Excerpt: Downtime activities

[Stray]

Here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt-downtime-activities) it is. Little bit on the minimalist side of things, but honestly I did not expect more. I particularly like the little detail of player deciding how they offended their new enemy in carousing table, although I find it little weird that most likely result of going on a bender is gambling winnings. Strange and fantastic world indeed, even house doesn't always win :smallwink:.
Oh, and there are first two paragraphs of a section about crafting magic items, I wouldn't hold out hope for a robust and detailed minisystem for it.

[Totema]

Anyone else have an issue that a fort costs as much as 10 suits of plate armor? :smallconfused:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Anyone else have an issue that a fort costs as much as 10 suits of plate armor? :smallconfused:

I have an issue with most things GP related in D&D.

[MaxWilson]

Anyone else have an issue that a fort costs as much as 10 suits of plate armor? :smallconfused:

I'm confused whether you think that price is high or low. Either could be plausible.

[Totema]

I'm confused whether you think that price is high or low. Either could be plausible.

Actually, I suppose this is true. When I first read this I assumed it meant a well-furnished military outpost, but really a fort could be a little as a box of walls enclosing a barracks.

[Freelance GM]

Actually, I suppose this is true. When I first read this I assumed it meant a well-furnished military outpost, but really a fort could be a little as a box of walls enclosing a barracks.

Eh, it could very well be a well-furnished military outpost- with a palisade of sharpened sticks and buildings made of wood.

Compare the build time to some of the other options- just about anything else you could guarantee to be made of mostly stone (the small castle, the temple, or the abbey) takes at least 400 days. The structures that take less time are either smaller (like a fortified tower) or more likely to be made of cheaper materials (like a Trading Post).

[Sartharina]

Oh, ****ing hell. Magic Item crafting is strictly the purview of spellcasters again. And ritual magic doesn't cut it.

[Eslin]

Oh good, magical items are spellcaster only. That's fun!

Seriously, was having an amazing smith make a magic sword or a suit of armour gain magical properties from being used in amazing deeds so game breaking?

[Gnomes2169]

Get feat to get cantrips. Craft all day, every day. ??? Profit?

[TheOldCrow]

Get feat to get cantrips. Craft all day, every day. ??? Profit?

Does having cantrips count as "having spell slots"? I don't think cantrips take or provide slots.

Those creation rules truly sucks. I thought it would be about using a formula, not chucking spells, to create magic items. Why can't the best fighter in the land forge a sword from a meteorite dipped in dragon's blood and make their own magic weapon?

[Slipperychicken]

Anyone else have an issue that a fort costs as much as 10 suits of plate armor? :smallconfused:

Since keeps and castles are separate things, I imagine the "fort" represents a much less impressive construction, such as a wooden motte-and-bailey.

http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/pics/motte_05.jpg
http://www.castlewales.com/motte1.jpg

[Gnomes2169]

Does having cantrips count as "having spell slots"? I don't think cantrips take or provide slots.

Those creation rules truly sucks. I thought it would be about using a formula, not chucking spells, to create magic items. Why can't the best fighter in the land forge a sword from a meteorite dipped in dragon's blood and make their own magic weapon?

I was referring to Magic initiate (or whatever the name is) that gives you two cantrips and one level 1 spell slot... Which does count for qualifications.

As for that, there may be rules for "mundane" magical crafting. Or you may just have to make the recipie yourself. Either way, it shouldn't be too hard to do in-system without requiring a particular class/ subclass/ feat.

[Shadow]

I was referring to Magic initiate (or whatever the name is) that gives you two cantrips and one level 1 spell slot... Which does count for qualifications.

It doesn't give you a slot. It gives you that spell once per day more like a spell-like ability from earlier editions.
Not the same thing. You can't use that "slot" to cast anything else, so it isn't a slot at all.

[Gnomes2169]

It doesn't give you a slot. It gives you that spell once per day more like a spell-like ability from earlier editions.
Not the same thing. You can't use that "slot" to cast anything else, so it isn't a slot at all.

Ah, then that's disappointing. Nevermind then. Pick up a level of paladin, eldrich knight, arcane trixter or ranger if you want to craft but also be stabby stabby, then. Or wait for the full DMG so that we can see the full item crafting section. Or disregard the crafting section and substitute your own.

[Easy_Lee]

So, if I'm reading these rules right, it means that a player who wants to build a fort ought to be a wizard with access to fabricate, who spends his time fabricating wands of fabricate to be used for fabricating fortresses via fabricate.

[Gnomes2169]

So, if I'm reading these rules right, it means that a player who wants to build a fort ought to be a wizard with access to fabricate, who spends his time fabricating wands of fabricate to be used for fabricating fortresses via fabricate.

Welcome to the redundancy department of redundancy. The first rule of the department is the first rule.

[Totema]

So, if I'm reading these rules right, it means that a player who wants to build a fort ought to be a wizard with access to fabricate, who spends his time fabricating wands of fabricate to be used for fabricating fortresses via fabricate.

No, that's an outright fabrication.

[theduck]

A kind of simple head-canon to get around the caster limitation is to focus on the specification of character. It is possible that a master blacksmith could create magic weapon, but the rules don't cover how a player character would get to that point. Maybe it requires something like 10 levels in blacksmith which is just a class we don't have, due to it having nothing to do with adventuring. As such the only player character that kind of cheese magic items are the characters that already intimately knowledgeable of magic.

[JoeJ]

Does having cantrips count as "having spell slots"? I don't think cantrips take or provide slots.

Those creation rules truly sucks. I thought it would be about using a formula, not chucking spells, to create magic items. Why can't the best fighter in the land forge a sword from a meteorite dipped in dragon's blood and make their own magic weapon?

Fighters can have spell slots.

edit: Hey, cool! I've turned into an orc! That's one step closer to tarrasque.

[Sartharina]

Or disregard the crafting section and substitute your own.if 3e's any indication... not gonna happen

[Scirocco]

Ah, then that's disappointing. Nevermind then. Pick up a level of paladin, eldrich knight, arcane trixter or ranger if you want to craft but also be stabby stabby, then. Or wait for the full DMG so that we can see the full item crafting section. Or disregard the crafting section and substitute your own.

Better yet just ban item crafting thus removing economic PVP and player access to whatever items they want from the game.

[Gnomes2169]

if 3e's any indication... not gonna happen
And if 2e is any indication... Well, magic items just won't be crafted by anyone, because daaaaaaaaang that's expensive. And if the DMG exerpt for expected magic items per character is any indication, crafting will probably be pretty dang hard for any rare+ power items (even in a high fantasy setting)


Better yet just ban item crafting thus removing economic PVP and player access to whatever items they want from the game.
Still can't forge artifacts, though, so something will be kept out of the player's grubby mits unless the DM lets them have it. Also, I like giving my players nice things. They are nice. :smalltongue:

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh good, magical items are spellcaster only. That's fun!

Seriously, was having an amazing smith make a magic sword or a suit of armour gain magical properties from being used in amazing deeds so game breaking?

Technically that's a variant, by default magic users can't make them either.

[Selkirk]

12000 gp for a fort :smalleek:... . i'll be level 13 before i can afford one :D. but i wish they had (and in fairness they might go into more detail) put in simpler homes/farms. like a city apartment/abode or starting a business like a farm or a fishing company for downtime.

crafting rules are more flavor for me than anything else. a master blacksmith is a master blacksmith for a reason-it's all they do. my characters run around and slay goblins and might know something of smithing...but certainly not expert craftsman level.

on a side note-given the price of platemail relative to housing is anyone else thinking of robbing the local armorer?

[VeliciaL]

12000 gp for a fort :smalleek:... . i'll be level 13 before i can afford one :D. but i wish they had (and in fairness they might go into more detail) put in simpler homes/farms. like a city apartment/abode or starting a business like a farm or a fishing company for downtime.

I'm pretty sure they intended the fort to be something the whole party chipped in for. :smallbiggrin:

[One Tin Soldier]

12000 gp for a fort :smalleek:... . i'll be level 13 before i can afford one :D. but i wish they had (and in fairness they might go into more detail) put in simpler homes/farms. like a city apartment/abode or starting a business like a farm or a fishing company for downtime.

crafting rules are more flavor for me than anything else. a master blacksmith is a master blacksmith for a reason-it's all they do. my characters run around and slay goblins and might know something of smithing...but certainly not expert craftsman level.

on a side note-given the price of platemail relative to housing is anyone else thinking of robbing the local armorer?

I got a look at the full DMG (though I don't have it on me right now), and there are a list of prices for how much buildings and the like cost. I believe a decent house was something like 100g, and I know that building a whole village costs about 5,000g.

[Selkirk]

I'm pretty sure they intended the fort to be something the whole party chipped in for. :smallbiggrin:
:D..yeah that's probably true. i was just thinking how my character thinks 'it's mine... all mine :D'.

@onetinsoldier
yeah that's makes more sense. some pretty good campaign fodder could be had depending on where the character was based (thieves quarters :D).

[Sartharina]

Well, if you're smart, you can loot a dragon hoard at level 3, and have a substantial amount of wealth (Which is largely decoupled from level this time around)

[Beleriphon]

12000 gp for a fort :smalleek:... . i'll be level 13 before i can afford one :D. but i wish they had (and in fairness they might go into more detail) put in simpler homes/farms. like a city apartment/abode or starting a business like a farm or a fishing company for downtime.

Isn't the home supposed to be subsumed into the cost of lifestyle?

[Sartharina]

Isn't the home supposed to be subsumed into the cost of lifestyle?

Not really. But I think it's assumed you start with one for no cost somewhere, maybe.

[Talyn]

Lifestyle costs cover the maintenance of the home - but you need to buy the home first, I presume.

So yes, you could live in a palace and live a Modest life (no servants, only heat the rooms you live in, and let the rest go dark, dusty and cold), or live in a shack and have an Aristocratic lifestyle (where you drink and carouse all night, keep a mistress, or otherwise blow your money on frivolous things).

[Eslin]

Money's pretty easy to get - have your wizard take a couple of useful crafting proficiencies and fabricate things like plate armour and spyglasses until you're rich. Though if you want to make a fort, the wizard's also a pretty good source of free labour - animate a bunch of skeletons to do the basic stuff for you, as long as you can find/coerce some foremen who don't mind working with the undead you can save a heap on labour.

Anyone got a way to save on material costs aside from using move earth to create a perfect foundation/make it easier to extract rocks?

[GiantOctopodes]

Wall of Stone- you don't need money for materials *or* labor, just set down a foundation with flat ones on the ground, establish good footings, and build the whole thing with that spell. It specifically allows crenelations and battlements, and provides good hardness and thickness. Best yet, the panels can be in any configuration you want, and there is no listed limit to the number of them, so you can do a whole 240' radius of the thing at a time. The only thing you would need afterwards is a roof or floor dividers.

Edit: I meant diameter, not radius.

[Eslin]

Wall of Stone- you don't need money for materials *or* labor, just set down a foundation with flat ones on the ground, establish good footings, and build the whole thing with that spell. It specifically allows crenelations and battlements, and provides good hardness and thickness. Best yet, the panels can be in any configuration you want, and there is no listed limit to the number of them, so you can do a whole 240' radius of the thing at a time. The only thing you would need afterwards is a roof or floor dividers.

Can't believe I forgot about that, I used that and wall of iron all the time back in 3.5 for shenanigans.

[Slipperychicken]

Wall of Stone- you don't need money for materials *or* labor, just set down a foundation with flat ones on the ground, establish good footings, and build the whole thing with that spell. It specifically allows crenelations and battlements, and provides good hardness and thickness. Best yet, the panels can be in any configuration you want, and there is no listed limit to the number of them, so you can do a whole 240' radius of the thing at a time. The only thing you would need afterwards is a roof or floor dividers.


If you happen to be able to cast it yourself, you still have to pay with your own time, labor, and spell slots. Those are arguably your most valuable resources.


If you have to get an NPC wizard, level 9 or higher to do it, you're probably going to have to compensate him somehow.

[Easy_Lee]

If you happen to be able to cast it yourself, you still have to pay with your own time, labor, and spell slots. Those are arguably your most valuable resources.


If you have to get an NPC wizard, level 9 or higher to do it, you're probably going to have to compensate him somehow.

Should be able to offer him some dungeon loot, since neither his services nor magical gear has a set price.

[Kornaki]

So, by RAW if you aren't around to supervise construction you are better off not letting them construct anything. The intent is it takes 4 times as long to build, but all it says is you add on three days of work for every day you aren't around. Each of those days of work, when they're worked on, will add another three days of work. And so forth and so forth.

Obviously RAI will subsume RAW in this case, but it would be a funny table reaction when the party hires a construction company to make the castle in one year, and comes back six months later to find out the castle is now two years behind schedule.

[Slipperychicken]

Obviously RAI will subsume RAW in this case, but it would be a funny table reaction when the party hires a construction company to make the castle in one year, and comes back six months later to find out the castle is now two years behind schedule.

Or consider that the construction will never get finished unless you personally hold their hands through the entire process, and that every moment you turn your back, their incompetence undoes 4 days worth of progress.


With all the scandals about cost overruns, it almost sounds like some real-world construction companies...

[Eslin]

So, by RAW if you aren't around to supervise construction you are better off not letting them construct anything. The intent is it takes 4 times as long to build, but all it says is you add on three days of work for every day you aren't around. Each of those days of work, when they're worked on, will add another three days of work. And so forth and so forth.

Obviously RAI will subsume RAW in this case, but it would be a funny table reaction when the party hires a construction company to make the castle in one year, and comes back six months later to find out the castle is now two years behind schedule.

That is amazingly badly written. I love the idea - pay contractors 500 gold, tell them to build an outdoor toilet, they say it'll take them a week. Go on an adventure, come back in 10 years time, they're still working on it but it'll be another 30 years until it's done. Though they'll still spend those 40 years working for that 500 gold payment.

As a side note, even if the rules weren't edited and proofread by cats and did what they were supposed to - how does that make sense? Any time you, an adventurer with no experience in construction or managing large groups, are not directly supervising the construction everything crawls to a halt.

The first construction crew to invent the role of foreman is going to instantly put everyone out of business, since they work at literally four times the speed.

[Easy_Lee]

Solution: give your familiar the gold and have it pay for the construction. Since "you" refers to whoever paid for the construction, the familiar can just stay on hand to oversee the work and make sure it's completed on time. May not be RAI, but RAW? I dunno, it's pretty badly written...

[Eslin]

Solution: give your familiar the gold and have it pay for the construction. Since "you" refers to whoever paid for the construction, the familiar can just stay on hand to oversee the work and make sure it's completed on time. May not be RAI, but RAW? I dunno, it's pretty badly written...

I approve. Or hand the foreman a bunch of money and make it clear that though it's in your name and you gave him the money to do so, he's paying for the construction. But hope he doesn't go home sick, because if he takes a week off they'll actively undo three week's worth of work.

[Slipperychicken]

if he takes a week off they'll actively undo three week's worth of work.

Maybe construction workers delay completion as long as they can because of the lifestyle rules: they get to maintain a modest lifestyle for free as long as they practice their profession. There's no requirement that they be paid for every day they work.

If they finish up a job and can't find more work, that's it: No free lifestyle means they need to pay for their lifestyle, and they can only cross their fingers and hope their savings will carry them through unemployment without going homeless.

[Selkirk]

yeah that bit about the workers taking longer while your on adventure is sketchy at best. as noted above-what qualifications does my halfling cleric have to supervise the building of a keep? i guess i could stand around and curse at them :D.

[Eslin]

yeah that bit about the workers taking longer while your on adventure is sketchy at best. as noted above-what qualifications does my halfling cleric have to supervise the building of a keep? i guess i could stand around and curse at them :D.

No, taking longer is just the intent. What actually happens is for every day you don't directly supervise, the workers dismantle three day's worth of construction.

[Logosloki]

Solution: give your familiar the gold and have it pay for the construction. Since "you" refers to whoever paid for the construction, the familiar can just stay on hand to oversee the work and make sure it's completed on time. May not be RAI, but RAW? I dunno, it's pretty badly written...

Another solution would be to use the noble variant and have your retainers act as a site leaders with one as a messenger who gives you status reports because roleplaying.

[Eslin]

Another solution would be to use the noble variant and have your retainers act as a site leaders with one as a messenger who gives you status reports because roleplaying.

So I'm assuming the actual solution is going to your DM and saying 'look, the rules are obviously ridiculous. How does not supervising them add 3 days of work per day? And even if it just means 1/4 speed as they probably thought they wrote (because again, edited by cats), why is my elven barbarian who has never built a thing in his life required on site to quadruple work speed?

[MunkeeGamer]

... why is my elven barbarian who has never built a thing in his life required on site to quadruple work speed?

As a business professional manager/DM, I think you just answered your own question. This is a generalization-I'm making broad strokes here and I'm aware of that. I'm defending the silly rules just for fun. And there are exceptions to what I'm about to say, but what you'll see most commonly in the real world is something like what the rules have stated.

Subordinates and employees with no management around will either do nothing or cause negative progress. You put an elf barbarian staring them down, they're gonna make sure that elf is getting its money's worth so they don't have any trouble. He's off adventuring then they're gonna sublimate to the lowest common denominator. Out of sight, out of mind. With no accountability, all they have to say is that there was a problem getting materials or someone got sick or the weather was bad and that barbarian has no recourse to argue about the slow pace.

Basically, with no internet, better business bureau, consumer reports, or other market competition; even a construction business owner has little motivation to work hard for a customer who's gone for weeks at a time. He can just shrug and say, "If you don't like it, how about you hire the other constructions guys? Oh wait- the next construction company is a month long trip through mountain trails and bandit ridden low-lands."

So my DM homebrew to this situation is that you can work the construction modifier with sufficiently high DC charisma intimidation or inspiration, anywhere between -3 to +3 where 0 represents the pace when you're present. -3 means you walk away without saying anything and leave the workers to their own lazy devices (as per the RAW). Then +3 is a glorious paladin who plees to his countrymen that their hardwork and support is improving their nation and the very forces of good themselves. Or the evil necromancer who threatens to turn the workers' families into undead slaves causing them to work harder than normal.

[MaxWilson]

Money's pretty easy to get - have your wizard take a couple of useful crafting proficiencies and fabricate things like plate armour and spyglasses until you're rich.

This just doesn't work at all by PHB rules. For crafting, you have to pay half the book price for materials, and guess how much you can sell the finished product for? That's right, half as much.

It's like the story about the guys who buy melons for fifty cents each, put the melons in their truck, and then take them down to the road and sell the melons for fifty cent each. After a few days of doing this, one of the guys looks at the other and says, "Hey Vern? We're not making very much money at this, are we?" The other guy nods slowly and says, "Hal, you're right. I think we need a bigger truck."

Fabricate is a bigger truck.

Edit: Fabricate is useful however for refurbishing hobgoblin weapons and armor, which are normally not in salable condition. Just craft a suit of chain mail from that suit of chain mail--obviously there are sufficient materials present.

[Eslin]

This just doesn't work at all by PHB rules. For crafting, you have to pay half the book price for materials, and guess how much you can sell the finished product for? That's right, half as much.

It's like the story about the guys who buy melons for fifty cents each, put the melons in their truck, and then take them down to the road and sell the melons for fifty cent each. After a few days of doing this, one of the guys looks at the other and says, "Hey Vern? We're not making very much money at this, are we?" The other guy nods slowly and says, "Hal, you're right. I think we need a bigger truck."

Fabricate is a bigger truck.

Edit: Fabricate is useful however for refurbishing hobgoblin weapons and armor, which are normally not in salable condition. Just craft a suit of chain mail from that suit of chain mail--obviously there are sufficient materials present.

How does that make any sense? Sales wise, someone's gotta be paying full price, there's a reason it's called full price. Production wise, are we honestly supposed to believe a spyglass takes 500g of metal and glass to create? The materials themselves are not very valuable, the 1000g comes from the (expensive) labour.

If that's RaW and the DM is running a game that adheres so rigidly to an economy that makes no sense, the players should feel free to RaW in return and produce a bunch of stupidly expensive poison (that wouldn't be so valuable if the DM was willing to think about how his world worked) with things like wild shape and polymorph and either sell it or master transmute it straight into gold.

[D.U.P.A.]

It may not be components in the spyglass itself, but may be the tools needed in creation, which are consumed (for example grindstones to cut glass etc)

[Eslin]

It may not be components in the spyglass itself, but may be the tools needed in creation, which are consumed (for example grindstones to cut glass etc)

Which still means that with a small amount of metal and glass, proficiency in whichever tool is relevant and the fabricate spell a wizard should be able to create several spyglasses in ten minutes.

[MaxWilson]

How does that make any sense? Sales wise, someone's gotta be paying full price, there's a reason it's called full price. Production wise, are we honestly supposed to believe a spyglass takes 500g of metal and glass to create? The materials themselves are not very valuable, the 1000g comes from the (expensive) labour.

If that's RaW and the DM is running a game that adheres so rigidly to an economy that makes no sense, the players should feel free to RaW in return and produce a bunch of stupidly expensive poison (that wouldn't be so valuable if the DM was willing to think about how his world worked) with things like wild shape and polymorph and either sell it or master transmute it straight into gold.


It doesn't make any sense. I intend to ignore those rules, especially the materials-cost rule.

To be honest, I would still use the sell-for-half-price rule if someone tried to unload something quickly (sell swords to a sword-merchant--sure, he'll pay you the bulk rate). But if someone wanted to set up a sword-selling business on a long-term basis, yes, they'd get full price whenever anyone came in to buy a sword from them. You'd be rate-limited by demand instead of supply, but at least you'd be making a profit.

The crafting rules overall are badly in need of a revamp, at least from the simulationist perspective.

[Eslin]

It doesn't make any sense. I intend to ignore those rules, especially the materials-cost rule.

To be honest, I would still use the sell-for-half-price rule if someone tried to unload something quickly (sell swords to a sword-merchant--sure, he'll pay you the bulk rate). But if someone wanted to set up a sword-selling business on a long-term basis, yes, they'd get full price whenever anyone came in to buy a sword from them. You'd be rate-limited by demand instead of supply, but at least you'd be making a profit.

The crafting rules overall are badly in need of a revamp, at least from the simulationist perspective.

Yep. Is there a site/forum post out there that you know of that's done a decent effort with D&D economics? Seems like the kind of thing that could transfer well between editions. I'll search for one now, just asking if you know of it.

[Slipperychicken]

Yep. Is there a site/forum post out there that you know of that's done a decent effort with D&D economics? Seems like the kind of thing that could transfer well between editions. I'll search for one now, just asking if you know of it.

No. D&D economics don't make sense, have never made sense, and probably never will. The closest thing to sensible dnd economics that I know of is ACKS' economic system, which works for a much lower-fantasy setting than D&D.

[Kornaki]

Maybe construction workers delay completion as long as they can because of the lifestyle rules: they get to maintain a modest lifestyle for free as long as they practice their profession. There's no requirement that they be paid for every day they work.

If they finish up a job and can't find more work, that's it: No free lifestyle means they need to pay for their lifestyle, and they can only cross their fingers and hope their savings will carry them through unemployment without going homeless.

This is hilarious and is now head-canon for me. The construction workers are just a bunch of little munchkins. If I DM a game I'm going to make it my personal mission to slip in a quest where you have to go on some epic adventure to find an honest construction company. Or maybe where the construction company's complaints about why they can't work any faster are the basis for the quests.

"Hey boss, welcome home. Sorry, the outhouse we were halfway through got destroyed yesterday.... ummm, some orcs came and wrecked it."

"OH hey, how's it going? You killed the orcs? Oh that's great, too bad some rowdy drow came through and tore up all the interior decoration."

"You got the drow too? Listen, while you were gone this dragon came by and just absolutely set fire to everything. Yeah, we're gonna be here for at least two more weeks trying to fix all this damage."


As far as fabricate I have no sympathy for someone who insists on applying RAW to how fabricate makes items, but refuses to let RAW apply to how they sell those items. I would let someone do it but they would have to sit in their shop for a number of days equal to how long the sword would take to make (at least). My logic for this is the following: if there was a huge backlog of demand for weaponry, there would be more blacksmiths, and the demand would cease. This is just basic economics (the same basic economics that you are demanding be applied to the game), so the world probably doesn't need somebody flooding it with full price swords (since if it did, there would be more people making swords right now). Similarly, blacksmiths will be working at a rate that lets them work constantly; they can control the quality and work-rate (and the price of course) and the swords that are made are economically the ones that make the most sense. So if there's one blacksmith in a village, it tells us that somebody probably wants to buy a sword every X days, where X is how long it takes to make a sword. At most, presumably he sometimes makes things other than swords. if people needed swords at a much greater rate he would just make shoddier ones faster, or someone else would become a blacksmith as well. It's just basic logic.

[Valefor Rathan]

on a side note-given the price of platemail relative to housing is anyone else thinking of robbing the local armorer?

I'll distract the guards, you grab the goods.

[Sartharina]

No. D&D economics don't make sense, have never made sense, and probably never will. The closest thing to sensible dnd economics that I know of is ACKS' economic system, which works for a much lower-fantasy setting than D&D.Is it really? Or is it merely lower-magic than 3.5 and 4e?


on a side note-given the price of platemail relative to housing is anyone else thinking of robbing the local armorer?

What makes you think the local armorer has any plate armor?

[Selkirk]

I'll distract the guards, you grab the goods.
:D..this actually could make for a good hook (or potentially bad one) for an evil party...



What makes you think the local armorer has any plate armor?
:smalleek:..:D. that is true the local armorer in phandalin didn't have plate (not that we could have afforded it :D).

but perhaps they have created a mild imbalance with the price of platemail generally. i mean 1200 gp creates situations where 2 suits of platemail (even selling at half price) is a pretty good haul for an adventuring party-don't hit the enemy knights with melee weapons...wouldn't want any dents in that plate :D.

[Easy_Lee]

Pose as a noble, order a suit of plate. When it's finished, break in and steal the armor and the money you paid up front.

Wait a minute, we're not supposed to play evil characters...we'll have to find an evil blacksmith.

[Valefor Rathan]

:D..this actually could make for a good hook (or potentially bad one) for an evil party...

/snip

but perhaps they have created a mild imbalance with the price of platemail generally. i mean 1200 gp creates situations where 2 suits of platemail (even selling at half price) is a pretty good haul for an adventuring party-don't hit the enemy knights with melee weapons...wouldn't want any dents in that plate :D.

1) Dented plate could still be salvaged. Advertise it as "scale mail-pending". :smallwink:

2) Why evil? Could be Neutral. OR the heroes liberating it from the villains. Robin Hood but more martial.

I've only played one game where players decided to spend their time crafting anything enough to impact an in-game economy (it was Shadowrun, we had a custom heavy pistol shop in our mansions basement, it was GLORIOUS) and every GM I've played with has been more than willing to work out a system that is easier on them while not completely FUBARing their world so I would bet someone on here comes up with a good starting set of houserules by the end of next week.

I believe in us.

[Sartharina]

but perhaps they have created a mild imbalance with the price of platemail generally. i mean 1200 gp creates situations where 2 suits of platemail (even selling at half price) is a pretty good haul for an adventuring party-don't hit the enemy knights with melee weapons...wouldn't want any dents in that plate :D.Plate armor has to be fitted to the wearer. But... actually, "He's too valuable to kill!" is actually something that came up a lot in Rennaisance Warfare and drives a lot of the code of chivalry.

[Freelance GM]

Solution: give your familiar the gold and have it pay for the construction. Since "you" refers to whoever paid for the construction, the familiar can just stay on hand to oversee the work and make sure it's completed on time.

I cannot recommend this in good conscience. As a DM, I would have WAAAY too much fun screwing with the players.

Adventurers return 400 days after leaving construction in the hands of the Wizard's Raven familiar.
Fighter: "Uh, where are the stairs?"
Familiar: "Oh, right. I forgot you all couldn't fly. Master, I made some changes to your design. Also, I have made a terrible mistake."

...After leaving construction in the hands of the Warlock's Imp familiar.
Warlock: "Wow, uh, that's a really menacing castle."
Imp: "Of coursssse, master. I've been working them like slaves, but I'm afraid it might take a few more weeks to finish the torture chambers and the slave pits."
Cleric: "Um. Wow. Warlock, we need to talk about your hobbies."
Warlock: "I swear I had nothing to do with this."

[Valefor Rathan]

...After leaving construction in the hands of the Warlock's Imp familiar.
Warlock: "Wow, uh, that's a really menacing castle."
Imp: "Of coursssse, master. I've been working them like slaves, but I'm afraid it might take a few more weeks to finish the torture chambers and the slave pits."
Cleric: "Um. Wow. Warlock, we need to talk about your hobbies."
Warlock: "I swear I had nothing to do with this."

What about the pseudo-dragon? :smallbiggrin:

[Beleriphon]

What about the pseudo-dragon? :smallbiggrin:

Comes out looking like a MLP clone?

[Gnomes2169]

Comes out looking like a MLP clone?

"So the marshmallow room is on the third floor, the gumdrop waterfall is in the cotton candy hall, and the gingerbread house is on the top!"

"Uh, what about my study... And my library...?"

"... You mean the unicorn pen and the sarsaparilla gardens?"

[Vogonjeltz]

Should be able to offer him some dungeon loot, since neither his services nor magical gear has a set price.

Right, so there's no guarantee he'd even want that. Maybe he'd make you go on a quest (go get my breakfast, it's three countries over and you have to harvest it from a Hydra in a dank marsh). DM discretion makes this a chancy proposal.



So, by RAW if you aren't around to supervise construction you are better off not letting them construct anything. The intent is it takes 4 times as long to build, but all it says is you add on three days of work for every day you aren't around. Each of those days of work, when they're worked on, will add another three days of work. And so forth and so forth.

Obviously RAI will subsume RAW in this case, but it would be a funny table reaction when the party hires a construction company to make the castle in one year, and comes back six months later to find out the castle is now two years behind schedule.

I don't read that as a recursive function, but rather as you say a hard limit: It takes 10 days to construct X, For any of those 10 days that you aren't around, bonus construction time increases by 3 days.


I'll distract the guards, you grab the goods.

Who can carry those goods? They're 65 lbs each! Even a strength 20 character couldn't carry more than 4 (which doesn't include the weight of their own gear/clothing). This is a common issue in Skyrim, or Fallout games. Some of the "valuable" items are significantly less valuable when we account for value in terms of money:weight ratio.

Despite its value, Plate armor only ranks 17th on the list of value per pound.

You'd be better off stealing: Spyglass, Platinum, Potions of healing, Alchemist's fire (flask), Gold, Viol's, Acid (vial), Holy water (flask), Hourglass, Thieve's tools, Longbow, Poisoner's kit, or Hand Crossbows.

That doesn't include the most valuable loot, those items that have no weight at all: Magnifying glass, Poison, basic (vial), Antitoxin (vial).

Loot to leave: Ladder (10-foot), Jug or pitcher, Pole (10-foot), Wheat, Whetstone, Torch, Greatclub, Flour, Chicken, Flask or tankard, Sack, Bucket, Barrel

No real surprises on that last list. Although I do find it funny that I wouldn't touch a 10-foot ladder with a 10-foot pole.

[jkat718]

@Vogonjeltz

One word: wagons. I always make sure to buy a wagon for every party I'm in, and it always pays off (unless it gets stolen, but that's what you get for leaving a cartload of gold outside the dungeon.) Also, if you want to go that extra mile, swagons (http://imgur.com/a/8fA2l):

http://i.imgur.com/n6aiD6e.png
Yes, that is a purple, roofed wagon with jacked up suspension and spinning gold rims, being pulled by ponies. And yes, it has the word "SWAGON" written on the side. In gold. And a flag. I love my players.

[Abithrios]

Oh, ****ing hell. Magic Item crafting is strictly the purview of spellcasters again. And ritual magic doesn't cut it.

On the other hand, I do not see any mention of having to use any of those spell slots for anything, and you do not appear to have to know any spell in particular to make a given item.

It may be possible to simply ignore the requirement with no extra consequences.

[Valefor Rathan]

Who can carry those goods? They're 65 lbs each! Even a strength 20 character couldn't carry more than 4 (which doesn't include the weight of their own gear/clothing). This is a common issue in Skyrim, or Fallout games. Some of the "valuable" items are significantly less valuable when we account for value in terms of money:weight ratio.

Despite its value, Plate armor only ranks 17th on the list of value per pound.

You'd be better off stealing: Spyglass, Platinum, Potions of healing, Alchemist's fire (flask), Gold, Viol's, Acid (vial), Holy water (flask), Hourglass, Thieve's tools, Longbow, Poisoner's kit, or Hand Crossbows.

That doesn't include the most valuable loot, those items that have no weight at all: Magnifying glass, Poison, basic (vial), Antitoxin (vial).

Loot to leave: Ladder (10-foot), Jug or pitcher, Pole (10-foot), Wheat, Whetstone, Torch, Greatclub, Flour, Chicken, Flask or tankard, Sack, Bucket, Barrel

No real surprises on that last list. Although I do find it funny that I wouldn't touch a 10-foot ladder with a 10-foot pole.

I say again - You grab the loot, I'll distract the guards. :smallwink:

[MukkTB]

I don't like this. If the party gets a hold of any magic item creation recipes they can tie gold to party power. I thought a major design goal of 5e was to decouple character power from character wealth. Of course even silly things like plate mail and the size of your healing potion stack would disagree with that idea.

[1337 b4k4]

So while it's really terribly horribly worded, I believe the intent of the 3 day construction rule is to tie up your downtime. It says that the given construction time is for " the amount of time it takes, provided that the character is using downtime to oversee construction" (emphasis mine). Since downtime is defined as the time between adventures, it has to be assumed that some construction proceeds as planned during adventures. I read the 3 day rule as saying for every day of downtime during which you aren't supervising, you add 3 days to the construction. Again, it's terribly worded, and doesn't make a lot of simulationist sense (why is a day away slaying dragons different from a day away doing something else) but I believe the intent is to limit your downtime activities to one item at a time.

As an alternative rule, you might say that players can be absent from the construction project for Construction Time / 10 days. For each day past this amount that they're absent without having returned to review progress, add 3 days time. So for example the players have hired laborers to build a trading post. They go on an adventure for 5 days and return and survey the work, 5 day of construction occurred as planned. Then they go on another adventure, and they're gone for 8 days. They return to find that the tile guy was drinking on the job and the entire kitchen area needs to be re-tiled. Construction will take an additional 6 days (8 days gone - 6 days allowed = 2 x3 extra days of construction)

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't like this. If the party gets a hold of any magic item creation recipes they can tie gold to party power. I thought a major design goal of 5e was to decouple character power from character wealth. Of course even silly things like plate mail and the size of your healing potion stack would disagree with that idea.

You're completely misinterpreting a design goal, which was allow the DM to run games with as much or little magic as they want without breaking the fundamental balance of the game through mandatory magical stat enhancement. Of course gold is going to translate into power, at least on some level. Even if it doesn't translate into mechanical power it translates into power via story

The important point is that the DM is in control of all of this. He doesn't have to make magic item creation recipes available, and he doesn't have to give the party piles of platinum.

[Stray]

The important point is that the DM is in control of all of this. He doesn't have to make magic item creation recipes available, and he doesn't have to give the party piles of platinum.

Even better, it's entirely optional and up to DM whether those rules are used in the campaign or not. If you don't like them, don't use them, and players can't complain that you are taking away their class abilities or that they wasted a feat on Craft Wondrous Item or something like that.