Telekinesis, grappling, and spells that affect grappling

[MilesTiden]

So, I plan on making a 3rd level Ghost Wizard (Two template class levels, 3 Wizard levels. We're required to finish the template class eventually, and can only have one class level in between each template class level) for an arena game on a different forum. As we had a different character a while back that focused on Violent Thrust, I plan on using the Combat Maneuver function of Telekinesis to grapple my foes. However, there are some... wonky rule interactions. For one, I plan on using the spells Balor Nimbus, Claws of Darkness, Babau Slime, and possibly Corrosive Grasp to augment my damage, depending on the amount of prep time I get. (We have a default of two rounds to prep, so my default will just be Claws of Darkness and Balor Nimbus, but in case I'm up against people who are trying to stall me, I want to have more buff spells that affect my grappling.) For Balor Nimbus, it works as follows:


Each round, the flames deal 6d6 points of fire damage to any creature grappling you (or any creature you grapple) on your turn.

Now, this seems like it should work, as I'm grappling them with my own SU ability. For Claws of Darkness, the wording is a little different.


Each claw deals 1d8 points of cold damage. If you grapple an opponent, you deal claw damage with each successful grapple check, and the grappled target is under the effect of a slow spell for as long as you maintain the grapple.

Because of the... odd wording on this, wouldn't it deal damage on every grapple check, to deal damage or not? Let's say the enemy has three attacks, and attempts to escape with each of them and fails. Would I deal the 1d8 cold damage even on these checks? On checks to pin them? On the opposed check to initiate the grapple? And seeing as it doesn't say it overrides the damage I do with a normal grapple, couldn't I deal the claw damage, and then my actual unarmed damage? (Or more accurately, my armor spike damage. :smalltongue:)

I was also thinking about using Share Spells with my familiar, to double up on the Balor Nimbus damage, but that idea fell through due to size limitations on grappling, and also the distance problem. However, I could use the ACF from UA to exchange my Familiar for an Animal Companion, and grab Companion Spellbond, which would solve both of those problems. Also, a grappling horse just amuses me, especially when it's a grappling, flaming, clawed, tentacled horse. Oh Share Spells, how I love thee.

Now, the other question I had is if normal grapple modifiers apply to Telekinesis. I was under the impression that they do, but I figured I should ask the playground. (For reference, I was planning on picking up the Gloves of Titan's Grip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#glovesofTitansGrip), Fearsome Grapple, Improved Grapple, and other things to boost my grapple score, but I want to make sure they apply. Being Undead, Enlarge Person doesn't work, but I can get some Psionic Tattoos of Expansion, augmented to last for 30 minutes, if need be.

I don't feel it's going to be too OP, seeing as it can be instantly defeated by a fourth level spell (FOM), or a first level spell (Hide from Undead), as long as you're prepared, I just want to make sure everything works. :smallsmile: (Also some equipment suggestions would not be minded, but the MIC is unavailable, which greatly limits my options. In addition to the above, I plan on grabbing a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, to counteract the low duration of the spells.) Is there anything I'm missing, or that could work well with my build?

[Vaz]

In argument to Balor's Flame, YOU don't grapple, THE SPELL grapples.

Same with "if YOU grapple an opponent", it's not YOU, it's THE SPELL.

Also, with Telekinesis -

"you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip"

It states it that it's YOU using TELEKINESIS to perform the grapple.

[MilesTiden]

Well, from my view, I am grappling the opponent.


Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

IMO, it's a changing of the conditions required to enter a grapple, and augmenting my ability to do so. I still have to make a melee touch attack (using my caster level and Charisma, as per the spell description), then make an opposed grapple check, and in order to maintain the grapple for further rounds, I have to move into the opponent's space (for free). While silly, I believe this is what the RAW states.

Now, another question. Now that I'm Grappling, do I have to make Concentration checks to maintain concentration on Telekinesis? Concentration checks are required for "casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity." However, the Ghost's Telekinesis ability is a SU ability that duplicates the effect of a spell, so would it fall under 'concentrating on an active spell', not actually being a spell? If it does, I can grab the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting from CA (as the MIC is banned), and (ugh) take Combat Casting, as I still have a free feat or two. This would get my Concentration check up to +19, meaning I automatically succeed on the Concentration check to maintain it in a grapple.

[Kevingway]

No, you are doing the grappling. The Telekinesis description is the equivalent of saying you use your arms, legs, bite attack, etc. to grapple through Improved Grab or other means; you would still apply the effects there despite it not being "you" to do it, instead being your "teeth." That distinction is silly and doesn't exist.

If you want further clarification, your spell doesn't have a separate grapple modifier/check it has to make; it's you making the check, and it's your spell, therefore YOU are grappling.

Now that that's out of the way, everything you described seems correct. Every time they try to escape and fail, you deal damage.

Now if you want extra fun, give your character Profession Executioner.

To answer your new question, yes, you would make concentration checks. I recommend, if you have enough levels, picking up the associated skill trick for swift action concentration and taking levels in Magical Trickster for infinite skill tricks.

[MilesTiden]

Hmm. Actually, I just realized that I can't use Claws of Darkness, as it'll bust my Gloves of Titan's Grip, which drastically reduces my grapple checks. Does anyone know of a way to get the Constrict special ability through spells? The only one I know of that would work is Polymorph... but that explicitly doesn't work on Incorporeal creatures. Damn. (I'll also see if I can get the Octopus familiar from Stormwrack approved, to grab with Obtain Familiar.)