Gish v.s. Dispel Magic

[RoboEmperor]

1 dispel magic and gishes become worthless wastes of space. It's so bad that persistent wraithstrike barely makes gishes viable instead of being high-op because against any encounter with spellcasters, the gish is gonna statistically lose more than half its buffs to an enemy cleric or wizard.

What are some counters to this?

Best I got is:
1. Pearls of Power. Use then to recast your dispelled buffs.
2. Contingency Dimension Door/Teleport. Dimension Door to dodge the dispel magic and appear right in front of the spellcaster's face so you can kill him before he gets a 2nd dispel magic off. OR teleport home immediately. Contingency is set to trigger when opponent finishes casting dispel magic, though I'm not sure if this is gonna work. Would "begin casting dispel magic" be better because you'd disappear and he won't have a target anymore? :\

This is a very serious problem as a Mage's Disjunction is going completely annihilate all of your hard earned gear, forcing you to rely solely on masterwork weapons and greater mage armor for the rest of the campaign since your magical equipment ain't gonna have a high will save.

[Extra Anchovies]

Let's face it, Disjunction screws everyone over.

[Milodiah]

Would "begin casting dispel magic" be better because you'd disappear and he won't have a target anymore?

For some reason this sort of thing makes me think of armored warfare and guidance-system detection stuff. But since magic isn't IR or SALH guided, I kinda suspect the only way you could pull this off is with an intelligent magic item capable of vision/perception and of making Spellcraft checks.

[Umbranar]

Spell turning goes a long way, if you have access to it that is.
I have seen it multiple times that either the party or the Bad Guy tries to dispel something only to have it backfire.

[A_S]

Spellblade weapons (I usually use "weapons" that I don't fight with, like my armor spikes and gauntlets) keyed to Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic go a long way toward helping with this. It doesn't solve the Disjunction issue, but as Extra Anchovies pointed out, that's more of a "PC-hosing problem" than a "gish-hosing problem."
Having access to some sort of decent counterspelling also helps. Reliable immediate-action counterspells (e.g., with Divine Defiance) is best, but you can get some measure of protection with less investment, like Battlemagic Perception and/or a Ring of Spell Battle.
Swiftblade gishes are more tolerant of being dispelled than others because their most important buff, Haste, is [Ex].
Nobody who casts spells competently should ever be a "worthless waste of space," even if their buffs have been dispelled. Keep enough immediate-action defenses and Contingencies to keep from dying in the round you get dispelled, and keep enough non-buff spells available that you can do something worthwhile in the fight besides "I hit it with my (heavily enchanted) axe."

[Extra Anchovies]

Spellblade weapons (I usually use "weapons" that I don't fight with, like my armor spikes and gauntlets) keyed to Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic go a long way toward helping with this. It doesn't solve the Disjunction issue, but as Extra Anchovies pointed out, that's more of a "PC-hosing problem" than a "gish-hosing problem."

1. What book is Spellblade even from? I hear it referenced all the dang time, but nobody ever says what book it's from.
2. Normally, spell immunity/magic immunity only works against SR: Yes spells. Is spellblade an exception?

[A_S]

It's from Player's Guide to Faerun. The text says:
The wielder of a spellblade weapon is immune to a single spell chose at the time the weapon is created....which might run up against the SR:No issue with "immunity," but it then goes on to also say:
When the wielder is subjected to the chosen spell, the weapon absorbs it....without referencing anything about the "immunity" mentioned earlier.

-----

Ask your DM, but my read is that it works (though only on the targeted version).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Here's an old post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?69571-Protecting-Against-Dispel) (warning: don't necro) by Curmudgeon dealing with ways to protect against dispel.

This is what I did with my ol' Incantatrix gish, borrowing heavily from the link above:

1. Try not to get targeted. Invisibility and Greater Mirror Image can help here. Spam a bunch of permanent but useless buffs on yourself with higher CL than normal, and any area dispel you're worried about shouldn't work. The best way to avoid being targeted is with an effect such as Greater Concealing Amorpha since it defeats True Seeing, but that's for psionic gishes only, and blindsight and its ilk still end up countering it.
2. Have counters ready. As listed above, some combination of Divine Defiance, Ring of Spell Battle, Battlemagic Perception, Spellblades, and a variety of other magicks help here.
3. Pump the crap out of your caster level, such that your dispel DC is unbeatable. Persistent Suffer the Flesh (Magic of Eberron), a Bead of Karma, and sundry other ways to increase caster level (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level) help here. If you can be a leader of Circle Magic, a decent number of followers + the caster level option will pretty much guarantee you're not going to be dispelled. It also makes Force Missile an interesting ranged option, since you'll pierce most finite SRs and it offers decent no-save force damage at that caster level.
4. Have contingencies ready for the worst effects, including Disjunction and (oddly enough) Pierce Magical Protection. Targeted effects such as the various dispels and Reciprocal Gyre should already have other counters at this point.

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks for the replies!


For some reason this sort of thing makes me think of armored warfare and guidance-system detection stuff. But since magic isn't IR or SALH guided, I kinda suspect the only way you could pull this off is with an intelligent magic item capable of vision/perception and of making Spellcraft checks.

How about "As soon as YOU detect a dispel magic being cast by the opponent"? Would teleporting mid-casting of the dispel magic make the spellcaster waste his spell? He began casting, but I'm no longer there, but arguably he could just finish casting and it will affect me the same. I dunno, seems unlcear >.<

What's a sure-fire-no-room-for-interpretation combo with contingency that would allow you to dodge dispel magic and greater dispel magic?


Let's face it, Disjunction screws everyone over.

Not my "true" wizard :). I specifically designed that character to be completely equipment independent, so at most he'll be losing his easily replaceable headband of intellect, nothing more, and his band of skeletal dragons don't lose anything from the dispel.


Spell turning goes a long way, if you have access to it that is.
I have seen it multiple times that either the party or the Bad Guy tries to dispel something only to have it backfire.

I thought dispel magic dispels spell turning instead of spell turning reflecting the dispel magic o_o
If this is true then most of my problems are solved!


Nobody who casts spells competently should ever be a "worthless waste of space," even if their buffs have been dispelled. Keep enough immediate-action defenses and Contingencies to keep from dying in the round you get dispelled, and keep enough non-buff spells available that you can do something worthwhile in the fight besides "I hit it with my (heavily enchanted) axe."

Well gishes spend 80% of their spells on self-buffs, well, at least I do. Persistent wraith strike, persistent shield, greater heroism, enlarge person, stoneskin, protection from spells, spell turning, etc. though I was buffing my planar bound servant too, maybe that's why I have so much trouble. If I only buff myself I should have lots of other spells. Hmm....



3. Pump the crap out of your caster level, such that your dispel DC is unbeatable. Persistent Suffer the Flesh (Magic of Eberron), a Bead of Karma, and sundry other ways to increase caster level (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level) help here. If you can be a leader of Circle Magic, a decent number of followers + the caster level option will pretty much guarantee you're not going to be dispelled. It also makes Force Missile an interesting ranged option, since you'll pierce most finite SRs and it offers decent no-save force damage at that caster level.
4. Have contingencies ready for the worst effects, including Disjunction and (oddly enough) Pierce Magical Protection. Targeted effects such as the various dispels and Reciprocal Gyre should already have other counters at this point.

Pumping caster level stuff is out of my league. Our group deems it too cheesy, and we say persistent wraithstrike is normal.

What is your exact phrasing of the contingency to counter disjunction??? I'm researching whether spell turning really deflects dispel magic. If it does then I only need to worry about disjunction!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It works better if you have Battlemagic Perception up and/or other ways to detect spellcasting/SLA use, but basically "If an enemy initiates a Disjunction effect, [x response]," where [x response] could be:

1. [Greater] Celerity (better if you have Quick Recovery)
2. Dimension Door (generally up)
3. If it's psionic contingency, augmented Synchronicity linked to augmented Synchronicity... Psions are pretty neat.

Or others. Be creative. Resilient Sphere works well against the Mage Slayer.

[yoshi67]

Just want to know if this is theoretical or you are actually worried about Dispel and Disjunction. Even when I played a buffing cleric I rarely saw Dispel used against me, and when it did it was usually a minor inconvenience (I tend not to burn all my buffs in single events). I've never seen or heard of anyone using Disjunction except as a plot device. We see it as a game nuke. But that's all DM stuff, and if you are constantly encountering bandits with wands of Dispel, my advice is don't rely to heavily on any one item or spell, and DON'T use all your spells on buffs right before fighting the boss sorcerer!

[Blackhawk748]

I believe someone has already mentioned this but get a Ring of Counterspelling and just keep it filled with Dispel Magic. Also i am going to second the above question as i think i have been dispelled...... once? in my years of playing DnD. This may also be because my group rarely uses buffs, we just try to wipe the floor with our enemies ASAP.

[RoboEmperor]

My DM loves to dispel. Like a wizard and cleric in every boss-ish fight. He counterspells a lot of BFC, but if he sees a gish then instead of counterspelling it's dispelling. If our party is famous then the antagonists of the campaign prepare specific counter strategies to kill us so we gotta keep switching our tactics around.

Ioun Stone is my favorite right now, ring of counterspelling is 2nd because greater dispel magic is my #1 problem, mage's disjunction is #2. He uses mage's disjunction a lot to punish anyone who relies too heavily on equipment, so our games usually revolve around polymorphing fighters instead of crafting them super equipment. If there are any scheming antagonists in the campaign then they will throw mage's disjunction at us, always, but if he acts too predictably then sometimes we successfully counterspell the disjunction.

[Blackhawk748]

My DM loves to dispel. Like a wizard and cleric in every boss-ish fight. He counterspells a lot of BFC, but if he sees a gish then instead of counterspelling it's dispelling. If our party is famous then the antagonists of the campaign prepare specific counter strategies to kill us so we gotta keep switching our tactics around.

Ioun Stone is my favorite right now, ring of counterspelling is 2nd because greater dispel magic is my #1 problem, mage's disjunction is #2. He uses mage's disjunction a lot to punish anyone who relies too heavily on equipment, so our games usually revolve around polymorphing fighters instead of crafting them super equipment. If there are any scheming antagonists in the campaign then they will throw mage's disjunction at us, always, but if he acts too predictably then sometimes we successfully counterspell the disjunction.

Dude, that is not cool. Every one of my Rogues would be very sad as they are equipped like friggin batman, then again most of my Rogues are Assassin and would Death Attack from like 1000 feet so w/e. And tbh Polymorphing the Fighters is worse than letting them have their shiny weapons. Seriously a full BaB Hydra that probably has Combat Reflexes? No thank you, i like my body intact.

Though i do need to say i have no problem with the first bit, as ive done this in one boss encounter, but it is very much not the norm. (for me anyway)

Edit: Get your FNB (friendly neighborhood beatstick) to take Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays, now turn them into a Beholder. Now watch as your DM stares in horror as they are Full BaB beholders chucking disintegrate and finger of death as well as slow and flesh to stone. Apply standard "kneel before me" mad cackles and you are finished.

Now i need to point out i usually dont condone this, as this is potential crash halt material, but this does appear to be what you DM wants.

[RoboEmperor]

Dude, that is not cool. Every one of my Rogues would be very sad as they are equipped like friggin batman, then again most of my Rogues are Assassin and would Death Attack from like 1000 feet so w/e. And tbh Polymorphing the Fighters is worse than letting them have their shiny weapons. Seriously a full BaB Hydra that probably has Combat Reflexes? No thank you, i like my body intact.

Though i do need to say i have no problem with the first bit, as ive done this in one boss encounter, but it is very much not the norm. (for me anyway)

Actually the worse we could do is war troll.
He ruled no way a fighter can use all of hydra's attacks so... if you do turn into a hydra the fighter will control like 2-3 heads only, and number of attacks his original BAB, total not per head.

Yeah... our DM is like a minimalist. He likes to see us kill things with the utmost minimum. No magic shops, everything has to be crafted or researched, and if we spend like 2 years crafting uber gear, we better protect it against the disjunction, which is why I started this thread.

[Blackhawk748]

Actually the worse we could do is war troll.
He ruled no way a fighter can use all of hydra's attacks so... if you do turn into a hydra the fighter will control like 2-3 heads only, and number of attacks his original BAB, total not per head.

Well thats not RAW, oh boy this doesnt look good. Um, go Giant and hurl rocks at them?

Wait! Have your beatstick reroll as a Totemist with a Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian dip. ALL THE NATURAL ATTACKS!! Seriously its freakin nuts.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm gonna go slightly off topic here but your DM sounds like an utter jerk. There is a reason I refuse to use Wave of Destruction or Disjuction on my party and that is loot = good. Dumb question but have you ever tried talking to your DM? He really seems obsessed with trying to remove your ability as players to enjoy the game as it was meant to be played. Dispelling and such is part of it, but he is actively trying to ruin your day and make sure the classes with the greatest need for help don't get it. Maybe if this was explained to him he might understand better that this is probably not the best was of running things.

[Forrestfire]

Since the other things have been mentioned, Wings of Cover will block an area Dispel Magic (since spellblades only block targeted mode).

[Blackhawk748]

Since the other things have been mentioned, Wings of Cover will block an area Dispel Magic (since spellblades only block targeted mode).

On top of that Wings of Cover is just plain awesome, its also a second level spell, so if youve got a Sorc with a Ring of Wizardry 2 you are set forever.

[Psyren]

Dispels are supposed to be the achilles heel of the buff-based gish. That doesn't make gishes useless - many, many encounters don't include dispelling enemies, such as vs. dire animals, monstrous humanoids, plants, oozes and even many outsiders.

Also, note that Spellblades (apart from being setting-specific) are also not foolproof. The spellblade protects you, but not itself. So a dispeller simply has to target your blade to suppress it, then dispel you normally. They can also use a dispelling effect with a different name, e.g. Dispel Psionics, Slashing Dispel, Reaving Dispel, or Limited Wish.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm going to agree with others here and say that your DM is overdoing things a bit. An important aspect of a TTRPG with such a heavy mechanical emphasis is the social agreement that the players and DM will apply the same, or at least similar, level of optimization. Your DM isn't observing that, apparently unspoken in this case, agreement.

The spamming of disjunction is approaching TO levels of optimization and he's nerfing your polymorphs? Foul on the play.

Talk to him. Unless you don't mind having to rekit every so often, and you wouldn't be concerned about stopping it if you didn't, he needs to be told "that's not okay." It makes playing a non-caster an exercise in frustration especially for martial characters.

Frankly, I suspect you have either a very new or very old DM. They're the two groups most likely to try and pull a "low magic" game without fully grasping the metagame structure surrounding WBL. Send him to us. We'll help him learn.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm going to agree with others here and say that your DM is overdoing things a bit. An important aspect of a TTRPG with such a heavy mechanical emphasis is the social agreement that the players and DM will apply the same, or at least similar, level of optimization. Your DM isn't observing that, apparently unspoken in this case, agreement.

The spamming of disjunction is approaching TO levels of optimization and he's nerfing your polymorphs? Foul on the play.

Talk to him. Unless you don't mind having to rekit every so often, and you wouldn't be concerned about stopping it if you didn't, he needs to be told "that's not okay." It makes playing a non-caster an exercise in frustration especially for martial characters.

Frankly, I suspect you have either a very new or very old DM. They're the two groups most likely to try and pull a "low magic" game without fully grasping the metagame structure surrounding WBL. Send him to us. We'll help him learn.

Ya.....learn...... *hides Gargatuan Maul behind back, and begins innocent whistling*

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ya.....learn...... *hides Gargatuan Maul behind back, and begins innocent whistling*

Cute.

But seriously, there are a number of playgrounders that have a very deep understanding of the metagame who would be happy to explain both how and why magic item scarcity is probably the -worst- way to create a low-magic feel in the game and how to make it work reasonably well if you insist on going that route.

Not much to be done about the "martials can't have nice things" mentality except to show him how very much worse can be done with skillful optimization than to simply hit stuff hard. Mind you, that's show him the reasoning and logic, not roll up a top-class wizard and break his game over your knee.

[RoboEmperor]

He's a somewhat experienced DM who said the normal way of playing DnD is boring. His words were "test us to the limit"

Honestly it is sort of fun as the game isn't a simple hack and slash. We gotta constantly prepare for the worst-case-scenario. If we lose a fight it's not "game over", it's "we're all captured and need to somehow escape or otherwise be sold as slaves and try to escape then." Equipment is permanently gone in such a situation. Usually it's up to me to rescue everyone because I'm the coward wizard who teleports away when I deem a fight unwinnable.

Some of you MIGHT remember me posting a topic about how to play an equipmentless wizard. That's for playing with this guy XD

He doesn't bring in opponents with crazy magical gear unless it's a BBEG, in which case I also throw a disjunction or two, mainly to get through his defenses but it also kills the gear.

He doesn't have a playground account, neither is he interested in making one. I just show him the occasional thread.

He does allow some crazy stuff though, like level 17 I can dominate a tarrasque and annihilate stuff and when that dominate is dispelled, no problem since my entire party is flying and we just keep the enemy grounded and redominate the tarrasque after the battle.

Our usual setup is 1 wizard, 1 cleric, 1 druid, and 1 fighter. Everyone except the fighter can perform very well without equipment. Everyone contributes to melee directly or through summons or both.

[Zanos]

A ring of arcane endurance is a fairly cheap magic item that increases the DC to dispel your buffs by 4.
Activating or UMDing a bead of karma to add +4 to your CL while you buff will give you another +4, for a +8 total, making it very hard for anyone to dispel you.

Disjunction is still a problem, because it is for anyone.

BTW, attended magic items use your save bonuses if they're higher. As a gish, your will save should be fairly high.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, I didn't realize Disjunction was being thrown around every other fight,, nor that you were such high level. In that case you either go Tippy level (which I suppose is off the table) or you end the fight ASAP.

Shapechange is your friend. Don't use it for wish spamming, as that will just get shut down. Use it for stuff like Dire Tortoise (your Druid friend can just use Wild Shape + the Enhance Wild Shape spell for this purpose). That way you're pretty much guaranteed to go first, identify who's a caster (persistent Greater Arcane Sight helps with this), and eviscerate them before they can act.

Another fun trick is to find a lesser artifact or two and put it on your person. Enemy wants to Disjoin you? Good chance he loses all spellcasting forever. In fact, let this trick be well-known (as your enemies seem to know your tricks anyway), and enemies should think twice about using Disjunction on you in the first place.

At level 17, with Persisted Suffer the Flesh (+5), Bead of Karma (+4), Ring of Enduring Arcana (+4), Ioun Stone (+1), Ring of Arcane Might (+1), Create Magic Tattoo (+1), and Terran Brandy (+2), but no other CL boosters, your dispel DC would be 46. A dedicated dispel caster with the right spell could hit that, but not reliably. It also makes spells like Skin of the Steel Dragon more fun. The key is that, at this level, only serious dispel casters and Disjunction should bother you.

[RoboEmperor]

At level 17, with Persisted Suffer the Flesh (+5), Bead of Karma (+4), Ring of Enduring Arcana (+4), Ioun Stone (+1), Ring of Arcane Might (+1), Create Magic Tattoo (+1), and Terran Brandy (+2), but no other CL boosters, your dispel DC would be 46. A dedicated dispel caster with the right spell could hit that, but not reliably. It also makes spells like Skin of the Steel Dragon more fun. The key is that, at this level, only serious dispel casters and Disjunction should bother you.

I only have access to Ring of Enduring Arcana, Ioun Stone, and Ring of Arcane Might, which tilts the odds in my favor by +6, but I don't see a rule saying I can't use two rings of arcane might for a +9. That should be plenty! Bead of Karma is for our cleric.

I'll probably start counterspelling disjunction with my gish until my party takes out the arcane caster or he is within range of a moment of prescience boosted power attack, in which case I will kill.

Thanks for the comprehensive list! Now I just gotta add craft ring to my build.

[ben-zayb]

The simple solution is to play a Druid. Instant gish! (+1 BSF depending on animal companion)

Also, unless your Contingency will lead to blocking line of effect or sight (if targeted), using it in response to a spell being castwill do jack.

[RoboEmperor]

The simple solution is to play a Druid. Instant gish! (+1 BSF depending on animal companion)

Also, unless your Contingency will lead to blocking line of effect or sight (if targeted), using it in response to a spell being castwill do jack.

Right, thanks for being specific like that.

I guess there's always contingency limited wish -> wings of cover or... contingency wall of ice! That's it! Doesn't cost a thing and it breaks line of sight.

Clerics are the better "instant gish" than druids, but I don't play divine spellcasters because I don't wanna beg the gods for spells for hours every day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Clerics are the better "instant gish" than druids, but I don't play divine spellcasters because I don't wanna beg the gods for spells for hours every day.

I don't know who told you that but they were mistaken. Clerics are better gishes in the overall but druids are much more "instant" in their gishiness. Wildshape and natural spell; done.

Also, it's only an hour of praying to prepare spells. You could always be a cleric of a cause if gods rub you the wrong way.

[ben-zayb]

Right, thanks for being specific like that.

I guess there's always contingency limited wish -> wings of cover or... contingency wall of ice! That's it! Doesn't cost a thing and it breaks line of sight.

Clerics are the better "instant gish" than druids, but I don't play divine spellcasters because I don't wanna beg the gods for spells for hours every day.

Contingency is limited to 6th level spells (Sanctum Limited Wish, maybe?)

Also, check with your DM/players on how Wings of Cover works on area effects, because it seems dysfunctional (bonus to saves on the AoE is useless if LoE of the spell is already blocked in the first place).

[RoboEmperor]

Off-topic

I don't know who told you that but they were mistaken. Clerics are better gishes in the overall but druids are much more "instant" in their gishiness. Wildshape and natural spell; done.

That's not a gish, that's just a druid who dumped his physical stats :P. I'd really, really love to play druid because I could just stay as a fire elemental all day every day and dump all 3 of my physical stats but... druids are hippies >.< and I am an anti-nature person XD. I hate nature, with all the diseases, infestations, etc.


Also, it's only an hour of praying to prepare spells. You could always be a cleric of a cause if gods rub you the wrong way.

I walked down that road but, man, forgotten realms. How I hate that setting. So a deityless cleric goes to Faerun for a quest and suddenly BAM! No spells. Gotta start begging for an hour every day. Wizards are arguably the same with their dependence on the weave but at least they can abuse stuff with no limit, unlike clerics, who gotta appease their deity. My plan for a dead magic setting is use epic spell to create a transmutation/heal seed spell that changes me into an outsider with an instantaneous duration before the disaster so I may survive until the weave is fixed or something in my private demi-plane. My DM never did a dead magic campaign, but I like to roleplay and if I was a person in d&d, i'd never be a cleric or a druid.

I quote Bead of Summons

Summons a powerful creature of appropriate alignment from the Outer Planes (an angel, devil, etc.) to aid the wearer for one day. (If the wearer uses the bead of summons to summon a deity’s emissary frivolously, the deity takes that character’s items and places a geas/quest upon him as punishment in the very least.)

The only reason I want that bead is so I can call them frivolously and have a perma-servant. You see the problem with divine magic? GRRRRR! Thank the gods for planetars. Wizard + planetar + miracle = all spells in the game.

Back on topic, thanks for pointing out contingency's limit. I'll stick with a wall of ice, stone, or iron, depending on how much money I can afford to throw away.

Contingency + wall seems to really beat a straight up disjunction. Can't believe I haven't thought of it before! I'm so focused on teleportation >.<