TV vs Comics

[Pex]

I don't read the comics. My experience with superheroes is only through television as a kid, while growing up, and what's on now plus the movies. However, through media reports and lately some wikipedia tags I learn snippets of stories that happen in the comics. I find what's in the comics to be garbage for my taste. It's all tragedy and chaos and misery. Villains are going to do bad things, but what they do in the comics is of such depravity I get to hate the superhero drama. Just recently I read up on what happened in the Flash comics, Barry and Wally and Zoom, and I'm totally disgusted. That is not how I want to think about the Flash. My Flash is the Flash of The Super Friends, of John Wesley Shipp, even of the relatively recent Justice League cartoon despite that Flash being Wally, and now liking Grant Gustin.

It's not just Flash. It's Superman, Batman, X-Men, Spiderman, Captain America will always and forever be Steve Rogers! (I do like Chris Evans' version more than Reb Brown's, but I like Reb Brown and the cartoon is terrific), Iron Man, Fantastic Four, etc. It's not only superheroes. I like the tv show Walking Dead more than the comic which is truly depraved and violent, but I will admit to liking the comic anyway. I like tv's Rick more. I like tv's Carol more. I like tv's Michonne more. (Alright, I do like comic's Andrea and Dale more, but who didn't? :smallyuk:)

Comics may be the canon of the superhero storyline, but not for me.

[Dienekes]

I don't read the comics. My experience with superheroes is only through television as a kid, while growing up, and what's on now plus the movies. However, through media reports and lately some wikipedia tags I learn snippets of stories that happen in the comics. I find what's in the comics to be garbage for my taste. It's all tragedy and chaos and misery. Villains are going to do bad things, but what they do in the comics is of such depravity I get to hate the superhero drama. Just recently I read up on what happened in the Flash comics, Barry and Wally and Zoom, and I'm totally disgusted. That is not how I want to think about the Flash. My Flash is the Flash of The Super Friends, of John Wesley Shipp, even of the relatively recent Justice League cartoon despite that Flash being Wally, and now liking Grant Gustin.

It's not just Flash. It's Superman, Batman, X-Men, Spiderman, Captain America will always and forever be Steve Rogers! (I do like Chris Evans' version more than Reb Brown's, but I like Reb Brown and the cartoon is terrific), Iron Man, Fantastic Four, etc. It's not only superheroes. I like the tv show Walking Dead more than the comic which is truly depraved and violent, but I will admit to liking the comic anyway. I like tv's Rick more. I like tv's Carol more. I like tv's Michonne more. (Alright, I do like comic's Andrea and Dale more, but who didn't? :smallyuk:)

Comics may be the canon of the superhero storyline, but not for me.

That's nice. Glad you found your personal canon.

[Lurkmoar]

Part of the problems with comics, they never end. If you look at their totality, especially Marvel and DC in particular, the super villains seem to win by default with all the crap they get away with. The Joker is an interesting character when done well, but he's been around for over seventy years and racked up an ungodly amount of carnage. Yet, he can practically stroll right out of Arkham.

I remember a buddy telling me that only "Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stay dead." Two of those three are back. Apply that the bad guys and you have to wonder what's the point of any hero doing anything.

The Walking Dead tv show benefits from the comic trying out some story lines in advance. Comic Governor was just a generic Bad Guy. TV Governor was more complex and absolutely terrifying.

If you it makes you feel better, feel free to consider current Marvel and DC glorified fanfic. None of the original writers and artists are working on the long running projects (most of them are dead with some exceptions). Occasionally, you'll get a team that lives up to the original premise and efforts of the creators, but not too often.

edit: Some characters are better out of their creators hands. Deadpool got a heck of a lot better after Liefield.

[Kitten Champion]

No one requires you to read the comics to watch any movie or television show based upon them, so it's not really that big of a problem. Furthermore, while they may have story or character elements you don't like the comics are still where they get most of their ideas. Very probably some things you really enjoyed about the shows and movies you've mentioned came from the mind of some comic book author from a decade or more ago whose work was widely considered successful, albeit usually greatly edited to fit the medium and intended audience... for good or ill.

[Cheesegear]

I don't read the comics.

Straight off, first sentence. Just...Well, what's your point? You're not reading the comics, and now you're still not reading them. Now, if you'd read 20 years worth of comics up until now and were emotionally and financially invested in a comic character, and you weren't liking the direction that certain characters were going (i.e; not!Nightwing in the current Greyson book), fine. But you're not invested. You have nostalgic memories from a TV show you liked once upon a time. That's great. But the TV show has ended, it's done. Whatever has happened in the comics in the last ten years can't change the TV show that you like, because the show is over and can't be changed. Fine. Keep liking your show.
Complaining about something you aren't even invested in rings false.

I've never read a Captain America book in my life, except for when he shows up in major events like Civil War. But even I know enough about Cap's history to know that Sam Wilson - The Falcon - Cap's best friend since becoming de-popsicled, taking up the Captain's mantle makes sense. If you have to tell a continuous story - like current mainstream comics do - having Captain Falcon front and centre makes sense, and allows for a new and different story to be told under the Captain America title. Sam was the first African-American super-hero (though Black Panther would become more prominent, because, well, the name). Why not him? Why not Steve's best friend?
Because Sam isn't Steve. Really? What about when Captain Bucky was a thing that existed? You may as well be complaining about the time when Nightwing became Batman, despite the fact that it makes perfect sense.

But, my point is, I haven't read Captain America, and I don't plan on it either, but even if Sam Wilson is an unmitigated disaster (there's a dedicated Marvel thread, you'd have to ask there), I'm not going to complain about it because I wasn't reading Cap in the first place.

[Knaight]

Complaining about something you aren't even invested in rings false.


You don't have to be invested in the comics in particular to be invested in the broader cultures they are a part of. I also generally don't read superhero comics - I've given some of them a shot (several, really), and I disliked them. I still have the level of investment that comes from valuing fiction as a whole, plus some tenuous connection to the very broad genre fiction category that comics are a part of, plus a direct connection to the very broad cultures that the comics came from, plus a connection to art that comes from having spent a good amount of time sketching in my youth and of appreciating art throughout my lifetime.

I consider this ample reason to hold opinions. That applies even if they are negative.

[RabbitHoleLost]

On the other hand, I do read the comics. I'm invested in the characters and on-going story lines and the fact that no matter what happens, this particular character will probably come around again. My favorite characters continue to persevere, no matter what obstacles come their way.
In this manner, I can't stand Arrow-- and with Flash being my favorite DC (and Wally West's Flash my favorite period), I consider the Flash TV show blasphemy.

I mean, it's all good if that's your preferred canon, I just want nothing to do with it and I refuse to acknowledge it.

As for the whole " Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stay dead."
Tell that to Gwen Stacy :smallannoyed:

[Hytheter]

As for the whole " Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stay dead."
Tell that to Gwen Stacy :smallannoyed:

To be fair Gwen Stacy came back to life in Ultimate Spider Man and the current Spider-verse event has at least one living version of her.

[RabbitHoleLost]

To be fair Gwen Stacy came back to life in Ultimate Spider Man and the current Spider-verse event has at least one living version of her.

I don't count alternate universes, whether in their universes or visiting 616 :smalltongue:
(in which case, Uncle Ben wouldn't count, either)

Although, I do love me some Spider-Gwen

[Cheesegear]

Although, I do love me some Spider-Gwen

I liked Superior Spider-Man. Does that make me a bad person because I liked a Spider-Man who wasn't Peter Parker? Or Miles Morales? Or Ben Reilly (at least when he wasn't whining)?

[RabbitHoleLost]

I liked Superior Spider-Man. Does that make me a bad person because I liked a Spider-Man who wasn't Peter Parker? Or Miles Morales? Or Ben Reilly (at least when he wasn't whining)?

Bro, you might be the only other person besides me on the face of the planet who enjoyed Superior
And I love Miles <3333 What a cutie pie (I do prefer Kaine infinitely over Ben, though. Fav Spidey Clone, even when he's got gratuitous amounts of mangst going on)

If I gave the impression of being a comic puritan, I'm certainly not. There's just certain things I can't abide by, and the way they did Ollie in Arrow rubs me the wrong way (way to take a character and completely change their personality???) and I'm too scared to see how they've changed Barry in Flash.

Anyways, sounds like Pex's issue is that he enjoys the clean images of heroes made for the consumption of a younger audience (which is fine. plenty of people like things that they aren't a part of the intended audience for. MLP, after all)

[Kitten Champion]

I enjoyed Superior Spider-Man. Despite its gimmickry, the actual execution was an interesting examination of a tragically flawed character. A man who, despite his clear genius and occasionally kind nature, is so full of rage, anxiety over his perceived inadequacy, and inability to let go, that everything he builds ultimately ends up in ruin.

It just didn't need to be as long as it was, the story could have been told in about 12 issues.

[Lurkmoar]

As for the whole " Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stay dead."
Tell that to Gwen Stacy :smallannoyed:

Supporting cast is usually tougher to bring back. Google up how they brought back Alfred in Batman if you want a chuckle. C-Listers also usually take forever to come back. Mockingbird is one that stayed dead for quite a while but came back (well, her death was retconned). JMS wanted One More Day to bring back Gwen IIRC.

The fact that Reed Richards pretty much stormed Heaven to bring back Ben Grimm gives me the chills. Why not do that for all the people that die in their typical crisis crossovers? When Siren was told that her father Banshee was dead, her denial made perfect sense to me.

[Metahuman1]

Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stayed dead huh?

Lian Harper, Thomas and Martha Wayne, and at this point Jack Kirby's entire 4th world Mythos all say hi. Or they would. Except. You know. There dead. And have not come back to the best of my knowledge.

[Tvtyrant]

Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stayed dead huh?

Lian Harper, Thomas and Martha Wayne, and at this point Jack Kirby's entire 4th world Mythos all say hi. Or they would. Except. You know. There dead. And have not come back to the best of my knowledge.

And Jason Todd did come back! He loses a lot of fights, just like the old one!

[Pex]

Straight off, first sentence. Just...Well, what's your point?

Vent a little.

Express a point of view.

Share.

Start a conversation.

See if anyone else shares my frustration.

Listen to comic fans on their perspective.

[Lurkmoar]

Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stayed dead huh?

Lian Harper, Thomas and Martha Wayne, and at this point Jack Kirby's entire 4th world Mythos all say hi. Or they would. Except. You know. There dead. And have not come back to the best of my knowledge.

Death by Origin is almost impossible to get around, so Thomas and Martha are staying dead. Were they ever alive in the comics? As for Lian Harper... why must you open that wound? :(

4th World, you talking about the New Gods? You honestly think DC won't bring back Darkseid at some point? :P

[BeerMug Paladin]

I've only really ever read standalone comic stories. And hear about stuff Linkara talks about because his show is interesting.

I thought the JLU show was pretty solid (what I saw of it at least).

I don't know how much this might influence comics directly, but I've always thought it was kind of odd that characters do not age or develop and the setting is static. That alone is kind of silly, but it's not a dealbreaker for stories.

Injecting real world grittiness into such a world is absurd. Which may be the source of your complaints with the comic universes, Pex. It seems to me that comic universes are kind of juvenile by their natures because they have to deal with contrived, ridiculous issues, rather than stuff that real people have to deal with (getting older, new generations replacing the old, adapting to a changing world).

It seems to me that grit and escapism are fundamentally in opposition to one another as a stylistic choice, and not every writer understands that. Maybe that's your problem with the comics?

[RabbitHoleLost]

I've only really ever read standalone comic stories. And hear about stuff Linkara talks about because his show is interesting.

I thought the JLU show was pretty solid (what I saw of it at least).

I don't know how much this might influence comics directly, but I've always thought it was kind of odd that characters do not age or develop and the setting is static. That alone is kind of silly, but it's not a dealbreaker for stories.

Injecting real world grittiness into such a world is absurd. Which may be the source of your complaints with the comic universes, Pex. It seems to me that comic universes are kind of juvenile by their natures because they have to deal with contrived, ridiculous issues, rather than stuff that real people have to deal with (getting older, new generations replacing the old, adapting to a changing world).

It seems to me that grit and escapism are fundamentally in opposition to one another as a stylistic choice, and not every writer understands that. Maybe that's your problem with the comics?
I disagree with you on the basis that most classic comic book characters were created as responses to the political climates of their time (issue one of Captain America has him iconically punching Hitler in the face) and the entire concept of the X-Men is to showcase living with institutionalized discrimination

I mean, Batman is a detective. He started off in detective comics and detective stories in general tend to be gritty.
I'm not sure where you get the opinion that escapism and grittiness cannot coexist in a piece of fiction
The popularity of Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead contradict that point completely

[Cheesegear]

I'm not sure where you get the opinion that escapism and grittiness cannot coexist in a piece of fiction
The popularity of Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead contradict that point completely

For an in-house example, I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't bring up Spider-Man. I would have.
Also, Nightwing and Tim Drake give a wave. In fact, any time three or more of the Bat-Family gets together you know some **** is about to go down, and it's going to be awesome.

For the record, I want the current Grayson title to stop. Just...No.

[Hytheter]

I've always thought it was kind of odd that characters do not age

That's not entirely true; Peter Parker is almost thirty despite being a teenager when Spider Man began.

[RabbitHoleLost]

For an in-house example, I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't bring up Spider-Man. I would have.
Also, Nightwing and Tim Drake give a wave. In fact, any time three or more of the Bat-Family gets together you know some **** is about to go down, and it's going to be awesome.

For the record, I want the current Grayson title to stop. Just...No.
Because of my tattoo, I avoid talking about Spider-Man more than necessary (especially if there are other viable options) because people start rolling their eyes at me once they realize I have an unhealthy obsession
I guess that hesitancy bleeds into text based conversations now :P

And I was looking for popular fiction outside comics (although I guess that would render The Walking Dead moot) in which escapism plays heavily into grit because I think it's ridiculous to hold just comics to that ridiculous "they cannot coexist" standard

[Kitten Champion]

That's not entirely true; Peter Parker is almost thirty despite being a teenager when Spider Man began.

The issue is individual creators didn't want their characters to progress in age while others did. Either approach is fine on its own, but the Marvel comic universe does both at the same time.

The X-Men would, and occasionally do, benefit from a progressive chronology for instance. It's one of several reasons I'd prefer they be in their own continuity. They invent new characters and change the make-up of the team constantly over the years (relatively speaking, of course, comics are a slow medium), with the previous generation going on to do new and different things while the next generation takes their place -- to a certain degree. This lets them expand the number of stories they can tell and increase the complexity of world-building and character dynamics to something suitable for the scope of their premise.

Whereas I'm happy with Captain Marvel and her space adventures, and don't really care that Carol would be in her early 70's by now since it wouldn't benefit her narrative even if it's more "real" at the end of the day.

Putting them together into the same setting however, and it gets confusing.

[BeerMug Paladin]

So, Peter Parker is what, a decade older than he was when his existence began some thirty, fourty years ago?

Not that continuity is all that important, but are all of the characters with a similar origin time in that universe a decade older? Do they strike you as being wiser with the learning that an extra decade of life will generally give someone? Has their life changed in ways which a decade of life would change one's life?

I ask because I don't know. I just don't get that impression from what I've heard people say about the comics.

Escapism is primarily about showing a world free of real consequences or change and living the life of an awesome character with fun abilities and adventures. Escapism is about wanting to be a character because being that character would be awesome. Snarky comments in the face of certain death ahoy.

Grittiness is about showing more of a consequential universe, where actions do have consequences, things change and it isn't always possible to make the best choices or control your own fate. People can get screwed over by no fault of their own. You generally don't want to be the character in this universe because their life sucks.

There are universes which can pull off mixtures of these things for sure. But if you do it wrong, you can easily get forced, ridiculous melodrama, things that impact people that shouldn't, or stuff that should impact people that doesn't.

The stuff like One More Day exclusively happens to de-age the franchise character and revert things to the standards of the favored status quo. So characters never change and situations never evolve unless they do so backwards.

It seems to me that the preferred type of superhero setting for movies and TV uses more of an escapist approach overall. Most problems are just something you punch in the face to solve. Which is simple, and works just fine for a story.

The comics? I don't know, but I get the impression they generally shoot for something halfway and don't execute it very well.

[Hytheter]

So, Peter Parker is what, a decade older than he was when his existence began some thirty, fourty years ago?

Thirty years in real life doesn't equal thirty years in the comics though. We're talking about a medium in which even a single day's events could take weeks or even months worth of issues to unfold, so of course they don't age in real time.

The sliding timeline does muddy things up a bit though...

[Cheesegear]

The stuff like One More Day exclusively happens to de-age the franchise character and revert things to the standards of the favored status quo.

Oh, snap! Dude, when you mention OMD, you have to include a Trigger Warning. You may as well have mentioned The Clone Saga while you were at it.

One More Day/Brand New Day is another one of those stories where people who were not, are not, and will never be invested in Spider-Man got to comment on a story in which they have no interest in anyway, like Superior Spider-Man, Female Thor and Black Captain America...Which doesn't matter because Marvel is currently spruiking 'Spider-Man; Renew Your Vows' for 2015, which will hopefully undo the OMD/BND ending, maybe. But that doesn't matter, because people who aren't invested in Spider-Man aren't paying attention to the storyline anyway.

[RabbitHoleLost]

So, Peter Parker is what, a decade older than he was when his existence began some thirty, fourty years ago?

Not that continuity is all that important, but are all of the characters with a similar origin time in that universe a decade older? Do they strike you as being wiser with the learning that an extra decade of life will generally give someone? Has their life changed in ways which a decade of life would change one's life?

I ask because I don't know. I just don't get that impression from what I've heard people say about the comics.

Escapism is primarily about showing a world free of real consequences or change and living the life of an awesome character with fun abilities and adventures. Escapism is about wanting to be a character because being that character would be awesome. Snarky comments in the face of certain death ahoy.

Grittiness is about showing more of a consequential universe, where actions do have consequences, things change and it isn't always possible to make the best choices or control your own fate. People can get screwed over by no fault of their own. You generally don't want to be the character in this universe because their life sucks.

There are universes which can pull off mixtures of these things for sure. But if you do it wrong, you can easily get forced, ridiculous melodrama, things that impact people that shouldn't, or stuff that should impact people that doesn't.

The stuff like One More Day exclusively happens to de-age the franchise character and revert things to the standards of the favored status quo. So characters never change and situations never evolve unless they do so backwards.

It seems to me that the preferred type of superhero setting for movies and TV uses more of an escapist approach overall. Most problems are just something you punch in the face to solve. Which is simple, and works just fine for a story.

The comics? I don't know, but I get the impression they generally shoot for something halfway and don't execute it very well.

{scrubbed}

This isn't a new thing which is why I'm so flabbergasted by your statements of "it just doesn't work"
Like
Seventy years of comics says it obviously does?

Horrible things happen to Batman consistently. People still want to be Batman when they read comics
Peter Parker is a study on being miserable and yet- wow- people still find him to be one of the most identifiable characters of comic books

[Raistlin1040]

And Jason Todd did come back! He loses a lot of fights, just like the old one!
Heard you were talking smack about Jason Todd.

Fight me irl scrub.

[Tvtyrant]

Heard you were talking smack about Jason Todd.

Fight me irl scrub.

Cassandra Cain could tear him apart almost as easily as I could tear you apart! Come at my thou foul feathered chicken!

[jedipotter]

The Walking Dead tv show benefits from the comic trying out some story lines in advance.


The Walking Dead is a great show, however the comic is utter trash. Now sure, the comic has the basic story and plot, so it gets the big points for that...but then they just ruin it.

Wrong Medium A comic is the wrong place to tell the Walking Dead story. The ''20 some pages of frozen pictures'' just does not do the story justice. The comic has none of the emotion of the show. And the action is worse.

Horrible Art sure it's subjective, but really the average Walking Dead artist has the talent of a three year old. They just kinda sorta draw vague stick figures at random on a page that kinda sorta look like what is vaguely happening in the plot. Sure they want the ''atmosphere'' of ''this comic has crappy art'' or something like that, but bad art is a huge turn off. Bad art is just the comic creators saying ''we don't care''.

Black and White Oh, sure they think it makes the comic have ''character'' or something. And they think the ''black blob pages where you can see nothing are great.'' But black and white just screams ''cheep'' and again ''we don't care about the comic''.

[Zrak]

As for the whole " Only Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd stay dead."
Tell that to Gwen Stacy :smallannoyed:

She did come back, albeit as a clone, during the first Jackal arc. If clones don't count, I feel like a lot more people haven't come back.

[Raistlin1040]

Cassandra Cain could tear him apart almost as easily as I could tear you apart! Come at my thou foul feathered chicken!
Alright milk-drinker, I didn't want to have to crush your puny ass into dust, but you've left me no choice.
Alright, listen up cuz, I know Cass is a mean one.
She beat down Lady Shiva (yo hasn't that been done?).
Yeah, but Shiva's now a Worf, if ever I seen one,
Even Drake got that action, knocks her around for fun.

Yo, check these nerds argue on a dumb TV show. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1zoX5Ax9U)
(What's that even mean, it's a non-sequito')
Just like Cain's character arcs, and her plot devo.
When J-Todd in the room, bodies start hit the floor.

I'll slow down a little bit, I see you got some unrest.
Your Batarang sized brain don't know my lyrical prowess.
When it comes to my rapping, there's one thing I confess
That's I got all the tools to make this battle success.

Let's talk other Robins, how 'bout Tim Drake and D1ck? (Please)
Mentioning them chumps, you know it's making me sick (with laughter).
Knock 'em down in their hometown, Jason drops 'em quick.
Even Batman goes down to one or two easy tricks.

Slow it down once again, let's make one thing correct
I'm not tryna reject or even show disrespect
But your threats are a check that your rap can't collect
So it's right back at you, your junk that I redirect.

Winding down now, don't wanna leave me unchecked.
Gonna be honest, I find your rapping suspect.
Shoulda thought of that before my main man you select
Now you reap what you sow, and that's you gonna get wrecked.

It's like bam, one-two, you get lyrically decked.
Your brain out your skull, that's what I'm gonna eject.
Unlike Todd, when I drop you there'll be just one effect
No matter what, straight promise, you won't resurrect.

(That's tight.
Yo check that.
Stamp it, box it, send it to Mister Terrific.
Tell him a new boy's in town.)

[Kitten Champion]

In my view a character hasn't come back unless they survive past the current story arc. For instance, in the current All-New Ultimate Spider-Man - the one about Miles Morales becoming Spider-Man after Peter Parker's death - Peter Parker is supposedly back alive and well... somehow. The chances of that lasting don't seem terribly high, which the genre savvy characters seem to be aware of, if obliquely.

There's also Captain Marvel - the original Mar-Vell that is - who is most famous for dying in a fairly elegant comic in the early 80's. I've seen several instances of writers resurrecting him, but these never last longer than the immediate story since I don't think anyone really wants to use the character for more than the fact that he's a character known to be dead rather than just conveniently absent from comics for a year or two, giving him a certain significance which say, the died-last-Tuesday Wolverine wouldn't.

[Zrak]

Fair enough, that makes sense.

Does Wolverine really die-die that often? I feel like he's dead-for-a-couple-seconds-until-his-healing-kicks-in a lot, but I don't remember him being formally killed off before this latest storyline.

[Kitten Champion]

Fair enough, that makes sense.

Does Wolverine really die-die that often? I feel like he's dead-for-a-couple-seconds-until-his-healing-kicks-in a lot, but I don't remember him being formally killed off before this latest storyline.

I don't think so, who would round out every supergroup short of the Guardians of the Galaxy then? No seriously, he's been used contemporaneously by so many writers over the last decade that "killing" him in any convincing fashion - even just for a few issues - would need some level of planning well ahead of time.

[Devonix]

In my view a character hasn't come back unless they survive past the current story arc.

I agree, I also say that a character isn't dead, unless they've been dead for a whole storyarc.

You have people who say that Jean Grey has died and come back 500 times, when she's only done so twice in the history of the character.

All of the others were, Dead for an issue, revealed to have been alive all along, or her clone died but she's alive. Or a completely different alternate universe version with no connection to the original Jean.

[RabbitHoleLost]

She did come back, albeit as a clone, during the first Jackal arc. If clones don't count, I feel like a lot more people haven't come back.

I don't count clones, especially when it comes to Spidey characters (otherwise Kaine and Ben might as well just be counted as Peter)

[Kitten Champion]

I agree, I also say that a character isn't dead, unless they've been dead for a whole storyarc.


True, that's not just for comics -- who knows how much fiction involves characters being supposedly killed off early in a story only to re-emerge when dramatically convenient.

[Pronounceable]

{scrubbed}

[Raistlin1040]

{scrubbed}Careful friend, you don't want to cut yourself on that edge.

[Zrak]

{scrubbed}

Let's see you get out of this one, Harold Bloom!

[Zmeoaice]

I find what's in the comics to be garbage for my taste. It's all tragedy and chaos and misery. Villains are going to do bad things, but what they do in the comics is of such depravity I get to hate the superhero drama.

I haven't read much modern comics (or much comics in general), although if you're looking for fantasy escapism, then you should try reading the Silver Age comics. Marvel is more cohesive than DC since DC didn't care about continuity until 1985 while Earth-616 has existed since Fantastic Four #1.

[RabbitHoleLost]

{scrubbed}

[Pronounceable]

{scrubbed}

[Man on Fire]

However, through media reports and lately some wikipedia tags I learn snippets of stories that happen in the comics. I find what's in the comics to be garbage for my taste. It's all tragedy and chaos and misery. Villains are going to do bad things, but what they do in the comics is of such depravity I get to hate the superhero drama.

You know, coming from guy like me, who whines about some awful comics a LOT, this may sound strange, but... generalization much? There are many comics that are not what you're describing. Sure, many are, but not everything. Just from Marvel I can name you few books that are pretty fun. 2014 Ms. Marvel. Kieron Gillen and Kathryn Immoen's runs on Journey Into Mystery. 2013 Young Avengers. Loki: Agent of Asgard. Al Ewing's Mighty Avegers. All-New Ghost Rider (okay, it's brutal and violent but main character's relation with younger brother is most adorable thing ever). Mark Waid's Daredevil. Gerry Duggan's Deadpool (through it CAN get dark, "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" was for example really depressing). Nova. Rocket Racoon. Chris Yost's Scarlet Spider and New Warriors. Superior Foes of Spider-Man. Goddamit, Squirrel Girl is getting a book next year. DC I know less, but still, even there we have Batgirl from #35 on, where new creative tam decided to drop dark tone and make it fun. Gotham Academy. Harley Quinn. Justice League 3000.
Do we have dark and often really bad stuff. Yeah. Garbage like Spider-Verse, Avenges Arena and Avengers Undercover exists. But good stuff is out there, you just have to look for it.


Just recently I read up on what happened in the Flash comics, Barry and Wally and Zoom, and I'm totally disgusted. That is not how I want to think about the Flash. My Flash is the Flash of The Super Friends, of John Wesley Shipp, even of the relatively recent Justice League cartoon despite that Flash being Wally, and now liking Grant Gustin.

It's not just Flash. It's Superman, Batman, X-Men, Spiderman, Captain America will always and forever be Steve Rogers! (I do like Chris Evans' version more than Reb Brown's, but I like Reb Brown and the cartoon is terrific), Iron Man, Fantastic Four, etc.

Things change. It's the natue of the genre. Sometimes they change for the better. Sometimes they change for the worse. And often, very often, especially with these guys you mentioned, they change back to what people felt was best before. Every superhero has their ups and downs, better and worse runs. Sometimes they might take time to recover from the bad ones, maybe never recover fully. But it's not that they're betraying you or actively trying to destroy something. They're just taking things in a direction you don't like. Complain about it, sure. Vote with your wallet and buy other stuff, it hardly works, but it's the best option.

I have to ask - why did you make this thread? It looks to me like you just want to vent your hate for the medium and kinda feels like you want people to vaildate your choices, which is weird.

[Tvtyrant]

Alright milk-drinker, I didn't want to have to crush your puny ass into dust, but you've left me no choice.
Alright, listen up cuz, I know Cass is a mean one.
She beat down Lady Shiva (yo hasn't that been done?).
Yeah, but Shiva's now a Worf, if ever I seen one,
Even Drake got that action, knocks her around for fun.

Yo, check these nerds argue on a dumb TV show. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1zoX5Ax9U)
(What's that even mean, it's a non-sequito')
Just like Cain's character arcs, and her plot devo.
When J-Todd in the room, bodies start hit the floor.

I'll slow down a little bit, I see you got some unrest.
Your Batarang sized brain don't know my lyrical prowess.
When it comes to my rapping, there's one thing I confess
That's I got all the tools to make this battle success.

Let's talk other Robins, how 'bout Tim Drake and D1ck? (Please)
Mentioning them chumps, you know it's making me sick (with laughter).
Knock 'em down in their hometown, Jason drops 'em quick.
Even Batman goes down to one or two easy tricks.

Slow it down once again, let's make one thing correct
I'm not tryna reject or even show disrespect
But your threats are a check that your rap can't collect
So it's right back at you, your junk that I redirect.

Winding down now, don't wanna leave me unchecked.
Gonna be honest, I find your rapping suspect.
Shoulda thought of that before my main man you select
Now you reap what you sow, and that's you gonna get wrecked.

It's like bam, one-two, you get lyrically decked.
Your brain out your skull, that's what I'm gonna eject.
Unlike Todd, when I drop you there'll be just one effect
No matter what, straight promise, you won't resurrect.

(That's tight.
Yo check that.
Stamp it, box it, send it to Mister Terrific.
Tell him a new boy's in town.)

I'm going to have to bow out
your rhymes are so good they make Todd shout
"I just punched Cassandra Cain in her snout
and now there ain't nothing for you to do but pout."

[jedipotter]

There are many comics that are not what you're describing. Sure, many are, but not everything.

With comics, you really need to pick and choose. You can't just grab stuff at random and expect it to be good. A good trick that most comic readers learn quick is to follow a writer you like. It does not matter what they write, chance are if you like their writing style, you will like it. And you learn the writers you don't like, so you just avoid them.




Things change. It's the natue of the genre. Sometimes they change for the better. Sometimes they change for the worse. And often, very often, especially with these guys you mentioned, they change back to what people felt was best before. Every superhero has their ups and downs, better and worse runs. Sometimes they might take time to recover from the bad ones, maybe never recover fully. But it's not that they're betraying you or actively trying to destroy something. They're just taking things in a direction you don't like. Complain about it, sure. Vote with your wallet and buy other stuff, it hardly works, but it's the best option.

In a general sense, even if you love a character, you should really not read the comic for too much more then a year. Sure, you can give the new writer a chance, but only a small one. Though there are plenty of other comics to pick from.

[MLai]

Yes, that's a common mistake of the comic-reading novice: He follows the character, not the writer.
Personally I follow the artist, because I couldn't care less about the story.

[Lurkmoar]

Yes, that's a common mistake of the comic-reading novice: He follows the character, not the writer.
Personally I follow the artist, because I couldn't care less about the story.

What about a writer like Neil Gaiman? Or perhaps Alan Moore?

Well, Moore did write Lost Girls. *shiver*

Edit: I like Robert Kirkman, but I didn't care for his Ultimate X-Men. So following a writer doesn't always work, sometimes they they drop a stinker.

[MLai]

What about a writer like Neil Gaiman? Or perhaps Alan Moore?
It's a bonus when the artist also writes his own stories, like Japanese mangaka.
When a particular work is really famous for its writing, like say Sandman, yes sure.
But I typically don't follow comics, and merely snatch stuff off the rack because I saw and liked the art, or because I know I like the art of the artist whose name is on it (for example Joe Mad before he became a game artist).

[Cheesegear]

Yes, that's a common mistake of the comic-reading novice: He follows the character, not the writer.
Personally I follow the artist, because I couldn't care less about the story.

Wrong. 'Wait for Trades' is the correct answer.

If you're not willing to keep up to date with a character, don't even try. Some of the stuff that gets published week-to-week is trash, and even more of it is simply filler until the Editor drops a new story arc, or another writer picks up the title with a good story idea that the current writer just doesn't have. Another poster above applied Sturgeon's Law to comics, he wasn't wrong, but he certainly could have been less hostile.

By waiting for Trades, you wait until the arc/story is done. When the whole thing is done, a lot of people can have better, more complete reviews of the storyline as a whole, and you, as a consumer, are more informed about what you should and shouldn't buy, and whether or not a storyline for the character of your choice is worth your time (New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws makes me pretty sad for people who like JT). Linkara does some very good work, but very rarely does he review whole arcs - if you listened to him, and only him, you may think that Spider-Man's Clone Saga was the worst thing ever. The Clone Saga wasn't bad, just complicated (which is synonymous with bad, to some), and out of the Clone Saga we got Ben Reilly and Kaine, two excellent characters, overall. Point is, waiting for Trades gives you the opportunity as a consumer with a brain, to get a complete product. If a certain storyline or issue/s never make it to Trade, it probably wasn't any good to begin with, and you don't need to bother.

[Man on Fire]

With comics, you really need to pick and choose. You can't just grab stuff at random and expect it to be good. A good trick that most comic readers learn quick is to follow a writer you like. It does not matter what they write, chance are if you like their writing style, you will like it. And you learn the writers you don't like, so you just avoid them.


Actually, one must be wary, because there is a trap in this line of thinking. In these days if writer is good and popular in mainstream comics (so Marvel or DC) he is very likely to be put on big name property. In DC it would be Batman, Superman or JLA and lately Green Lantern. In Marvel - major Avengers (Avengers, New Avengers, Uncanny Avengers right now) or X-Men (Uncann X-Men, All-New X-Men right now) books or big name characters (Spider-Man, Wolverine, Captain America). And they're likely to do lousy job on them because either they face stricter editorial control now or they don't really care about quality of something that will sell anyway.
And this way you also tend to gloss over works of writers you never read before. Better way is to follow a writer and if you like character they wrote, seek other good books with them.


In a general sense, even if you love a character, you should really not read the comic for too much more then a year. Sure, you can give the new writer a chance, but only a small one. Though there are plenty of other comics to pick from.

Actually, these days comics tend to restart from the new #1 ith every creative team change, keeping old numeration when writers leave is unlikely.


Wrong. 'Wait for Trades' is the correct answer.

And it's killing comics. No, seriously, big 2 don't care about trades as much as they do about the floppy issues. Book selling badly by issue is going to get cancelled and high trade sales won't help at all. Just recently Peter David wa complaining about ho trade waiting killed his All-New X-Factor.


If you're not willing to keep up to date with a character, don't even try. Some of the stuff that gets published week-to-week is trash, and even more of it is simply filler until the Editor drops a new story arc, or another writer picks up the title with a good story idea that the current writer just doesn't have. Another poster above applied Sturgeon's Law to comics, he wasn't wrong, but he certainly could have been less hostile.


By waiting for Trades, you wait until the arc/story is done. When the whole thing is done, a lot of people can have better, more complete reviews of the storyline as a whole, and you, as a consumer, are more informed about what you should and shouldn't buy, and whether or not a storyline for the character of your choice is worth your time

Except that it creates it's own problems. One being abovementioned good books being cancelled for poor sales. Another being that it makes writers write for the trade, dragging out the plot over 6 issues, when it could easily be done in one. Worse, these days we have people like Hickman or Remender, who write for Omnibus. And there are comics that do tell complete story in one issue, Warren Ellis' Moon Knight being a good example from this year.

[Cheesegear]

And it's killing comics. No, seriously, big 2 don't care about trades as much as they do about the floppy issues.

The sad thing is, I know. 'Waiting for Trades' is good for the consumer, but bad for the publisher, which ultimately is bad for the consumer as well, since stuff gets cancelled. But, like I said, if you're the kind of person who doesn't keep up with current comics, your only option is Trades, because their quality is (usually) proven by that point, and a lot of people can vouch for it. What people can't do, is vouch for comics they haven't read yet. Will a plotline be resolved? More annoyingly, will it be resolved under a different title?

Check this out, Night of the Owls (I hate Batman, but I love the Bat-family)

All-Star Western (Volume 3) #9 (Vengeance in the Big Easy)
Batwing #9 (You Have Been Judged Unworthy)
Batgirl (Volume 4) #9 (In the Line of Fire)
Batman (Volume 2) #8 (Attack on Wayne Manor and The Call)
Batman and Robin (Volume 2) #9 (Robin Hears a Hoo)
Nightwing (Volume 3) #8 (Bloodlines)
Red Hood and the Outlaws #9 (Who Are You? -- Hoo? Hoo?)
Batman (Volume 2) #9 (Night of the Owls)
Detective Comics (Volume 2) #9 (The Owls Take Arkham)
Birds of Prey (Volume 3) #9 (Gangland Style)
Nightwing (Volume 3) #9 (The Gray Son)
Batman: The Dark Knight (Volume 2) #9 (I Can No Longer Be Broken)
Batman Annual (Volume 2) #1 (First Snow)
Catwoman (Volume 4) #9 (Mirrors Come in All Sizes)
Batman (Volume 2) #9 (The Fall of the House of Wayne, Part I)
Batman (Volume 2) #10 (The Fall of the House of Wayne, Part II)
Batman (Volume 2) #11 (The Fall of the House of Wayne, Conclusion)

That's insane. Luckily, 'there's a Trade for that'.

[Man on Fire]

Those are events, they are generated and ploted and spread in order to make people buy the most. I've only read the trade containing Batman stories and knew all I needed to (it as published in my country and Court of Ols was one of the few good bat stoies I've read in years. Night of the Owls hoever, was a big dissapointment.). If you don't care about "star" of the event, then yeah, you're in trouble. I would more or less suggest sticking to books you follow and when they do a tie-in to a big event, drop those issues and eturn to once the book is free of them. If they turn out to be important, you can always buy them later.


But, like I said, if you're the kind of person who doesn't keep up with current comics, your only option is Trades, because their quality is (usually) proven by that point, and a lot of people can vouch for it. What people can't do, is vouch for comics they haven't read yet. Will a plotline be resolved? More annoyingly, will it be resolved under a different title?

Well, I think better idea from industry standpoint is to buy issues as they go and stop if quality drops. Or if new creative team is people you dislike.

But yeah, I get it why people may preffer trades. And there is nothing wrong about it. Wish there could be a way for trade-waiting to more positively impact the books they want to support.

Really, the biggest problem with modern maisntream comics is that you need to be smart about buying them. The market is a minefield.

[Cheesegear]

Wish there could be a way for trade-waiting to more positively impact the books they want to support.
Really, the biggest problem with modern maisntream comics is that you need to be smart about buying them. The market is a minefield.

I agree completely with both statements.

[jedipotter]

Actually, one must be wary, because there is a trap in this line of thinking. And they're likely to do lousy job on them because either they face stricter editorial control now or they don't really care about quality of something that will sell anyway.
And this way you also tend to gloss over works of writers you never read before. Better way is to follow a writer and if you like character they wrote, seek other good books with them.


You always need to be alert for this, but if you follow a writer there is at least a good chance your going to like the work as you like the writer. But not always. And there is always a chance that there might be executive stuff like when they say ''We want Captain America to act like he is five!'' and sometimes they are given a railroad story like ''ok, he will go to a volcano and fall in and ''die, um just write that.''

And you should always check out other books...after all every writer was new to you once. I use the bargain bins for this....

[Man on Fire]

You always need to be alert for this, but if you follow a writer there is at least a good chance your going to like the work as you like the writer. But not always. And there is always a chance that there might be executive stuff like when they say ''We want Captain America to act like he is five!'' and sometimes they are given a railroad story like ''ok, he will go to a volcano and fall in and ''die, um just write that.''

And you should always check out other books...after all every writer was new to you once. I use the bargain bins for this....

I'm doing something familiar. I follow certain writers and characters. Othes I check if I'm interested (Superior Iron Man is good example - I don't like Tony but premise intrigued me enough) and if I like writer I check his other works (I'm going to check Injustice because SIM is hialrous)and if I like character - other comics with them.

Of couse it's important to have a banlist. For example I don't touch anything written by Dennis Hopeless. Because he is horrible writer and his books made me literally sick in the past.

[dps]

Death by Origin is almost impossible to get around, so Thomas and Martha are staying dead. Were they ever alive in the comics?

Yeah, if a character's death is part of an origin story, they stay dead (at least in the main continuity--alternate universes, what-ifs, and the like can be a different animal), so Uncle Ben and Bruce's parents stay dead.

And I think you're correct that the Waynes were never actually alive in the comics per se--they only show up in flashbacks and such. Uncle Ben, OTOH, was alive at the start of Spiderman.

[jedipotter]

Of couse it's important to have a banlist. For example I don't touch anything written by Dennis Hopeless. Because he is horrible writer and his books made me literally sick in the past.


Yup, and Chris Claremont is on my ban list.....oh, such horrible writing.

And JMS. You'd think that after writing a couple season of Babylon 5 he'd be good, but then you need to remember that all the ''worst B5 episodes'' were written by him too. And he has a hard time doing superheros and not adding all his personal ''wacky Minbari'' beliefs into everything.

[Lurkmoar]

Yeah, if a character's death is part of an origin story, they stay dead (at least in the main continuity--alternate universes, what-ifs, and the like can be a different animal), so Uncle Ben and Bruce's parents stay dead.

And I think you're correct that the Waynes were never actually alive in the comics per se--they only show up in flashbacks and such. Uncle Ben, OTOH, was alive at the start of Spiderman.

Fun fact, he's never been alive in a Spider-Man comic. He died in Amazing Fantasy, which as I recall was a showcase type book similar to Journey into Mystery and such. And Amazing Fantasy got canned because of low sales due to it being called Amazing Adult Fantasy.

I feel like such a dork right now.




And JMS. You'd think that after writing a couple season of Babylon 5 he'd be good, but then you need to remember that all the ''worst B5 episodes'' were written by him too. And he has a hard time doing superheros and not adding all his personal ''wacky Minbari'' beliefs into everything.

Superman: Grounded. Interesting idea, Superman walks the country trying to connect with the common man, but horrible dialogue and Superman being a **** make it awful. And it wasn't even the fun kind of Superdickery.

[Man on Fire]

I liked JMS' Spider-Man run, but then I stopped reading it right before the Other so I skipped the bad crossovers. I kinda find it funny how back then people hated tothemic elements and Morlun and now, when Slott is using them, they wish JMS came back with "classic Morlun".

But then there is JMS Strange: Beginnings And Endings and dear lord does this book sucks. It's like Man of Steel of Doctor Strange - like if somebody tried to make a Doctor Strange story while being ashamed it's Doctor Strange story.

[Aolbain]

The Walking Dead is a great show, however the comic is utter trash. Now sure, the comic has the basic story and plot, so it gets the big points for that...but then they just ruin it.

Wrong Medium A comic is the wrong place to tell the Walking Dead story. The ''20 some pages of frozen pictures'' just does not do the story justice. The comic has none of the emotion of the show. And the action is worse.

Horrible Art sure it's subjective, but really the average Walking Dead artist has the talent of a three year old. They just kinda sorta draw vague stick figures at random on a page that kinda sorta look like what is vaguely happening in the plot. Sure they want the ''atmosphere'' of ''this comic has crappy art'' or something like that, but bad art is a huge turn off. Bad art is just the comic creators saying ''we don't care''.

Black and White Oh, sure they think it makes the comic have ''character'' or something. And they think the ''black blob pages where you can see nothing are great.'' But black and white just screams ''cheep'' and again ''we don't care about the comic''.


:smallconfused:

[Lurkmoar]

:smallconfused:

People are entitled to their opinion no matter how much you disagree with them. Just relax and remember that this is the internet. You don't need to be the part that blows up daily right? :)

[Aolbain]

People are entitled to their opinion no matter how much you disagree with them. Just relax and remember that this is the internet. You don't need to be the part that blows up daily right? :)

It wasnt meant to be angry, just perplexed. If I'd been angry, I'd just have used :smallfurious:, :smallmad: or :smallyuk:

[Zrak]

I think the only part of that that really earned a perplexed face was the black and white part. I can see the rest; the point about a TV show getting to pick and choose what elements of the plot it keeps makes perfect sense, and I could see the "rough" art style being love-or-hate, but I feel like enough solid work has been done in black and white and even intentionally done in black and white that it's hard to hold that against something.

[MLai]

I think the only part of that that really earned a perplexed face was the black and white part. I can see the rest; the point about a TV show getting to pick and choose what elements of the plot it keeps makes perfect sense, and I could see the "rough" art style being love-or-hate, but I feel like enough solid work has been done in black and white and even intentionally done in black and white that it's hard to hold that against something.
How is "Comics medium is not good enough to tell Walking Dead" not worthy of earning a perplexed face? That's as much a slap in the face by an ignoramus as "Black & White sucks." He's basically saying that the medium is unworthy to tell any story that's remotely any good.

[Raimun]

Yes, superhero stories in TV are canon.

But so are the ones in comics.

Ever heard of multiverse? Both DC and Marvel have it. Comics, tv-shows and movies are all canon but they happen in different universes.

For example, the main Marvel Universe is Earth-616. Marvel Cinematic Universe is Earth-199999.

I swear I'm not making this up.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I swear I'm not making this up.
It sounds kind of silly. But it's no sillier than the various levels of canon in the vast Star Wars media out there.

At some point, I think worrying about canon is kind of pointless. Long used characters just eventually become icons which can be used individually in either good ways or bad ways. Good writers will use the character in good ways and bad writers probably won't.

Mario is one such iconic character, but nobody demands a timeline for his adventures because everyone understands the basic principles of the character and the only thing that matters now is what is happening now.

Stuff like that should go for Star Trek/Wars, comics and probably any open ended franchise with multiple authors that has existed for 20 years or more. Because to do otherwise when things get to that point would be an extraordinary mess.

I do understand the fandom appeal of wanting a fantasy universe to remain self-consistent and ongoing. But realistically, that's just too much to expect from material that just goes on for that long.
Although it does give me an idea for a way to explain plot inconsistencies. "That was another universe where things like that happen."

Like the wizard that did it, or the will of the force, that sounds like an easy get out of nerd-jail free card.

[Lurkmoar]

In all honesty, I care more about consistency then canon.

That is, I expect various adaptions of a work to deviate from a canon work, I just hope that the deviations are consistent with themselves, ie I'd be annoyed if flying zombies showed up in the Walking Dead tv show.

[Raimun]

Canon is important.

Otherwise people start insisting that Transformers and Sonic the Hedgehog are part of all the stories.

And we really don't want that.

[Lurkmoar]

Canon is important.

Otherwise people start insisting that Transformers and Sonic the Hedgehog are part of all the stories.

And we really don't want that.

Snowflame was canon. The guy that got his power from an illegal white powdery substance.

Punisher and Archie along with GI Joe and Transformers have already been published in an official capacity. They're not canon, but I didn't find either one inconsistent with the original source material. Think Spider-Man crossed paths with the Transformers too... gonna have to go check up on that. Canon is useful when talking to someone else about a work, otherwise...

[Devonix]

Snowflame was canon. The guy that got his power from an illegal white powdery substance.

Punisher and Archie along with GI Joe and Transformers have already been published in an official capacity. They're not canon, but I didn't find either one inconsistent with the original source material. Think Spider-Man crossed paths with the Transformers too... gonna have to go check up on that. Canon is useful when talking to someone else about a work, otherwise...

The Transformers and GI Joe books are Canon, they are just in a separate continuity from the Transformers or Gi Joe books.

[Knaight]

At some point, I think worrying about canon is kind of pointless. Long used characters just eventually become icons which can be used individually in either good ways or bad ways. Good writers will use the character in good ways and bad writers probably won't.

Mario is one such iconic character, but nobody demands a timeline for his adventures because everyone understands the basic principles of the character and the only thing that matters now is what is happening now.

Stuff like that should go for Star Trek/Wars, comics and probably any open ended franchise with multiple authors that has existed for 20 years or more. Because to do otherwise when things get to that point would be an extraordinary mess.


I'd be more inclined to point towards mythological or literary entities for iconic characters. There isn't any one definitive King Arthur narrative, and the canon is there in a literary sense and not a fandom one. The character is still reasonably well defined though, and works fairly well as an icon. The same thing applies to Sherlock Holmes in a lesser degree, where there is a sort of fan canon in Doyle's works, but the character is both public domain and a cultural icon at this point. Some of the earlier superheroes are getting to be the same way - though I'd argue that most of the time it's less a matter of characters becoming culturally iconic and more a matter of Marvel and DC being lazy and needing to stop using the same characters for decades on end.

[Kitten Champion]

I'd be more inclined to point towards mythological or literary entities for iconic characters. There isn't any one definitive King Arthur narrative, and the canon is there in a literary sense and not a fandom one. The character is still reasonably well defined though, and works fairly well as an icon. The same thing applies to Sherlock Holmes in a lesser degree, where there is a sort of fan canon in Doyle's works, but the character is both public domain and a cultural icon at this point. Some of the earlier superheroes are getting to be the same way - though I'd argue that most of the time it's less a matter of characters becoming culturally iconic and more a matter of Marvel and DC being lazy and needing to stop using the same characters for decades on end.

It's not laziness, it's capitalism.

[GloatingSwine]

The Transformers and GI Joe books are Canon, they are just in a separate continuity from the Transformers or Gi Joe books.

Transformers canon* is a hideous and many-tentacled monstrosity the darker depths of which are not fit for the mind of man.

*Of which there are several

It is, however, arguable that G1 Transformers actually is Marvel Earth-616. (The connection is Death's Head, who has made recent appearances in both Marvel comics and IDW's G1 Transformers comics, showing that he's still part of both)

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'd be more inclined to point towards mythological or literary entities for iconic characters.

The difference between an ancient icon and a more modern icon is only that the copyright has expired. The way that culture treats a popular character is what makes that character an icon, not the age of the work.

Older characters just tend to be more commonly used as icons than newer characters for the reason that they've had more time to become known. As time passes, more people watch Star Wars or play a Mario game. Which makes the character more universal in the broader culture over time.

Also, most characters don't get extremely well known in all of culture, but they still can get well known in subcultures and serve as icons for that subculture.

I used Mario as an example because he's both very new and very recognized. But other iconic characters exist that are still in copyright. Indiana Jones and Captain Kirk to name a couple.

In the modern age, it seems that the most popular icons lately are ones people hate.

Allow me to reference only two characters I know despite having never seen the source material for either one:

"Meesa see sparkling fanged human!"

When people write silly fanservicey dialog about two characters randomly blathering about nerd trivia (or do whatever Family Guy and Robot Chicken does with their writing) that's using icons that supposedly its target audience will recognize and laugh at.
Also, there's nothing wrong with using iconic characters in new fiction. What you lament is probably merely an aversion to risk.

[Knaight]

Also, there's nothing wrong with using iconic characters in new fiction. What you lament is probably merely an aversion to risk.

I don't have an issue with the use of iconic characters. A lot of the characters aren't iconic though - they're just old, and decades of continuous production have failed to make them iconic. Even with iconic characters though, I'd argue that endless serials are a problem. The actual newness of the fiction is up for debate a lot of the time, it's more a matter of continuing older fiction long past when the narrative should have ended.

[BeerMug Paladin]

The only superhero characters that are iconic within culture at large are probably Batman and Superman. Not that others haven't had their influence, but only those two (as far as I'm aware) has had an impact on the wider culture outside of the niche audience those characters generally inhabit. But within comics culture, far more characters have an iconic status.

I would think in terms of a character being iconic, that's actually a status that hurts a writer's ability to use the character. Not because of anything on the writing end or that excellent stories can't be told using them. But because there's a higher chance that anything done too differently with that character is more likely to be rejected by the audience.

Anyway, this is pretty far off topic, so I won't babble on about this any more.

[MLai]

Anyway, this is pretty far off topic, so I won't babble on about this any more.
Actually this is exactly on topic.

The entire reason the OP wrote is because he felt that the superheroes on TV are more engaging than the same superheroes in the comics. If you think about why that is, you realize it's not because all TV writers are magically better than all comics writers. A large part is because comics writers are weighed down and shackled by The Continuity that IMO is more trouble than it's worth.

When I started watching Young Justice, I didn't care what those characters canonically did in the canon. I didn't care Superboy is already dead, or it wasn't the red-n'-blue Superboy from decades ago. I didn't care whether or not he and Martian Girl are an item in the comics. I just watched the cartoon because hey, it's a fresh beginning with no required prior investment from me, and this Brando-esque bad boy is pretty cool.

I. Don't. Care. About the stuff happening outside of the YJ storyline. It's a self-contained storyline. It starts. It should finish. And that's it. If Marvel wants to use Superboy again a year later and pretend YJ never happened, then fine. That's how I think comics should be done.

[Androgeus]

Canon is important.

Otherwise people start insisting that Transformers and Sonic the Hedgehog are part of all the stories.

And we really don't want that.

Doctor who doesn't have a canon and it seems to do fine.

[Eldan]

The only superhero characters that are iconic within culture at large are probably Batman and Superman. Not that others haven't had their influence, but only those two (as far as I'm aware) has had an impact on the wider culture outside of the niche audience those characters generally inhabit. But within comics culture, far more characters have an iconic status.

I'd say Spiderman, too. That's the only three I knew anything about before the Marvel movies came out and I'd say it's the same for my parents or most people in my or their generation over here.

PS: I thought the official explanation of Doctor Who canon was "there is one, but it changes every time someone time-travels".

[Raistlin1040]

Actually this is exactly on topic.

The entire reason the OP wrote is because he felt that the superheroes on TV are more engaging than the same superheroes in the comics. If you think about why that is, you realize it's not because all TV writers are magically better than all comics writers. A large part is because comics writers are weighed down and shackled by The Continuity that IMO is more trouble than it's worth.

When I started watching Young Justice, I didn't care what those characters canonically did in the canon. I didn't care Superboy is already dead, or it wasn't the red-n'-blue Superboy from decades ago. I didn't care whether or not he and Martian Girl are an item in the comics. I just watched the cartoon because hey, it's a fresh beginning with no required prior investment from me, and this Brando-esque bad boy is pretty cool.

I. Don't. Care. About the stuff happening outside of the YJ storyline. It's a self-contained storyline. It starts. It should finish. And that's it. If Marvel wants to use Superboy again a year later and pretend YJ never happened, then fine. That's how I think comics should be done.Young Justice is DC.

Comics can have the same self-contained nature. Sure, there are on-going narratives, but trade paperbacks are designed to have self-contained stories, especially when they're not just "Batman Volume 2", but rather "Batman: Hush" or "The Death of Superman" or "Marvel Civil War". You might get something else out of it if you're a devoted fan of the comics who has read everything every written, but it's not necessary. By the same token, you get more out of YJ or Teen Titans or whatever if you know the comics, but it's hardly a requirement.

Reading monthly comics is one thing, and certainly not for everyone, but the criticism of the continuity doesn't apply to a lot of comic stories, which can be envisioned as self-contained. If you don't CARE about what's going on now in comics, you can go read A Death In The Family as a story that exists in its own bubble, or you can read a lot of the stuff that came after it (probably culminating in Under the Red Hood) to see how it affected the characters involved.

[Raimun]

Doctor who doesn't have a canon and it seems to do fine.

Doctor Who is just silly. It does not count.

Canon is important. Otherwise stories lose structure and ultimately they lose meaning. If you think otherwise, you think Gone with the Wind and The Shining would be improved with prequels and/or sequels.

[MLai]

Canon is important. Otherwise stories lose structure and ultimately they lose meaning. If you think otherwise, you think Gone with the Wind and The Shining would be improved with prequels and/or sequels.
Actually it's the readers who think comics canon is important. They're the ones who would like Gone With The Wind and The Shining to have prequels and sequels.

[Lurkmoar]

Actually it's the readers who think comics canon is important. They're the ones who would like Gone With The Wind and The Shining to have prequels and sequels.

The Shining does have a sequel. Doctor Sleep. Unless you're talking about the movie the Shining...

[Eldan]

Actually it's the readers who think comics canon is important. They're the ones who would like Gone With The Wind and The Shining to have prequels and sequels.

If I sat down and wrote a sequel to Gone with the Wind, in which Butler turns out to be an alien and O'Hara is a time-travelling detective trying to hunt him down and they both end up defecting to the North to fight slavery with laser guns, that would be a very stupid story that makes little sense with the characters. So people would say "this is not canon" to indicate that it really doesn't work with the original. That's all "canon" means.

[Cheesegear]

The entire reason the OP wrote is because he felt that the superheroes on TV are more engaging than the same superheroes in the comics.

If you read the OP, the OP also states why he thinks TV is more engaging - because DARK and EDGY doesn't appeal to him. Continuity doesn't have anything to do with it - except only tangentially where different characters can pick up the mantle of a hero - and if you do care about continuity, just buy a Trade which is a self-contained story about whatever character you do find engaging.
'Continuity is scary' is something a lot of non-comic readers bring up for why they don't read comics. Except there's a lot of cases where everything you need to know about anything is printed on the inside cover or opening few pages. Especially in Trades. Basically, it's a non-argument. If you want to read a comic story, then just read it.

The second thing - probably off-topic - is that TV and Movies will generally always be more engaging than books - comics included, sort of. In broad strokes, reading is hard. Not just literacy, but the act of reading is what's difficult. I read a study that says the average person can't read more than 40 pages or 45-50 minutes without losing comprehension. Essentially, the conclusion is that it's a lot easier - for the average person - to absorb information from a 90 minute movie than it is to absorb information from 90 minutes of reading. I don't know how this study would apply to comic books, since comics and graphic novels come with pictures, and a lot of information is presented visually (like a movie), but, the point is, TV/Movies are more engaging than books anyway, because that's how human brains kind of work. Another example is a lot of news outlets are presenting information as videos, rather than text on a page. But by this point I'm plenty off-topic.

[MLai]

If you read the OP, the OP also states why he thinks TV is more engaging - because DARK and EDGY doesn't appeal to him.
If you read my post, it's clear that I was using the OP as the jumping-off point on why ***I*** think TV is more engaging, rather than discussing the reason the OP thinks TV is more engaging. Nor was I putting words in the OP's mouth; I never said that my reason is his reason.

You're free to state your opinions on comics continuity, but don't try to word your post to imply that I wrote something misleading.

[Cheesegear]

You're free to state your opinions on comics continuity, but don't try to word your post to imply that I wrote something misleading.

Fine. I'll post the whole paragraph.


The entire reason the OP wrote is because he felt that the superheroes on TV are more engaging than the same superheroes in the comics. If you think about why that is, you realize it's not because all TV writers are magically better than all comics writers. A large part is because comics writers are weighed down and shackled by The Continuity that IMO is more trouble than it's worth.

Is all one paragraph Where one sentence leads into the next. OP thinks TV is more engaging than TV, if I think about why that is, a large portion of that is writers being shackled by continuity. You are putting words in the OP's mouth. You may not have intended to, but that's not how your post reads.

[Man on Fire]

The entire reason the OP wrote is because he felt that the superheroes on TV are more engaging than the same superheroes in the comics. If you think about why that is, you realize it's not because all TV writers are magically better than all comics writers. A large part is because comics writers are weighed down and shackled by The Continuity that IMO is more trouble than it's worth.

And yet good writers can do great things with existing continuity, while still having their own self-contained stories. Continuity is only weighting you down if you let it. You can use it as a tool for your advantage.


When I started watching Young Justice, I didn't care what those characters canonically did in the canon. I didn't care Superboy is already dead, or it wasn't the red-n'-blue Superboy from decades ago. I didn't care whether or not he and Martian Girl are an item in the comics. I just watched the cartoon because hey, it's a fresh beginning with no required prior investment from me, and this Brando-esque bad boy is pretty cool.

But carton is it's own universe, nobody ever claimed it to be part of any canon whatsoever except it's own. But tell me, how would you feel if in YJ cartoon suddenly episodes stopped having consequences? Like - Megan mindwhipes Aqualad? Doesn't matter, next episode it never happened. This is what disregarding canon is.


I. Don't. Care. About the stuff happening outside of the YJ storyline. It's a self-contained storyline. It starts. It should finish. And that's it. If Marvel wants to use Superboy again a year later and pretend YJ never happened, then fine. That's how I think comics should be done.

You are missing one part of it.
Comics aren't only about punching people. Many people, me included, reads them for character development and ongoing drama of the character's lives. If you start disregarding the canon, this aspect becomes meaningless. You cannot have character growth, developing relationship, ongoing friendship or rivarly or resolved personal subplots, because next writer can just come out and disregard everything and suddenly two characters whose friendship you enjoyed hate each other. When you stip superhero comics from the continuity you take the drama away and they turn into the likes of Donald Duck comics, where characters' personalities can change from one story to another. And when I want that, I just read Donald Duck comics. I don't think all comics should be Donald just as I don't think they all should be Batman.


Doctor who doesn't have a canon and it seems to do fine.

It has canon. Old TV show, Movie, New TV Show. Expanded Universe is canon as well, but on different level - that means tv shows takes priority and if it would contradict something, then that thing stops being canon.

[Kitten Champion]

I think citing continuity or canon as a distinction between the mediums is a false dichotomy. A lot of comics are like television shows, the only continuity relevant is the subsequent or proceeding comic in that same series. In fact that's part of Marvel's marketing strategy, repackaging their comics to be something like TV seasons you'd get over Netflix. It's not like television as a medium can be any less confusing, try watching a heavily serialized show in its later seasons and chances are you'd have the same experience.

If you're arguing comics are darker than television shows, I would point to Arrow where tragic melodrama is a staple of that series. While The Flash is clearly going more the Donner route as far as tone goes -- they've still got similar sensibilities. I really don't think the actual quality or nature of the writing is much different between them, there are medium-related differences certainly, but as a story telling medium comics are more like TV and vice versa than most other media.

The only argument I see is the one my mother gave me when I handed her Fraction's run on Hawkeye. Namely, while she loved the Marvel movies, even the ones I'm more tepid on, she just doesn't buy into the illusion of action the medium attempts to create via dynamic art. Whereas she loved Sandman as a Gaiman novel series with pictures attached, the more cinematic approach of a post 00's superhero comic was just something she couldn't get into. Of course, such a distinction would require you to actually read the comics and not the wiki summation.

[MLai]

Is all one paragraph Where one sentence leads into the next. OP thinks TV is more engaging than TV, if I think about why that is, a large portion of that is writers being shackled by continuity. You are putting words in the OP's mouth. You may not have intended to, but that's not how your post reads.
The only part of my paragraph which I attributed to the OP is "the OP thinks TV superheroes is more engaging than comics superheroes." Then I lead off to "Let's think about that for a minute on why that may be" (paraphrase). And then I wrote my reasons, and never implied the OP.
Feel free to disagree and talk about it, but try not to emulate some other posters in sniping at ppl every chance they get.

P.S. I'm willing to accept that you didn't mean it that way because I don't recall you endorsing such irritating practices in the past.


And yet good writers can do great things with existing continuity, while still having their own self-contained stories. Continuity is only weighting you down if you let it. You can use it as a tool for your advantage.
Trouble comes when that Continuity is decades old and spans dozens of writers. At that point it's more cons than pros to try to work with it.
Cartoons don't have that problem, even if they're sequel series, because at most a TV franchise is only working with several years' continuity (we're not talking about soaps, btw, just shows like Babylon 5 for example).
Referencing Warner Bros or Disney cartoon shorts is an extreme in non-continuity. I'm saying shows with an over-arching plot is cool, but comics Continuity goes to the other extreme of the spectrum.


The only argument I see is the one my mother gave me when I handed her Fraction's run on Hawkeye. Namely, while she loved the Marvel movies, even the ones I'm more tepid on, she just doesn't buy into the illusion of action the medium attempts to create via dynamic art. Whereas she loved Sandman as a Gaiman novel series with pictures attached, the more cinematic approach of a post 00's superhero comic was just something she couldn't get into. Of course, such a distinction would require you to actually read the comics and not the wiki summation.
Ugh, as a comics artist I just can't relate to ppl like that, my own parents included. Pictures as a dynamic storytelling medium for humanity is as old as the Lascaux cave paintings; it's older than dirt and doesn't need their approval for its legitimacy. "Action pictures" doesn't just exist in comics; open any Sports pages and you'll see the same thing.

It's not an argument, it's that some ppl are just art-deaf! Long-buried parental angst bubbling back up...

[Pex]

In all honesty, I care more about consistency then canon.

That is, I expect various adaptions of a work to deviate from a canon work, I just hope that the deviations are consistent with themselves, ie I'd be annoyed if flying zombies showed up in the Walking Dead tv show.

Z-Nation did have Zombienado Zombies, Drug High Zombies, Aroused Zombies (talked about, not seen), Nuclear Zombies, and Mutant Zombies. Many of it for humor value but works. The show takes itself seriously yet it lets the audience in on the joke. It purposely breaks zombie apocalypse tropes, which I like. The Hero dies. There's a cure. They're called zombies.

[Lurkmoar]

Z-Nation did have Zombienado Zombies, Drug High Zombies, Aroused Zombies (talked about, not seen), Nuclear Zombies, and Mutant Zombies. Many of it for humor value but works. The show takes itself seriously yet it lets the audience in on the joke. It purposely breaks zombie apocalypse tropes, which I like. The Hero dies. There's a cure. They're called zombies.

As long as the zombies don't fly because they flap their wings. That could be good as a 15 second joke, but to stretch it further...

[Man on Fire]

Trouble comes when that Continuity is decades old and spans dozens of writers. At that point it's more cons than pros to try to work with it.
Cartoons don't have that problem, even if they're sequel series, because at most a TV franchise is only working with several years' continuity (we're not talking about soaps, btw, just shows like Babylon 5 for example).
Referencing Warner Bros or Disney cartoon shorts is an extreme in non-continuity. I'm saying shows with an over-arching plot is cool, but comics Continuity goes to the other extreme of the spectrum.


And yet most of the most hated comics of many years can be traced to writers who don't do their homework on continuity. For example, Avengers Disassembled by Brian Bendis.

[Lurkmoar]

Oh, and to chip in to the adaptation decay that this thread is about, anyone hear about the 2015 Fantastic Four reboot? The changes I've read about I'm not too thrilled about, especially the Doctor Doom bits.

Of course, Fantastic Four is getting cancelled as a comic book series in a little bit. Good grief.

[MLai]

Oh, and to chip in to the adaptation decay that this thread is about, anyone hear about the 2015 Fantastic Four reboot? The changes I've read about I'm not too thrilled about, especially the Doctor Doom bits.
What bits did you hear, besides Johnny Storm gonna be black?
Personally I don't really care that Johnny gonna be black; Susan Storm had already set a movie precedent.

[Kitten Champion]

What bits did you hear, besides Johnny Storm gonna be black?
Personally I don't really care that Johnny gonna be black; Susan Storm had already set a movie precedent.

Doom's going to be a Drudge Report-esque blogger rather than the monarch of a fictitious kingdom, which I don't really have an opinion on though in a vacuum it sounds pretty stupid. Having Johnny's character be played by a black actor doesn't really change anything of substance with the character or more importantly his characterization, aside from the rather insignificant matter of having a slightly different familial relationship with his sister.

I'm intrigued by the Fantastic Four movie, though not exactly excited.

I've always considered F4 fairly uninteresting. They're one of those original creative concepts which was groundbreaking for their time that got overshadowed by later titles which would refine that basic formula into something deeper. Although it is difficult not to like the Thing.

Point is, for me at least, I'd be happy with an out-of-the-box interpretation of the characters and their setting rather than Superhero Film #44. The man who made Chronicle I think can provide that, though even if he does it doesn't necessarily make it a movie I'd like -- for much the same reason I don't care for Ang Lee's Hulk.

[Southern Cross]

Actually, I like the Ang Lee Hulk.
However, the Hulk movie had some serious problems.

[Man on Fire]

What bits did you hear, besides Johnny Storm gonna be black?
Personally I don't really care that Johnny gonna be black; Susan Storm had already set a movie precedent.

Dcotor Doom is now a blogger called Domashev, who hates Johnny and Sue's father because "evil business", Sue is now adopted party girl who hates science and SHE is the one to angst how superpowers turned her into a freak, not Ben, because Ben can turn into Thing and back at will now. Also, Reed is just random computer clerk who happened to solve some equations dr. Storm had a problem with.

[Coidzor]

The only thing I don't like is the nerd shaming and "Fake Geek Girl" bull**** that ourrounds comics culture, especially if one was introduced to the genre by 90s cartoons because one wasn't born into a family where one's father had planned out indoctrinating his future children with his comics collection. And worse for people even younger than that.

But that's less to do with the comics and more to do with the culture surrounding them, and a lot of the barriers to research have been lowered, since now rather than having to spend enough money to buy a car in tracking down out of print and/or rare comic books as "required reading," one can use the internet. Or even pay a subscription fee to access digital versions of the comics, at least for Marvel's body of work.

[MLai]

Dcotor Doom is now a blogger called Domashev, who hates Johnny and Sue's father because "evil business", Sue is now adopted party girl who hates science and SHE is the one to angst how superpowers turned her into a freak, not Ben, because Ben can turn into Thing and back at will now. Also, Reed is just random computer clerk who happened to solve some equations dr. Storm had a problem with.
Welp, guess what movie I ain't watching.

I can resist Bay's turtles and dinobots, I can certain resist this BS.

[Man on Fire]

I've always considered F4 fairly uninteresting. They're one of those original creative concepts which was groundbreaking for their time that got overshadowed by later titles which would refine that basic formula into something deeper.

Generally among FF fans is accepted that good ff run requires writer who gets the heart of the group and can translate it to new audience (Mark Waid)...or does something very different but damn good (Jonathan Hickman). FF are this kind of team that is quite hard to get I feel. And it doesn't help it's been proven time and time again that these four work best together - can anyone name an attempt at moving one of them to other team that actually worked? Or at replacing any of them with somebody else?

[Raistlin1040]

Generally among FF fans is accepted that good ff run requires writer who gets the heart of the group and can translate it to new audience (Mark Waid)...or does something very different but damn good (Jonathan Hickman). FF are this kind of team that is quite hard to get I feel. And it doesn't help it's been proven time and time again that these four work best together - can anyone name an attempt at moving one of them to other team that actually worked? Or at replacing any of them with somebody else?Storm and Black Panther replacing Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman was good. She-Hulk filling in for the Thing was also goo.

[Devonix]

Storm and Black Panther replacing Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman was good. She-Hulk filling in for the Thing was also goo.

Yeah they've had lots of guest members stick around. The family dynamic works when you treat the new members as extended family.

Storm and Black Panther being on the team when Reed and Sue were on a second honeymoon was wonderful. They were like babysitters brought on over.