Monster Campaign questions

[Blackhawk748]

While flipping through Savage Species i got the idea to run a "Monsters Only" campaign. So i started flipping through the monster classes and what not and i thought of something.

If im taking this monster as a class, why do i need "LA"? My rationale is that since your taking it slowly over time and getting the abilities at, supposedly, appropriate times you should get full HD. And seriously Monster HD are notoriously lousy (Except Dragon and Outsider)

So if i ran a Monster Campaign i would most likely do away with the dead HD levels in the Savage Progressions so my PCs actually have health.

Which brings me to my reason for posting. Who here as actually run a full Monster Campaign and what (if anything) did you change? Also how did it go?

[Extra Anchovies]

There's a number of homebrew classes I've seen for various monsters that act like base classes (i.e. granting BAB, base saves, HD, skill ranks, and class features at every level), they may be a good place to start. They seem fairly high-powered, though, so they may not be optimal depending on how powerful you want the players to be.

[Blackhawk748]

There's a number of homebrew classes I've seen for various monsters that act like base classes (i.e. granting BAB, base saves, HD, skill ranks, and class features at every level), they may be a good place to start. They seem fairly high-powered, though, so they may not be optimal depending on how powerful you want the players to be.

Ive seen those too, thus why i figured i could just add Racial HD to their Savage Progression and it should be ok. I mean look at the Ghoul, it eats up 5 levels but only gets 2 HD? Ghouls are Melee guys and they wont have enough HP to do that, and its not like Undead HD are particularly awesome.

I am going to look at those, at least to see what they did as i am now curious.

[atemu1234]

Ive seen those too, thus why i figured i could just add Racial HD to their Savage Progression and it should be ok. I mean look at the Ghoul, it eats up 5 levels but only gets 2 HD? Ghouls are Melee guys and they wont have enough HP to do that, and its not like Undead HD are particularly awesome.

I am going to look at those, at least to see what they did as i am now curious.

LA is a representation of overall power. Hit dice regardless, as they are only part of power.

[Zakerst]

I have run such before and I just ran it gestalt so that they could get their monster HD when they did and their class HD when they did not so no dead levels but sometimes the monster HD offers more (especially for outsiders). Without such tweeks the monsters have way less HP than they ought with even d8 outsiders having about the same HP as a wizard of equal level and d10s coming in at less than d6s and d12s being about the same, its the kind of thing where one bad hp role will leave someone gimped to no end.

Another reason for going the gestalt route is that the monster classes while cool don't really keep up with regular classes very well in practice even tier 3s. Their casting tends to be gimped their HD hobbled and skills sub par, on the positive side their stats tend to be high but that doesn't really make up for it most of the time.

That said a full gestalt might be too much so a half gestalt might work better only gaining class levels on dead levels.

However if you don't want the head ach that can be gestalt just giving full HD will work ok though the PCs will tend to be a bit more durable than intended, though likely less powerful.

[Urpriest]

Gestalt is an option. Overall though I'd say the homebrew monster classes, while occasionally possessed of balance issues, are also often quite fun and are a good way to run this sort of thing.

[Tanuki Tales]

Depending on what level this starts at, you could also take an ear out of early Pathfinder's book (screw the "updated rules for Monstrous Races" from Advanced Race Guide) and have CR = ECL, with all the HD and abilities baked into just the CR. Mind, you need to eyeball this and make sure nothing bonkers for its CR is getting let it, but it's how my table(s) have run things and we're quite satisfied with the results.

[TypoNinja]

While flipping through Savage Species i got the idea to run a "Monsters Only" campaign. So i started flipping through the monster classes and what not and i thought of something.

If im taking this monster as a class, why do i need "LA"? My rationale is that since your taking it slowly over time and getting the abilities at, supposedly, appropriate times you should get full HD. And seriously Monster HD are notoriously lousy (Except Dragon and Outsider)

So if i ran a Monster Campaign i would most likely do away with the dead HD levels in the Savage Progressions so my PCs actually have health.

Which brings me to my reason for posting. Who here as actually run a full Monster Campaign and what (if anything) did you change? Also how did it go?

Not all monsters are created Equal. Some have more Stats bonuses, special abilties, powers, straight up spellcasting.

Consider a Succubus, shes only got 6 HD, but comes with SR, DR, an impressive collection of spell likes, Shape Change, Energy Drain, enough Cha to make Cha based casting scary, Energy Immunities, Resistances, Telepathy. She gets a +6 LA.

Lets compare her to a 6HD, say... Blue Dragon. Its LA is only four, and its easy to see why. Far more modest stat boosts, only one Energy Immunity, no SR, DR, no Spell Likes. Its claim to fame is 3 attacks, Flight, and a Breath weapon. And despite it being a far more dedicated melee attacker than our Charming Succubus, the succubus will whoop his ass in a fist fight.

[Blackhawk748]

Not all monsters are created Equal. Some have more Stats bonuses, special abilties, powers, straight up spellcasting.

Consider a Succubus, shes only got 6 HD, but comes with SR, DR, an impressive collection of spell likes, Shape Change, Energy Drain, enough Cha to make Cha based casting scary, Energy Immunities, Resistances, Telepathy. She gets a +6 LA.

Lets compare her to a 6HD, say... Blue Dragon. Its LA is only four, and its easy to see why. Far more modest stat boosts, only one Energy Immunity, no SR, DR, no Spell Likes. Its claim to fame is 3 attacks, Flight, and a Breath weapon. And despite it being a far more dedicated melee attacker than our Charming Succubus, the succubus will whoop his ass in a fist fight.

This i am aware of, and of course my system wasnt perfect, its more of a general tweak than anything, as most outsiders are still fairly decent even with the dead levels. It was more targeted at the Trolls and Ghouls of the universe, the Beatsticks who have no friggin health because "their stats will make up for it" :smallyuk:

[TypoNinja]

This i am aware of, and of course my system wasnt perfect, its more of a general tweak than anything, as most outsiders are still fairly decent even with the dead levels. It was more targeted at the Trolls and Ghouls of the universe, the Beatsticks who have no friggin health because "their stats will make up for it" :smallyuk:

The biggest problem here is rebalancing abilities for PCs to have, compared to when monster have them. Monsters tend to only appear for a combat and go away again, So powers with low repeatability work the same. A 1/day power or a 1/year power is the same to a monster fight. The monster uses it once and the PC's never see it again.

Likewise some powers get better out of combat. Fast healing 2 is not impressive in a fight outside of very low levels, on the other hand to a PC, its free healing between every fight that won't take up spells or wands to accomplish.

Make sure you keep an eye out for powers like that so you aren't surprised.