Poisons & Mithridatism

[Kerilstrasz]

First of all let me explain what mithridatism is, for those that don't know.

Mithridatism, in short, is an old practice, that an individual would expose himself to minor non lethal doses of a harmful substance, gradually increasing the dose's potency,
until he develops an immunity to the specific substance. It was/is a very dangerous practice if you have no knowledge/experience of it, it takes very long time 3+++ years
(depending on the person's metabolism and immune system) but if you know how & what to do it's legit.

Now..

i know that there is no ruling.. it is up to the Dm.. just want your opinions..

if you had a player, that wish to do the above, how would you handle it (assuming you have no reason to deny his request) ???

Thank you for your time :smallwink:

[pwykersotz]

Absolutely. How else would one build up an immunity to iocane powder?

Also, that sounds pretty great for story purposes.

Edit
Oh, you wanted how. Probably have them pay for and use a quarter dose each week, make a save each month with advantage? I feel the poisoned condition might work here, but I can't think how at the moment.

[Kyutaru]

This might work on normal poisons only. However, if the plant or source is magical, it's a magical poison. Something akin to getting infected by a ringwraith's poisoned blade might start out as just a "small dose", but there's no getting over that. It gets worse on its own.

Some poisons just can't be broken down by your body's defense system and must be ejected through other means. Those ones I'd say are impossible to gain immunity to (through normal means).

[Kerilstrasz]

Some poisons just can't be broken down by your body's defense system and must be ejected through other means.

You don't have to overcome it by the means of your immune system alone. Snake handlers in australia, for example, are know to been bitten by venomous snakes, get the treatment, and get bitten again, and treated.. (keep repeating).. until some day they developed an immunity..

so, even in cases of "harmful substances" that an immune system cant fight alone, mythidatism is still working. You get exposure, you get treated, at some point you system learns to fight it.

[JAL_1138]

You don't have to overcome it by the means of your immune system alone. Snake handlers in australia, for example, are know to been bitten by venomous snakes, get the treatment, and get bitten again, and treated.. (keep repeating).. until some day they developed an immunity..

so, even in cases of "harmful substances" that an immune system cant fight alone, mythidatism is still working. You get exposure, you get treated, at some point you system learns to fight it.

Or you might run the risk of developing a horrifyingly lethal allergy instead of the more common immunity, as with beestings...

[SliceandDiceKid]

Or you might run the risk of developing a horrifyingly lethal allergy instead of the more common immunity, as with beestings...

Yupp. Introducing your body to a new substance doesn't mean you develop an immunity. I'd say there was a chance they'd develop an immunity, but require exceptionally high consecutive DCs to get it. Like 90% failure chance at BEST.

Dabble with poison...

[Vogonjeltz]

Yupp. Introducing your body to a new substance doesn't mean you develop an immunity. I'd say there was a chance they'd develop an immunity, but require exceptionally high consecutive DCs to get it. Like 90% failure chance at BEST.

Dabble with poison...

The question is more of:

Do we want this to be fun, like the Princess Bride? Or do we want to try and model reality (which may be less fun)?

[SliceandDiceKid]

The question is more of:

Do we want this to be fun, like the Princess Bride? Or do we want to try and model reality (which may be less fun)?

I guess I'm just not a fan of players making exceptionally poor choices for the expressed purpose of possibly gaining a significant new ability. Without any reason for it to not go south.

This sounds too much like homeopathy anyway. Especially if you're talking about a poison.

[JAL_1138]

I guess I'm just not a fan of players making exceptionally poor choices for the expressed purpose of possibly gaining a significant new ability. Without any reason for it to not go south.

This sounds too much like homeopathy anyway. Especially if you're talking about a poison.

It does work; for example more beekeepers develop immunity to stings than develop allergies. Heck, I built up an immunity to poison ivy from summer jobs clearing fields. Used to break out if I looked at it funny, but after a few years I could wade into the stuff with a commercial-grade weedwhacker 'till I was coated in green from the clippings and never have an itch. Also like OP said it's been confirmed with venomous snakes in Brazil and Australia. So it can sort of work, but it's extremely dangerous. Dose too high, dead. Allergic reaction (anaphylaxis), dead. Dose too small, probably no effect.

[Forrestfire]

I think that I'd allow it, and then give them Advantage (or some other bonus) on saves against that poison. It seems like the sort of situation Advantage is perfect for (fiating a bonus if they're in a situation where they should succeed), and it's an in-character effort over time to do something neat. No need to punish that.

[mephnick]

If he's willing to do this over a long career, I'd probably just charge the cost of the poisons and do the rest through role-play. Making him do checks every day would be tedious for everyone else.

What is the player expecting of this? To become immune to poisons after 50 sessions? 5 sessions?

You can't really just be like "It's been 3 years and now you're immune to poisons. Grats."

[GiantOctopodes]

Or you might run the risk of developing a horrifyingly lethal allergy instead of the more common immunity, as with beestings...

It should be noted that the way they treat allergies (allergy shots) is to do exactly what is being described- inject small amounts of the material in question, gradually upping the amount, to get the system used to it. I was once allergic to a great many things. Now not so much, a decade of allergy shots and I'm good, I don't even need them anymore.

My uncle was once deathly allergic to peanuts. 30 years of allergy shots later, he can eat whatever he wants.

The methodology is sound, and is used across the USA for the treatment of exactly that problem. It's not a pleasant experience, but hey, whatever works, right?

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/guide/allergy-shots

Edit: It should be noted that immunity or tolerance to one poison or venom does not in any way constitute immunity or tolerance to another. Taking doses of a poison for years would constitute immunity to that exact poison, and no others.

[JAL_1138]

It should be noted that the way they treat allergies (allergy shots) is to do exactly what is being described- inject small amounts of the material in question, gradually upping the amount, to get the system used to it. I was once allergic to a great many things. Now not so much, a decade of allergy shots and I'm good, I don't even need them anymore.

My uncle was once deathly allergic to peanuts. 30 years of allergy shots later, he can eat whatever he wants.

The methodology is sound, and is used across the USA for the treatment of exactly that problem. It's not a pleasant experience, but hey, whatever works, right?

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/guide/allergy-shots

Edit: It should be noted that immunity or tolerance to one poison or venom does not in any way constitute immunity or tolerance to another. Taking doses of a poison for years would constitute immunity to that exact poison, and no others.


I was just thinking of beekeepers who start out being ok after a sting but eventually have to carry epi-pens to work because they've developed the allergy. You're 100% right on how they treat that, of course.

And you're also right on the edit--it's not three years or whatever in-character to be immune to poisons, plural, just the particular one. Iocaine powder, CMOT Dibbler's sausages-inna-bun, honeybees--being immune to one of those does nothing vs wasps, hornets, scorpions, rattlesnakes, cyanide, etc.

[Sartharina]

Of course, some poisons (Particularly metallic ones) cannot be immunized in this way - it just builds up to lethal amounts.

[Knaight]

This sounds too much like homeopathy anyway. Especially if you're talking about a poison.

It's lacking some very fundamental traits of homeopathy. The dosage is gradually increased, rather than getting more and more diluted, because it's based on legitimate knowledge of how dosage works. Plus, actually having the poison in question is an important part of the technique, rather than having water that was once near water that was once near water that was once near water ... that was once near water which had some poison in it.

[pwykersotz]

So, a few ways offhand that this might work.

1) Pay for 10 doses of the poison. Voluntarily accept the 'poisoned' condition for 10 sessions of your choice, chosen beforehand. You may cure the poison with a spell or antitoxin if you need, but in invalidates the immunity buildup that session. After 10 sessions of running this way, you gain immunity to that particular poison.

2) Just use the downtime training rules. 250 days and 250gp gives you immunity to a single poison.

3) Require that the character be brought to 0hp by the poison. On resuscitation, roll a Con save vs DC 18. Success means you gain immunity. Failure means nothing. Failure by 5 or more means you gain vulnerability to the poison. You might not want to allow retries for the same poison on this one, or only allow retries if nothing happens.