Double the Support!

[Alchemyre]

Hello all. I'm in a gestalt game (level 5) and am playing to make a Wis based Support Dvati. the GM has ruled that templates, if they exceed 5, can role over to the other side. The largest problem is that Dvati are crazy squishy, so I'm trying to find a template that can get around that. So I'm looking for good Wis Based Support class on one side and damage avoidance templates/classes on the other. Oh and I'm using a Pathfinder converion of Dvati with no LA, so that's not an issue. Thanks ahead of time!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that this campaign is over the top, so most 3rd Party and such are usually okay.

[Psyren]

Cleric and Inquisitor are your best bet for wis-based support.

The most powerful defensive template is probably Ghost but your DM is unlikely to okay that. Are 3.5 templates allowed? I'm not too familiar with the PF ones.

[Extra Anchovies]

The following requires access to 3e content, but solves your template problem.

First, give a set of Dvati twins the Giant template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1). Dump their mental scores and pump their physical scores.

Then give a different set of Dvati twins the Young template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1). Dump their physical scores and pump their mental scores.

Then apply the Symbiotic template (Savage Species p. 132), with Giant Dvati as the host and Young Dvati as the guest.

Quadruple the support.

[Alchemyre]

Cleric and Inquisitor are your best bet for wis-based support.

The most powerful defensive template is probably Ghost but your DM is unlikely to okay that. Are 3.5 templates allowed? I'm not too familiar with the PF ones.
3.5 is totally okay. And Ghost would be the least odd thing in the party. We have a Vamp, and Worm that Walks Succubus, an Ooze Cloudthing, a Phoenix Lich...so when I said Over-the-top, I meant just that. It is a side campaign that's supposed to be joke-y.


The following requires access to 3e content, but solves your template problem.

First, give a set of Dvati twins the Giant template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1). Dump their mental scores and pump their physical scores.

Then give a different set of Dvati twins the Young template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1). Dump their physical scores and pump their mental scores.

Then apply the Symbiotic template (Savage Species p. 132), with Giant Dvati as the host and Young Dvati as the guest.

Quadruple the support.
Wut. I think I need to go scrub my brain, now. (I actually need to thoroughly read this to get it, though xD)

EDIT: a huge problem with this is that Dvati are one creature, as such templates must apply to both. (That's my GMs ruling, forgot to mention it)

[Extra Anchovies]

3.5 is totally okay. And Ghost would be the least odd thing in the party. We have a Vamp, and Worm that Walks Succubus, an Ooze Cloudthing, a Phoenix Lich...so when I said Over-the-top, I meant just that. It is a side campaign that's supposed to be joke-y.

I am now making Symbiotic Dvati/Dvati a serious suggestion.


Wut. I think I need to go scrub my brain, now. (I actually need to thoroughly read this to get it, though xD)

Symbiotic requires that the guest be at least two sizes smaller than the host. That's why the Giant and Young templates are there, to produce the required size difference.

What you'd have with any other race is a smaller-than-normal version of that race attached to (and basically riding around on/in) a larger-than-normal version of that race. i'm imagining it with gnome/gnome and it's hilarious.

With Dvati, though, it gets tricky. Does each Giant Dvati have a pair of Young Dvati attached to it? Does only one Giant Dvati have a pair of Young Dvati? Does each Giant Dvati have one Young Dvati? Who knows? I personally like the idea of each Giant Dvati having one Young Dvati symbiont. The twin-pairs are Young with Young and Giant with Giant, but the symbiont pairs are Giant hosting Young and Giant hosting Young.


EDIT: a huge problem with this is that Dvati are one creature, as such templates must apply to both. (That's my GMs ruling, forgot to mention it)

Well, yeah. You don't have one Giant Dvati and one Young Dvati. You have a pair of Young Dvati (namely, your player character, the one who takes class levels), with a pair of Giant Dvati as the host (however that works, I dunno). A symbiotic creature uses the physical scores of the host and the mental scores of the guest.

[Alchemyre]

WORDS!

This also doesn't solve my damage avoidance problem. Though it does give me action economy, that doesn't help with not getting rekt, Dvati's main weakness.

[Extra Anchovies]

This also doesn't solve my damage avoidance problem. Though it does give me action economy, that doesn't help with not getting rekt, Dvati's main weakness.

It doesn't give you any more action economy than a normal Dvati. What it does do is it lets you put all of your good ability scores (whether rolled or purchased) into mental stats, and lets you put all of the hosts' good ability scores into the physical stats. Beef up your Constitution some.

What exactly do you mean by "getting rekt"? If you're worried about the split HP, don't play a Dvati. Even if you still really want a Dvati, just get a high Constitution, because each of them gets (HP from HD/2)+(HD*Con).

[Alchemyre]

It doesn't give you any more action economy than a normal Dvati. What it does do is it lets you put all of your good ability scores (whether rolled or purchased) into mental stats, and lets you put all of the hosts' good ability scores into the physical stats. Beef up your Constitution some.

What exactly do you mean by "getting rekt"? If you're worried about the split HP, don't play a Dvati. Even if you still really want a Dvati, just get a high Constitution, because each of them gets (HP from HD/2)+(HD*Con).

Well I was playing with a homebrew feat (basically unholy toughness but for nonevils) and still got destroyed in very little time. SO my alternative is to try and just avoid getting hit at all. The problem with ghost (and other such incorps) is that I can cast my spells on the party.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well I was playing with a homebrew feat (basically unholy toughness but for nonevils) and still got destroyed in very little time. SO my alternative is to try and just avoid getting hit at all.

Invest in miss chances and evasion?


The problem with ghost (and other such incorps) is that I can cast my spells on the party.

Yes, that's quite the problem. Stupid party members, always requesting spells... :smallbiggrin:

I assume you meant "can't", in which case you're wrong. You can still use targeted spells as normal, and since you can still make touch attacks, you can still deliver touch spells (unless the rules changed from 3.5 to PF).

[Alchemyre]

Invest in miss chances and evasion?



Yes, that's quite the problem. Stupid party members, always requesting spells... :smallbiggrin:

I assume you meant "can't", in which case you're wrong. You can still use targeted spells as normal, and since you can still make touch attacks, you can still deliver touch spells (unless the rules changed from 3.5 to PF).

Yes I meant can't. I apologize. The wording in Path is "Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks of effects that work on the Ethereal Plane."

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes I meant can't. I apologize. The wording in Path is "Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks of effects that work on the Ethereal Plane."

Take the Malevolance ability and possess a hireling whenever you need to cast a touch spell? Alternately, pick up a ghost touch weapon (possibly a whip) and use it for delivering touch spells across planes.

[otakumick]

I've always used ghost touch gauntlets when playing a ghost... solves a lot of issues.

[Alchemyre]

I've always used ghost touch gauntlets when playing a ghost... solves a lot of issues.

According to my GM, this totally doesn't work without intensive work arounds. Basically they involve spell storing or Magus stuff...things I don't really want to get into.

[Doc_Maynot]

This Metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/ectoplasmic-spell-metamagic) is used to make spells affect ghosts fully as physical being, a reasonable ruling would be allowing it to work vice-versa

Alternatively, why not this metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic), or since you are using 3.5 content, why not Ocular Spell?

[Red Rubber Band]

Evasion tank (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3536881). This probably won't be what you want, however it should give you some ideas for evasion!

[Alchemyre]

This Metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/ectoplasmic-spell-metamagic) is used to make spells affect ghosts fully as physical being, a reasonable ruling would be allowing it to work vice-versa

Alternatively, why not this metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic), or since you are using 3.5 content, why not Ocular Spell?
Ecto was ruled a no, and I'm not sure how Reach or Ocular solve the problem...Ocular actually confused my GM as to how it is relevant. Unless you're going by the evocation part of ethereal's description.

[Drelua]

Sorry in advance for not contributing at all, but... a worm that walks succubus? So, a pile of maggots that somehow manages to go around seducing people? Well, that's just... that is the worst thing. :smalleek:

[Alchemyre]

Sorry in advance for not contributing at all, but... a worm that walks succubus? So, a pile of maggots that somehow manages to go around seducing people? Well, that's just... that is the worst thing. :smalleek:

They actually rehashed it to be spiders...if that helps you, somehow (I think it's 100 times scarier xD)