I think I might have found a fun new item-combo

[Jowgen]

Take the Boots of Sidestepping from Dungeonscape (not the vastly different MIC item of the same name) and the +1 equivalent Deflecting weapon property from Complete Warrior. Apply the latter to a Masterwork Boot-blade embedded in the former if you wish.

Deflecting makes it so that once per round when you would normally be hit by a ranged weapon, you may make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw and if you succeed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly. The boots of side stepping allow you to use an immediate action to move 5 ft whenever you're "allowed to make a Reflex save against a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural effect". AFAIK, weapon special abilities default to being supernatural. Avoiding the effect means you no longer have to attempt the save.

I propose the following is thusly possible:

Step 1: A ranged weapon overcomes your Miss chances/AC and is about to hit.
Step 2: The Deflecting weapon gives the option of making a DC 20 reflex save to negate the hit
Step 3: The activation requirement of the Boots of Side-stepping is met, as a supernatural effect is allowing you to make a Reflex save.
Step 4: You use an immediate action to activate the Boots of Side-stepping, moving 5 ft, thusly no longer occupying the square and avoiding the attack (and any potential volleys) all-together.
Step 5. The immediate action specifically occurs before you attempt the Reflex save, and you have thusly not used up the 1/round application of the Deflecting weapon.
Step 6: You use your Deflecting weapon normally against the next ranged weapon.

Immediate action to completely disregard one ranged attack and move 5 ft is pretty cool as far as I am concerned. Still having the chance to reflex-save a second attack away on the same round is just icing on the cake.

What do people think? :smallsmile:

[XionUnborn01]

First, the Deflecting enchantment is from Complete Warrior, not Complete Champion. You should probably edit to avoid confusion.

I'm not exactly sure that I agree that the boots activate when you have the deflecting enchantment.

The boots say "You can move 5 feet as an immediate action whenever you are allowed to make a Reflex save against a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural effect."

The enchantment says "Once per round when you would normally be hit by a ranged weapon, you make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw...if you succeed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly."

I'm not seeing how the Ref save for Deflecting counts as a "save against a spell, etc." To me it's just part of the enchantment, it's not 'against' and effect.

That's just my 2cp.

[weckar]

You could MAYBE get away with it for Ray-type effects, but that's about it.

[KingAtomsk]

"Thus" is an adverb. "Thusly" is superfluous.

Also, you are not making a Reflex Save against the effect of the Deflecting weapon, only as a result of its effect. Thus, the conditions to activate the Boots of Sidestepping aren't triggered.

Please note that this conclusion was reached using the language of the items in the descriptions you provided, not the descriptions as published. If the wording is different for the items' actual entries, it may change the validity of the combination in my eyes.

[Heliomance]

"Thus" is an adverb. "Thusly" is superfluous.

Also, you are not making a Reflex Save against the effect of the Deflecting weapon, only as a result of its effect. Thus, the conditions to activate the Boots of Sidestepping aren't triggered.

Please note that this conclusion was reached using the language of the items in the descriptions you provided, not the descriptions as published. If the wording is different for the items' actual entries, it may change the validity of the combination in my eyes.

I would agree with this, but add that it almost certainlywould allow you to say no to rays and other ranged touch spells.

[KingAtomsk]

I would agree with this, but add that it almost certainlywould allow you to say no to rays and other ranged touch spells.

Correctomundo

[Jowgen]

First, the Deflecting enchantment is from Complete Warrior, not Complete Champion. You should probably edit to avoid confusion.
:smallredface:


I'm not seeing how the Ref save for Deflecting counts as a "save against a spell, etc." To me it's just part of the enchantment, it's not 'against' and effect.

Ah, I see, should have probably gone into that more...

My conclusion that the Defelcting weapon Reflex save triggers the boots is based on the premises that "Weapon Special Abilities" create "supernatural effects". The RAW doesn't really do much to define what is and what is not an "effect", but if we go by the dictionary defintion then its "a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause". The "change" is the chance to make a reflex save, while the "cause" is the ranged attack that triggered it, so I think it defineltly holds up as being an "effect". As for "Supernatural"...

The SRD states that "Special Abilities" are either (Ex), (Sp) or (Su), which is addmitedly meant in the context of monster- rather than Weapon- Special Abilities, but RAW-wise it holds up as both are Special Abilities and the RAW doesn't distinguish. The SRD also states the following when talking about Spell Reistance and Immunity: "Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not". With this, weapon enhancement bonuses are specifically called out as supernatural while their equivalent Special Abilties get a Su definition via pedantic RAW and of-course context.

So yeah, based on this my argument is that the Deflecting Weapon Special Ability -when triggered- is a Supernatural effect that allows you to make a reflex save against it's variable DC, thusly qualifying as an effect that can trigger the boots of sidestepping.


Also, you are not making a Reflex Save against the effect of the Deflecting weapon, only as a result of its effect. Thus, the conditions to activate the Boots of Sidestepping aren't triggered.

Even if you don't accept that Saves are rolled against something by virtue of being Saves; any save or check that has a DC is by defintion rolled against that DC


Difficulty Class

Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number (set using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed.

Difficulty Class

The target number that a player must meet or beat for a check or saving throw to succeed. Difficulty Classes other than those given in specific spell or item descriptions are set by the DM using the skill rules as a guideline.



I would agree with this, but add that it almost certainlywould allow you to say no to rays and other ranged touch spells.

I take it you're thinking along the lines of "weaponlike spell qualifies as ranged weapon > also qualifies as spell > deflecting makes it so save allowed against spell > boots activate"? I'd be inclinded to agree, but I'm doubtful whether a Ray would trigger the deflecting propery :smallannoyed:

[Werephilosopher]

Step 5 (the first, you have two) is rather irrelevant; even if you haven't used up your 1/round deflection, you've used up your immediate action.
EDIT: Oops, nevermind, I didn't read carefully.

[KingAtomsk]

I have looked in Dungeonscape at the exact wording now. Without revealing too much to legally post on this forum, the effect of the Boots of Sidestepping is to allow you to move 5 feet as an immediate action whenever you may make a Reflex save against an attack that allows a Reflex Save. Specifically, it triggers when that Reflex save is made against a Spell, Spell-Like Ability, or Supernatural effect.


Even if you don't accept that Saves are rolled against something by virtue of being Saves; any save or check that has a DC is by defintion rolled against that DC

You misinterpreted my point. A saving throw is always rolled against a DC. However, in this case, the save is against a ranged attack as a result of a Supernatural Effect, and not against a Supernatural Effect. Otherwise, everyone could just wear a Starmantle Cloak and wear Boots of Sidestepping and sidestep every attack ever.

In contrast to the situation you've presented, imagine a scenario where you are attacked by a dragon's breath weapon. That attack has an associated Reflex save DC to avoid taking full damage. When you roll your Reflex save in response, it is a save against the Supernatural effect of the dragon's breath, and would explicitly function with the Boots of Sidestepping.

If you are wearing the Boots and holding a Deflecting weapon and somebody shoots an arrow at you, you may make a Reflex save against the attack as a result of a Supernatural effect, not a Reflex save against a Supernatural effect. The boots don't activate.

If you can trick your DM into accepting the interpretation you provided, good on you. It wouldn't fly at my table and I've explained why.

[Jowgen]

I have looked in Dungeonscape at the exact wording now. Without revealing too much to legally post on this forum, the effect of the Boots of Sidestepping is to allow you to move 5 feet as an immediate action whenever you may make a Reflex save against an attack that allows a Reflex Save. Specifically, it triggers when that Reflex save is made against a Spell, Spell-Like Ability, or Supernatural effect.



You misinterpreted my point. A saving throw is always rolled against a DC. However, in this case, the save is against a ranged attack as a result of a Supernatural Effect, and not against a Supernatural Effect. Otherwise, everyone could just wear a Starmantle Cloak and wear Boots of Sidestepping and sidestep every attack ever.

In contrast to the situation you've presented, imagine a scenario where you are attacked by a dragon's breath weapon. That attack has an associated Reflex save DC to avoid taking full damage. When you roll your Reflex save in response, it is a save against the Supernatural effect of the dragon's breath, and would explicitly function with the Boots of Sidestepping.

If you are wearing the Boots and holding a Deflecting weapon and somebody shoots an arrow at you, you may make a Reflex save against the attack as a result of a Supernatural effect, not a Reflex save against a Supernatural effect. The boots don't activate.

If you can trick your DM into accepting the interpretation you provided, good on you. It wouldn't fly at my table and I've explained why.

I do see where you're coming from, KingAtomsk.

Under your reading, the Deflecting property affects the incoming attack, making it so that said attack allows a reflex save to be avoided. As the attack itself isn't Supernatural, the boots can not activate.

Under my reading, the deflecting property affects the character wielding the deflecting weapon, subjecting said character to an effect that allows him to make a reflex save against its DC. As the Boot's effect is supernatural and allows a save against its DC, the boots can activate.

I think there is support for either reading. In support of yours, the Description of the Boots makes reference to attacks in two places (albeit in a somewhat badly written way). In support of mine, the deflecting property states that "you can try to knock projectiles aimed at you out of the air", suggesting that the property directly affects the wielder rather than the attack.

In order for this trick to work, a DM must a) accept the deflecting property affects the wielder as a supernatural effect allowing a save, and b) prioritize the part of text that talks about spells, SLA and Su's triggering the effect over the part that talks about the ill-defined term "attacks".

Considering the level ambiguity in the relevant RAW, a DM would be perfectly justified in ruling either way, based on his understanding of the rules and balance-issue judgement on the matter. I personally don't consider it an unbalanced combo, as a) it only works 1/round (even if using a Starmantle Cloak instead) and b) eats your Swift action for the next round, which can be a very precious resource depending on build.

Just as DM's can rule either way, I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this particular matter, but there are some other implications that I'd like to hear your opinion on :smallsmile:

Under your reading, would this trick work on things like Rays? What about other kinds of ranged magical attacks like Orbs of X or... lets go out on a really thin limb here... magic missile?

Also, how do you see the limitations of the Boot's 5-ft movement? Can you move 5 ft up with/without a Fly speed? Escape from a grapple/web?

EDIT: I just thought of something. Under your reading, the trick does in part not work because the "ranged weapon" in the arrow example does not constitute a Supernatural effect in its own right. What if ranged weapon counted as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, had an enhancement bonus, a weapon special ability or any other kind of "riding" supernatural effect that would affect the wield of the deflecting weapon if hit?

As I mentioned before, the SRD lists weapon enhacement bonuses as being included amongst the Supernatural effects that are un-affected by Spell-resistance. So for example, an arrow shot from a +1 bow would count as a +1 arrow, which would deal an extra point of damage due to a supernatural effect by my reading. Making the save against this ranged weapon would thusly avoid a supernatural attack, so I think the trick workable under your reading in this scenario. :smallbiggrin: