question about Superior Unarmed Strike

[Jackofalltrades]

OK so my DM has allowed gestalt characters in his next campaign. before that i was making a shadow theme whisper gnome rogue, but now i think I'll do a rogue/unarmed sword sage that will become a shadow sun ninja (which i heard is pretty neat!) so one of my feats is improve natural attack to boost his unarmed attack to 1D6. i have flaws which are craven and shadow blade. at character LV 6 i'll take Superior Unarmed Strike, but here is the question. in the Superior Unarmed Strike text it says If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher. now since the unarmed sword sage is considered to have the unarmed attack progression of a monk, does that mean his damage would be considered four levels higher too if he took this feat? if so Awesome, if not, :smallsigh:

edit: i know a unarmed sword sage lose proficiency with light armor, but if he gestalts with a rogue will he get it back?

[lytokk]

Short answer to the superior unarmed strike quandry, yes. You're still going to cap out at maximum effective monk level of 20 for unarmed damage, since there's no progression over level 20.

In regards to the armor proficiency, in a gestahlt game you get the abilties, proficiencies, hit die, and skill points of both classes. SO yes, you'd get your light armor proficiency back. But, there's a little problem of unarmed swordsages not being a fully statted out variant, just an idea for a variant. Some DM's may feel that if you lose your light armor proficiency, your wisdom to AC ability would change, to be more like a monks, as in, if you wear any armor, you don't get wisdom to AC. Some DM's may feel this way, so you'll have to check with your DM regarding the exact specifics of how he/she feels the unarmed swordsage should be handled.

In addition, why the decision to gestahlt swordsage with rogue? It really seems that those two classes don't exactly add much to each other, specificaly since some people view swordsage as an improved version of a rogue.

*edit* also this should probably go in the 3.5 forum. I'm told if you report your post a mod will move it for you.

[Jackofalltrades]

Short answer to the superior unarmed strike quandry, yes. You're still going to cap out at maximum effective monk level of 20 for unarmed damage, since there's no progression over level 20.

In regards to the armor proficiency, in a gestahlt game you get the abilties, proficiencies, hit die, and skill points of both classes. SO yes, you'd get your light armor proficiency back. But, there's a little problem of unarmed swordsages not being a fully statted out variant, just an idea for a variant. Some DM's may feel that if you lose your light armor proficiency, your wisdom to AC ability would change, to be more like a monks, as in, if you wear any armor, you don't get wisdom to AC. Some DM's may feel this way, so you'll have to check with your DM regarding the exact specifics of how he/she feels the unarmed swordsage should be handled.

In addition, why the decision to gestahlt swordsage with rogue? It really seems that those two classes don't exactly add much to each other, specificaly since some people view swordsage as an improved version of a rogue.

*edit* also this should probably go in the 3.5 forum. I'm told if you report your post a mod will move it for you.

okay that's a relief. I'll discuss the AC issue with the DM, i don't think he will have a problem. now to the gestalt, i know there are better classes to gestalt with but i wanted to go rogue because the sneak attack damage with monk damage could add up a bit, and there are some sweet maneuvers that allow for more sneak attacks like sapphire nightmare blade and distracting ember to name a few. plus evasion and a lot of skills is pretty appealing to me.

i didn't know i this wasn't under 3.5 forum, does any one know how to move it. i fairy new to this site and still learning to do stuff. like how do you report your own post?

[lytokk]

okay that's a relief. I'll discuss the AC issue with the DM, i don't think he will have a problem. now to the gestalt, i know there are better classes to gestalt with but i wanted to go rogue because the sneak attack damage with monk damage could add up a bit, and there are some sweet maneuvers that allow for more sneak attacks like sapphire nightmare blade and distracting ember to name a few. plus evasion and a lot of skills is pretty appealing to me.

i didn't know i this wasn't under 3.5 forum, does any one know how to move it. i fairy new to this site and still learning to do stuff. like how do you report your own post?

There's a little triangle icon at the bottom of the post in the poster stats area. Click there. I've never reported a post before so I'm not sure how it works.

I was just curious as to why you'd make that gestahlt, the tiger claw maneuvers could work well since from what I recall most of them were TWF based, but with a certain quick reference website gone I can't look it up anymore.

[Jackofalltrades]

There's a little triangle icon at the bottom of the post in the poster stats area. Click there. I've never reported a post before so I'm not sure how it works.

I was just curious as to why you'd make that gestahlt, the tiger claw maneuvers could work well since from what I recall most of them were TWF based, but with a certain quick reference website gone I can't look it up anymore.

okay Thank you, I'll try and move it to 3.5 forum. for the gestalt i'll look into it the tiger claw stuff

[Petrocorus]

okay that's a relief. I'll discuss the AC issue with the DM, i don't think he will have a problem. now to the gestalt, i know there are better classes to gestalt with but i wanted to go rogue because the sneak attack damage with monk damage could add up a bit, and there are some sweet maneuvers that allow for more sneak attacks like sapphire nightmare blade and distracting ember to name a few. plus evasion and a lot of skills is pretty appealing to me.

i didn't know i this wasn't under 3.5 forum, does any one know how to move it. i fairy new to this site and still learning to do stuff. like how do you report your own post?

You can use the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) instead. It has the same SA progression that the rogue, but better Fort, HP, proficiencies. Which is what the Swordsage lacks.
You can also use the Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) which can have some SA and Evasion the benefit to choose his skills.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade is indeed very good to combine with SA.

[heavyfuel]

You can also use the Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) which can have some SA and Evasion the benefit to choose his skills.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade is indeed very good to combine with SA.

Generic classes aren't made to be used with regular classes though, much like Prestige Pally/Bard/Ranger can't be used if there are regular Pally, Bards and Rangers in the world.

And SNB is bad with SA for the same reason Feint is bad, as both only allow for a single attack with SA damage. If you're basing your character off sneak attack (or any precision damage really), you want as many attacks as possible, which is why TWF is usually the way to go. Distracting Embers is pretty awesome though

[Petrocorus]

Generic classes aren't made to be used with regular classes though, much like Prestige Pally/Bard/Ranger can't be used if there are regular Pally, Bards and Rangers in the world.

How many people actually respect that limitation?



And SNB is bad with SA for the same reason Feint is bad, as both only allow for a single attack with SA damage. If you're basing your character off sneak attack (or any precision damage really), you want as many attacks as possible, which is why TWF is usually the way to go. Distracting Embers is pretty awesome though

Yes, you're right. But SNB is very good for letting you use SA in a situation where you normally could not. And you can have it at lvl 1. Of course, if your adversary is already flanked and you already have several attacks, that's better.

[heavyfuel]

How many people actually respect that limitation?

Beats me.

What I do know is that generic spellcaster is bonkers as it can learn Arcane and Divine spells, and while a well played Wizard can break the game more than that guy, at mid-op, that's just asking for trouble.

[Petrocorus]

Beats me.

What I do know is that generic spellcaster is bonkers as it can learn Arcane and Divine spells, and while a well played Wizard can break the game more than that guy, at mid-op, that's just asking for trouble.

Yeah. That part of generic caster is completely awful.

[Darrin]

Short answer to the superior unarmed strike quandry, yes.


I disagree. A Swordsage has no monk levels, so by strict RAW, they are not considered monks for the purposes of this feat. However, this is really more of an "Ask your DM" issue, as it could be interpreted either way.

I actually prefer it as Unarmed Swordsage = non-monk, along with Battle Dancer, because I'm usually dipping those classes to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike and I would much rather have SUS scale up by character level rather than by monk level. With Improved Unarmed Strike, Shape Soulmeld: Totem Avatar + Open Lesser Chakra: Shoulders, and some other size-related buffs, you can make a much more effective unarmed character with unarmed damage that's competitive or better than a similar-level monk.

What *really* annoys me about Superior Unarmed Strike is it's not a fighter bonus feat (I'm looking at you, too, Snap Kick!), and the +3 BAB prereq usually means that unless your first three levels are full BAB, you can't take it until 6th level, when every other feat you want to take suddenly becomes available. It's pretty difficult to get that feat in the 3rd to 5th level range... sometimes it can be done with Frostblood Half-Orc + Ranger 3, or a Half-Elf Paragon dip if you're really desperate.

[heavyfuel]

I disagree. A Swordsage has no monk levels, so by strict RAW, they are not considered monks for the purposes of this feat. However, this is really more of an "Ask your DM" issue, as it could be interpreted either way.

The problem with the Unarmed or Arcane Swordsage is that they are only suggestions on how the class should work, and not an actual class. This is similar to the other day when someone asked if Unarmed SSs get AC bonus while being unarmored, since the RAW of the SS says they only get it in Light Armor.

Both of these adaptations are in "Ask your DM" territory.