

In that case would you recommend combining the adventure and outdoor ones too?

[NichG]

Personally, I really despise Knowledge(Local) as a skill. Its one of those things that you sort of feel like you're supposed to invest in but at the same time you know it's not going to be useful. E.g. 'in my backstory, I lived in this city for 15 years, so I should probably have some Knowledge(Local) so that I can actually play up my knowledge of my hometown, but I'm not really the sort of person who adapts to new cities quickly, so...' Or worse, 'is my DM going to say that Local means literally the one city I grew up in, or is it going to generalize?'

I'd much rather it be called something like Knowledge(Street Smarts) or even Knowledge(Cities).

[DeltaEmil]

I think that architecture and engineering is focused enough to not need be part of another Knowledge skill package, which would make Knowledge (adventure) superfluous. To make investing ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) more attractive, perhaps let it give a bonus on cover checks.

[Psyren]

Personally, I really despise Knowledge(Local) as a skill. Its one of those things that you sort of feel like you're supposed to invest in but at the same time you know it's going to be useful. E.g. 'in my backstory, I lived in this city for 15 years, so I should probably have some Knowledge(Local) so that I can actually play up my knowledge of my hometown, but I'm not really the sort of person who adapts to new cities quickly, so...' Or worse, 'is my DM going to say that Local means literally the one city I grew up in, or is it going to generalize?'

I'd much rather it be called something like Knowledge(Street Smarts) or even Knowledge(Cities).

Yeah, I agree with that. It should reflect your ability to get involved in the underworld smoothly in general, not just specifically where you grew up. Matrim Cauthon for instance could in just about any new city find which taverns will get your throat cut, which have rats and fleas, and which ones had the best gambling in mere minutes, even in a city he'd never been to before.

[Ferronach]

Personally I dislike combining local and nobility because it means that knowledge of a city's upper political strata automatically enables you to skillfully navigate the slums too. There are certainly nobles who can do that, but most would just hire a guy who knows a guy. .

I agree with this. I usually base the DC for related rolls on the character’s backstory as one who grew up in the slums will know who is king and such but not much more about the upper crust. They will however have an intimate understanding of the upper world. Conversely a minor noble will be intimate with the court but know only in general which areas to avoid in a town.


I'm also not sure where you would draw the line between "arcane knowledge of the planes" and "divine knowledge of the planes" - I'd personally rather keep that as its own thing, especially since not all arcanists or divine casters would necessarily be interested in planar cosmology. .

Never thought of it that way…


Geography shouldn't be in your first category imo - in fact, someone who spends their entire life in a city might not even know what a waterfall is, or how to avoid quicksand etc.

Again this is where I would adjust the DC based on the character making the check. Most people will know the geography around their “home” to a certain extent. They will know that there is a major river a few days to the south and a desert far far to the west etc. As for quicksand and such, I completely agree that this is one of those character dependent ones.


Rather than roll History into the others, I would simply allow two approaches to a given problem. For instance, you might know the strange runes over the doorway in the ruins are an old elven dialect because that was the script used on the magical scrolls you uncovered in the previous room, or because you knew the ruins belonged to ancient elven civilization in the past.

This is sort of what I was trying to accomplish with having history in the different categories.


I would not combine Arcane and Religion, because then you end up with everyone who knows one being knowledgeable in the other. That denies you certain archetypes like Vaarsuvius.

That was one of my fears about combining the two. That and it makes the higher tier classes even more versatile out of combat (and potentially in).


Personally, I really despise Knowledge(Local) as a skill. Its one of those things that you sort of feel like you're supposed to invest in but at the same time you know it's not going to be useful. E.g. 'in my backstory, I lived in this city for 15 years, so I should probably have some Knowledge(Local) so that I can actually play up my knowledge of my hometown, but I'm not really the sort of person who adapts to new cities quickly, so...' Or worse, 'is my DM going to say that Local means literally the one city I grew up in, or is it going to generalize?'

I'd much rather it be called something like Knowledge(Street Smarts) or even Knowledge(Cities).

I usually tell my players that “Local” knowledge focusses more on the general side of things like regional legends and customs/traditions. Yes it also entails a more intimate knowledge of their home town/city etc. but I have always felt that unless you are running a cityscape campaign, that type of knowledge isn’t very helpful.


I think that architecture and engineering is focused enough to not need be part of another Knowledge skill package, which would make Knowledge (adventure) superfluous. To make investing ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) more attractive, perhaps let it give a bonus on cover checks.

Hmmm I think you are right. Perhaps a bonus to climbing/sundering?


Yeah, I agree with that. It should reflect your ability to get involved in the underworld smoothly in general, not just specifically where you grew up. Matrim Cauthon for instance could in just about any new city find which taverns will get your throat cut, which have rats and fleas, and which ones had the best gambling in mere minutes, even in a city he'd never been to before.

He can also kill an assassin by slipping and falling off of a roof without even knowing that an assassin is there… He is most definitely one of my all-time favourite characters out of any book that I have ever read (and I read A LOT). 
Going back to local, I think that the ability to identify a “type” of person/establishment is a general/universal enough skill that you can apply it anywhere you go. Higher ranks allow you to apply it to non-humanoids.

Thanks for all of the feedback guys! Much appreciated :)

[Psyren]

Again this is where I would adjust the DC based on the character making the check. Most people will know the geography around their “home” to a certain extent. They will know that there is a major river a few days to the south and a desert far far to the west etc. As for quicksand and such, I completely agree that this is one of those character dependent ones.

To me, Know (Geography) represents the broader knowledge you would gain of the outdoors by being well-traveled (or pursuing that field of study academically.) Thus I would keep it separate from Local because knowing the terrain around your home only helps with the very specific features you would encounter there. Growing up on a mountain might teach me a lot about mountains, but not about jungles, deserts, tundra, islands or bogs. It might not even teach me much about caves if had no reason to venture into one.



He can also kill an assassin by slipping and falling off of a roof without even knowing that an assassin is there… He is most definitely one of my all-time favourite characters out of any book that I have ever read (and I read A LOT). 
Going back to local, I think that the ability to identify a “type” of person/establishment is a general/universal enough skill that you can apply it anywhere you go. Higher ranks allow you to apply it to non-humanoids.

Thanks for all of the feedback guys! Much appreciated :)

Yeah, his massive luck stat has a lot to do with that it's true, but he is very "street-smart" too. That is a skill, and moreover it is a skill that not everyone in the party would have. Other examples are Han Solo, Malcolm Reynolds, Locke from FF6, Isabella from Dragon Age, and even Belkar.

[Ferronach]

To me, Know (Geography) represents the broader knowledge you would gain of the outdoors by being well-traveled (or pursuing that field of study academically.) Thus I would keep it separate from Local because knowing the terrain around your home only helps with the very specific features you would encounter there. Growing up on a mountain might teach me a lot about mountains, but not about jungles, deserts, tundra, islands or bogs. It might not even teach me much about caves if had no reason to venture into one.

True but that is why I make the DC character dependent. I live in Canada for example and know all about winter. I sort of understand what its like to live somewhere tropical or in a desert but would find it very difficult. Tconverse would be true for someone from one of those places. Heck some of them have never seen snow.

[ericgrau]

Yeup I did it in my sig along with other skills. See consolidated skill system. Brought the list to about 1/3 size.

Civilization (Int): Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Decipher Script (historical documents)
Cosmology (Int): Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes)
Nature (Wis): Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Nature), Survival
Objects (Int): Appraise , Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)
Peoples (Int): Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography)
Spellcraft (Int): Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft

Civilization is book knowledge (e.g., major figures), Peoples is more face to face practical knowledge (e.g., gnome special abilities, things to know when traversing Dwarven lands on foot). Dungeoneering goes with Nature because the skill description basically says it covers caves, whereas other dungeon construction is Architecture & Engineering. In general I tried to go with the skill description, not what I think the word means since that can vary wildly from person to person. I put Decipher Script (garbled documents) under Perception.

I agree that with all consolidation you lose some distinctiveness because someone may know more about one thing than another thing related to it. But they tend to be known together and it makes the game simpler to play. As it is there's too much confusion and time spent leveling on something as small as skills, and it only serves to drive them into even less usage and becoming smaller. Simplicity brings more use out of them rather than effectively dropping the skill system down to spot, listen, search, disable device and those other ones we rarely use except when reminded to.

[Ferronach]

Yeup I did it in my sig along with other skills. See consolidated skill system. Brought the list to about 1/3 size.

Civilization (Int): Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Decipher Script (historical documents)
Cosmology (Int): Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes)
Nature (Wis): Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Nature), Survival
Objects (Int): Appraise , Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)
Peoples (Int): Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography)
Spellcraft (Int): Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft

Civilization is book knowledge (e.g., major figures), Peoples is more face to face practical knowledge (e.g., gnome special abilities, things to know when traversing Dwarven lands on foot). Dungeoneering goes with Nature because the skill description basically says it covers caves, whereas other dungeon construction is Architecture & Engineering. In general I tried to go with the skill description, not what I think the word means since that can vary wildly from person to person. I put Decipher Script (garbled documents) under Perception.

I agree that with all consolidation you lose some distinctiveness because someone may know more about one thing than another thing related to it. But they tend to be known together and it makes the game simpler to play. As it is there's too much confusion and time spent leveling on something as small as skills, and it only serves to drive them into even less usage and becoming smaller. Simplicity brings more use out of them rather than effectively dropping the skill system down to spot, listen, search, disable device and those other ones we rarely use except when reminded to.

You just made my day! The pdfs in your signature are incredible time savers! Mind if I use them in some way/shape/form?
I like how you have broken up the categories (not just the knowledge ones) into much more manageable chunks. I also like how you approach the idea of skill points when putting them into something that encompasses multiple skills :)

[ericgrau]

Go for it, that's what they're there for.

[squiggit]

Personally I dislike combining local and nobility because it means that knowledge of a city's upper political strata automatically enables you to skillfully navigate the slums too.

That's kind of a problem with knowledge in general though. I mean as is being an expert on Owlbears automatically makes me an expert on magical tradition too.

I like combining spellcraft and knowledge(arcane) though and survival+nature tho. I keep dungeoneering separate however.

[Psyren]

That's kind of a problem with knowledge in general though. I mean as is being an expert on Owlbears automatically makes me an expert on magical tradition.

There's a logical connection there though. The owlbear's creation amounts to "a wizard did it" - thus the more you know about one the more you could know about the other.

[NichG]

Knowledge as a skill doesn't work the same way that 'knowledge as things you know' works. Really, if all knowledge had to pass through the skill, things would be very weird sometimes (I don't have any Knowledge(Planes), so I just can't seem to ever remember the name of that demon lord who imprisoned us last month and who we've been slaving under).

So, if you know about owlbears because you know about owlbears, that's separate from whatever the Knowledge skills are modelling. In the case of the skills, I think it makes sense to think about it as sort of a 'chance you ran into the information in a library once' kind of thing. When it's Knowledge(Arcana), it was a library about magic. Maybe you happened upon the journal of the guy who made owlbears and recall a few snippets, and maybe next week it's going to be some factoid about the Blockade spell, or about how antimagic fields and orb spells interact.

[sideswipe]

if you want a revised knowledge list just make arc and engineering and dungeoneering one skill. history and nob and roy one. geography can be combined into nature too. that leaves 8 knowledges instead of 11 (including psionics)

from a mechanics aspect each knowledge would then be useful, and every one would have a "category" for creatures to be used with knowledge devotion.

personally i think the list is fine as it is but i love knowledge charaters

[Psyren]

So, if you know about owlbears because you know about owlbears, that's separate from whatever the Knowledge skills are modelling. In the case of the skills, I think it makes sense to think about it as sort of a 'chance you ran into the information in a library once' kind of thing. When it's Knowledge(Arcana), it was a library about magic. Maybe you happened upon the journal of the guy who made owlbears and recall a few snippets, and maybe next week it's going to be some factoid about the Blockade spell, or about how antimagic fields and orb spells interact.

Yeah I'm fine with that. Or you ran into a passage on owlbears during your Combinatory Theory or Arcane History courses at the college, or your mentor told you the story of their creation while trying to help you understand Elemental Admixtures. Or hey, even just knowing about those things might help you understand owlbears better on your own because you can see certain telltale signs.

Either way, the two of them being part of the same skill doesn't have to be farfetched.

[Ferronach]

Go for it, that's what they're there for.

Thanks :) Just wanted to make sure.

It seems that we are all on the same page in that knowledge skills seem somewhat arbitrary and unwieldy at times.
But I think that WoTC did a fairly decent job to try and encompass that which is by its very nature arbitrary.

I think that once I flesh out my campaign I may be able to cut out some of the categories which the players wont need.