An interesting tid-bit about magic item creation

[CyberThread]

Crafting a Magic Item
Magic items are the DM’s purview, so you decide how
they fall into the party’s possession. As an option, you
can allow player characters to craft magic items.
The creation of a magic item is a lengthy, expensive
task. To start, a character must have a formula that
describes the construction of the item. The character
must also be a spellcaster with spell slots and must
be able to cast any spells that the item can produce.
Moreover, the character must meet a level minimum
determined by the item’s rarity, as shown in the Crafting
Magic Items table. For example, a 3rd-level character
could create a wand of magic missiles (an uncommon
item), as long as the character has spell slots and can



Everyone in the other thread is arguing about fort cost. I think this right here is a good reveal of how magic may work for us wizards.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I saw that and immediately thought, "Oh ho! +1 weapons are also 'uncommon', and require a 2nd level Magic Weapon spell. Sounds like a 3rd level wizard could do it, with the right resources."

[JAL_1138]

Yeah, I saw that and immediately thought, "Oh ho! +1 weapons are also 'uncommon', and require a 2nd level Magic Weapon spell. Sounds like a 3rd level wizard could do it, with the right resources."

That doesn't make much sense with the "magic items are rare and priceless" thing. 3rd level wizards can't be that uncommon. Sooner or later a few are going to say "hey, there's a demand for these since some creatures are immune to mundane weapons," and start a business venture. Either providing aftermarket enchantments, or taking up with a good smith or bowyer for a percentage or partnership, or simply taking the 250 days for proficiency with smith's tools and opening their own shops. Price would naturally then be based on components and labor, with a markup for overhead and allowing a bit of profit, and another price hike for being the only game in town--until competition shows up, which it would when the next 3rd-level wizard saw the coin the first one was making.

It's right back to being "Magic weapons! Get yer magical weapons right here! Can't touch a golem without one! Fresh from the laboratory, just like mama used ta make! Five thousand, and that's cuttin' me own throat!" :smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

That doesn't make much sense with the "magic items are rare and priceless" thing. 3rd level wizards can't be that uncommon. Sooner or later a few are going to say "hey, there's a demand for these since some creatures are immune to mundane weapons," and start a business venture.

Well, it depends very much on what's in those magical item creation rules, right? It may still involve good old dwarf-mine quests to get adopted into a clan so you can get the magical ore to use together with leprechaun gold and faerie laughter to forge your magical sword--just maybe without the Enchant an Item spell. When I said, "with the right resources," this is what I meant--we don't know yet what resources will be required.

But yes, "rare and priceless" and "can be created by a party member after your fourth adventure session" don't go well together. We'll see what happens.

BTW, it's hard to see how magical weapons could compete economically with Giant Snake venom unless the magical items are insanely cheap. +1 to-hit/damage continuously is quite valuable to adventurers who kill things all the time and have high static damage bonuses through class feats, but for a regular soldier, +3d6 (DC 13 save for half) is better even if it only lasts for one battle, because it improves the chances of you actually winning that battle and living to fight another day. If a +1 sword cost even as little as 1000 gp to make you'd still be better off with poisons, even if poisons are sold at book price.

[JAL_1138]

Well, it depends very much on what's in those magical item creation rules, right? It may still involve good old dwarf-mine quests to get adopted into a clan so you can get the magical ore to use together with leprechaun gold and faerie laughter to forge your magical sword--just maybe without the Enchant an Item spell. When I said, "with the right resources," this is what I meant--we don't know yet what resources will be required.

But yes, "rare and priceless" and "can be created by a party member after your fourth adventure session" don't go well together. We'll see what happens.

BTW, it's hard to see how magical weapons could compete economically with Giant Snake venom unless the magical items are insanely cheap. +1 to-hit/damage continuously is quite valuable to adventurers who kill things all the time and have high static damage bonuses through class feats, but for a regular soldier, +3d6 (DC 13 save for half) is better even if it only lasts for one battle, because it improves the chances of you actually winning that battle and living to fight another day. If a +1 sword cost even as little as 1000 gp to make you'd still be better off with poisons, even if poisons are sold at book price.

True--though Giant Snake venom has to be gotten from the giant snake, which may be trying to supply you with it by way of your jugular vein, so that might be a wash. And I'm AFB but I don't know if poisons bypass resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapons.

"Look, guv, in a solid week you're gonna save money in the long run. That giant snake stuff only lasts a minute. One. Minute. Say you pour it on your sword and the enemy runs off and holes up? That's 200 quid right down the privy. How much o'that you gonna carry? In glass bottles what can break if you slip and fall? Five bottles is five minutes. Say you get drafted to th' regiments. Ain't never seen a proper clashin' o' the armies go by quicker'n a minute, so that's 200 quid per scuffle and it won't last, innit? Or say yer inna woods, and you thinks you're gonna kill you some dinner, and you spend 200 quid to bring down a giant elk. An elk once bit my sister. Mind you, elk bites kan be pretti nasti. Anyway. If yer on yer way home with the aforesaid antlered animal an' you get waylaid by bandits, a frighteningly common o-currence on there here highways--hence the name highwayman--you've gotta hope you got enough time to spend 200 quid retrievin' yer bottle, uncorkin' it, and pourin' it on your sword. Now I dunno about you, guv, but looks ta me like that don't make much sense compared ta a solid weapon what never runs out of bein' magic, huh? No upkeep, no breakables, no havin' to worry whether yer minute's up before you start swingin'. An' what's more, it works on them blasphemous-profanity-against-all-what's-holy kinda critters what a reg'lar sword'll bounce right off of, poison or no. Can't hardly say it was a better deal to git some poison when an inhuman monstrosity's laughin' off yer attacks before it splits yer skull like a melon, right? An' you don't hafta git a magic sword from a big snake what can kill ya in one bite, chomp, just like that--you jus' hafta pay me a bit o' cash right here, safe an' easy. Thousand quid, an' that's cuttin' me own throat."

...I suppose you could kill the snake with the sausage-inna-bun available from the same retailer...

[S_Dalsgaard]

Well, it depends very much on what's in those magical item creation rules, right? It may still involve good old dwarf-mine quests to get adopted into a clan so you can get the magical ore to use together with leprechaun gold and faerie laughter to forge your magical sword--just maybe without the Enchant an Item spell. When I said, "with the right resources," this is what I meant--we don't know yet what resources will be required.

But yes, "rare and priceless" and "can be created by a party member after your fourth adventure session" don't go well together. We'll see what happens.

BTW, it's hard to see how magical weapons could compete economically with Giant Snake venom unless the magical items are insanely cheap. +1 to-hit/damage continuously is quite valuable to adventurers who kill things all the time and have high static damage bonuses through class feats, but for a regular soldier, +3d6 (DC 13 save for half) is better even if it only lasts for one battle, because it improves the chances of you actually winning that battle and living to fight another day. If a +1 sword cost even as little as 1000 gp to make you'd still be better off with poisons, even if poisons are sold at book price.

Who cares about price if you can be among the first to have the new iSword +1.

[MaxWilson]

AFB doesn't matter because the DMG isn't out yet (well, I guess it might be in some time zones) but here is the link: http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMG_257_8.pdf

"A creature that takes slashing or piercing damage from a weapon or piece of ammunition coated with injury poison is exposed to its effects."

Ergo, weapon resistance doesn't help against poison damage unless you roll a 1 on damage (rounded down to zero), but weapon immunity does. (Weapon immunity doesn't help against any other poison type though, e.g. inhaled or contact.)

[Eslin]

JAL does have a point - a magic weapon has prestige, convenience, re-usability and reliability going for it. Though poisons by the book price seem unlikely considering how many ways there are of manufacturing them cheaply.

In case you are selling them at half to full market value though, I would imagine giant scorpion farming would be fairly profitable - cut its claws off and put a metal box over its sting, chain it down and unlock the door to the box whenever you want to harvest. Bam, 4d10 poison.

Actually, I suppose what you'd do is build a cage and lasso the tail from above, then drag the scorpion backwards towards the side of the cage to avoid any danger (from the declawed scorpion that can't sting, but you can't be too careful). The whole setup would be kind of cruel, but scorpions are int 1 vermin so eh.

[Slipperychicken]

That doesn't make much sense with the "magic items are rare and priceless" thing. 3rd level wizards can't be that uncommon. Sooner or later a few are going to say "hey, there's a demand for these since some creatures are immune to mundane weapons," and start a business venture. Either providing aftermarket enchantments, or taking up with a good smith or bowyer for a percentage or partnership, or simply taking the 250 days for proficiency with smith's tools and opening their own shops. Price would naturally then be based on components and labor, with a markup for overhead and allowing a bit of profit, and another price hike for being the only game in town--until competition shows up, which it would when the next 3rd-level wizard saw the coin the first one was making.

It's right back to being "Magic weapons! Get yer magical weapons right here! Can't touch a golem without one! Fresh from the laboratory, just like mama used ta make! Five thousand, and that's cuttin' me own throat!" :smalltongue:

The guy in the DMG questions thread says it has pricing guidelines, according to the item's rarity. Also, we don't even need crafting feats anymore: any caster can make magic items now if he has the cash, a permissive DM, the right level, and the right spells.


Also, I never agreed with the "priceless magic items" deal in D&D. The setting is just too high-fantasy to support that, especially when a) every core class can use magic, b) countless monsters and enemy types have magic baked into their physiology, and c) magic is all but required to defeat some enemy types.

[Dalebert]

I've always felt like the made magic item creation too easy and generic in 3.5. It was great that they elaborated on it at all. It was absurd in 2.0 and basically amounted to "We really just don't want you to do it" and the process was so laborious that you didn't. But then 3.5 comes along and you take a lvl 3 feat and you know how to craft every single wondrous item with just a cash price for materials you can buy in most cities. Since they're going with the idea that magic items are definitely not needed as they were in 3.5, I think they should back off in the direction of 2.0 a little bit.

Also, they don't need to make wizards, clerics, and druids superior to everyone else in yet another way. They could easily do away with the "you must know the spell" reqt and replace it with other complications. I like how PF has a way to replace that reqt with high enough skill. Maybe change requirements for a specific spell to something like ability to cast spells of level X. That will still favor full casters and limit the power level of crafted items which makes sense but it's easy enough to figure that they're endowing the item in some way other than with their own magical power--maybe using inherently magical components that are difficult to obtain like a unicorn horn for a healing wand or a dragon bone for a wand of fireballs. Being able to cast fireball yourself could be irrelevant to making an item that can cast it.

[MaxWilson]

It turns out that you can make magic weapons pretty easily. +1 weapons are 500 gp, +2 weapons are 5000 gp, and +3 weapons are 50,000 gp. (DMG says "feel free to adjust these costs to suit your campaign," but those are the book rates.) D&D hates all crafters, not just mundanes, so you can make +1 weapons in 20 days, +2 weapons in 200 days, and +3 weapons in 2000 days. There are level requirements as well but they're not onerous.

Therefore, it looks like +1 weapons are pretty easy to come by, but +3 weapons are infeasible. The expectation then is that high-level characters can definitely have magic weapons but they aren't guaranteed to have high enhancement bonuses.

[Giant2005]

It turns out that you can make magic weapons pretty easily. +1 weapons are 500 gp, +2 weapons are 5000 gp, and +3 weapons are 50,000 gp. (DMG says "feel free to adjust these costs to suit your campaign," but those are the book rates.) D&D hates all crafters, not just mundanes, so you can make +1 weapons in 20 days, +2 weapons in 200 days, and +3 weapons in 2000 days. There are level requirements as well but they're not onerous.

Therefore, it looks like +1 weapons are pretty easy to come by, but +3 weapons are infeasible. The expectation then is that high-level characters can definitely have magic weapons but they aren't guaranteed to have high enhancement bonuses.

Nah you just have to expand your Simulcrum army. With 2000 of them, you could make that +3 weapon in a day.

[Ghost Nappa]

You could easily make the change that you need access to any spell that the weapon or armor will use.

This could be from a scroll or another person, but I do think it makes sense that a weapon can't be magic unless you apply magic to it.

It's a bit silly to restrict it to spellcasters only, but you would still need the magic to come from somewhere.

You could always use already magical material to make more powerful magical material. Do something like destroying X amount of +1 weapons to construct a +2.

Edit: According to DMG p. 285, the highest modifier on weapons and such is actually +4, although the text implies this is at 9th level spell times.

[Vogonjeltz]

True--though Giant Snake venom has to be gotten from the giant snake, which may be trying to supply you with it by way of your jugular vein, so that might be a wash. And I'm AFB but I don't know if poisons bypass resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapons.

"Look, guv, in a solid week you're gonna save money in the long run. That giant snake stuff only lasts a minute. One. Minute. Say you pour it on your sword and the enemy runs off and holes up? That's 200 quid right down the privy. How much o'that you gonna carry? In glass bottles what can break if you slip and fall? Five bottles is five minutes. Say you get drafted to th' regiments. Ain't never seen a proper clashin' o' the armies go by quicker'n a minute, so that's 200 quid per scuffle and it won't last, innit? Or say yer inna woods, and you thinks you're gonna kill you some dinner, and you spend 200 quid to bring down a giant elk. An elk once bit my sister. Mind you, elk bites kan be pretti nasti. Anyway. If yer on yer way home with the aforesaid antlered animal an' you get waylaid by bandits, a frighteningly common o-currence on there here highways--hence the name highwayman--you've gotta hope you got enough time to spend 200 quid retrievin' yer bottle, uncorkin' it, and pourin' it on your sword. Now I dunno about you, guv, but looks ta me like that don't make much sense compared ta a solid weapon what never runs out of bein' magic, huh? No upkeep, no breakables, no havin' to worry whether yer minute's up before you start swingin'. An' what's more, it works on them blasphemous-profanity-against-all-what's-holy kinda critters what a reg'lar sword'll bounce right off of, poison or no. Can't hardly say it was a better deal to git some poison when an inhuman monstrosity's laughin' off yer attacks before it splits yer skull like a melon, right? An' you don't hafta git a magic sword from a big snake what can kill ya in one bite, chomp, just like that--you jus' hafta pay me a bit o' cash right here, safe an' easy. Thousand quid, an' that's cuttin' me own throat."

...I suppose you could kill the snake with the sausage-inna-bun available from the same retailer...

Do all your campaigns take place in My Fair Lady? ;)

Seriously though, magic item creation is DM discretion as a variant, so ye olde magick item shoppe is still a fantasy in this fantasy world. Insofar as 5th edition is concerned.

[Eslin]

You could easily make the change that you need access to any spell that the weapon or armor will use.

This could be from a scroll or another person, but I do think it makes sense that a weapon can't be magic unless you apply magic to it.

It's a bit silly to restrict it to spellcasters only, but you would still need the magic to come from somewhere.

You could always use already magical material to make more powerful magical material. Do something like destroying X amount of +1 weapons to construct a +2.

Edit: According to DMG p. 285, the highest modifier on weapons and such is actually +4, although the text implies this is at 9th level spell times.

Sweet, true polymorphing ants into +4 ice devil spears it is =D

Actually, having seen it, true polymorphing them into staves of the magi seems more fun. Bundle them together, toss and break them as the world's most powerful grenades.


Do all your campaigns take place in My Fair Lady? ;)

Seriously though, magic item creation is DM discretion as a variant, so ye olde magick item shoppe is still a fantasy in this fantasy world. Insofar as 5th edition is concerned.
At least until someone gets ahold of true polymorph =P

[Slipperychicken]

You could easily make the change that you need access to any spell that the weapon or armor will use.


Isn't this already the case in 5e?

[Ghost Nappa]

Isn't this already the case in 5e?

For crafting magic items? Sort of.

Currently it's "You need to be a spellcaster, with spell slots and access to the spells you want on the weapons."

I'm saying you can easily change it to just "You need access to the spells you want on the weapons."

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Nah you just have to expand your Simulcrum army. With 2000 of them, you could make that +3 weapon in a day.

Stop saying this. This does not work. That is not how it works, either by RAW or RAI. And if it did, no DM would sanction it.

Back on topic, why would a PC spellcaster ever look to make their own Magic Weapons? Or for someone else? 200 days for a +2? In addition to the, what, 5,000gp cost? And that's cost, not the full price. That +1 Flaming Sword is not leaving the Wizard's presence for anything less than 15,000gp, and that's if he's a friend.

So, leaving aside the cost in stuff needed to craft the weapon, that magic weapon will cost the wizard something like a year of his life. While some races can live for centuries, most just live for 1-2, so a year is, proportionally, a percentage of one's life one is giving up to help someone else. It's like being a Blacksmith who only works special orders to make customized gothic-plate armor. Sure you'll make money, but only once or twice a year. Seems like a risky business as opposed to cranking out nails by the boat load.

And then! You need the schematics to make an item. Which in some setting means paying a fee to the patent holder (Ebberon), or renting it from the local library (Forgotten Realms), but I suspect most DMs will require a dungeon crawl in order to get one, so that's more costs on top of the crafting.

tl;dr: Wizard PCs will find it cost effective to kill monsters and loot their magic items as opposed to making something themselves.

[JoeJ]

Nah you just have to expand your Simulcrum army. With 2000 of them, you could make that +3 weapon in a day.

That would have be a frickin' big weapon if 2000 simulacra could all work on it at once.

[Giant2005]

That would have be a frickin' big weapon if 2000 simulacra could all work on it at once.

Not really. Just put it in the middle of a field and have them all surround it in a circle chanting their spells.

[Eslin]

Stop saying this. This does not work. That is not how it works, either by RAW or RAI. And if it did, no DM would sanction it.
RaI probably not considering the '1 per caster' deal, but RaW it works fine since nobody down the chain has more than 1 simulacrum.

[JoeJ]

Not really. Just put it in the middle of a field and have them all surround it in a circle chanting their spells.

Is it only chanting spells? I was under the impression that the creator actually had to forge the thing.

[Slipperychicken]

That would have be a frickin' big weapon if 2000 simulacra could all work on it at once.

It's called an assembly line.


And now I want to play through a dungeon which is an abandoned magic item factory. It could be a pretty cool thing for the ancient/precursor civilization to have.

[JoeJ]

It's called an assembly line.


And now I want to play through a dungeon which is an abandoned magic item factory. It could be a pretty cool thing for the ancient/precursor civilization to have.

Maybe if 2000 druids all used wild shape to become spiders they could all forge a weapon together. I just have to figure out a quick way to get 2000 tiny hammers.

[JAL_1138]

Do all your campaigns take place in My Fair Lady? ;)
.

No, but every shopkeeper is CMOT Dibbler ("An' that's cuttin me own throat"). Or Dib Diblonsson, Disembowel-Meself-Honorably Dibhalah, Cut-Me-Own-Hand-Off Dhblah, Swallow-Me-Own-Blowdart Dhlang-Dhlang, May-I-Never-Achieve-Enlightenment Dhiblang....

Send-Meself-To-The-Mazes Dibblerson, Break-Me-Own-10ft-Pole-In-Half Debblin, Send-Meself-Into-The-Tomb-Of-Horrors Dibblenshire, May-I-Never-See-Arborea Di'bellia, Puttin'-Me-Portable-Hole-Into-A-Bag-Of-Holding DeBlears, etc., etc.

[MaxWilson]

Stop saying this. This does not work. That is not how it works, either by RAW or RAI. And if it did, no DM would sanction it.

Back on topic, why would a PC spellcaster ever look to make their own Magic Weapons? Or for someone else? 200 days for a +2? In addition to the, what, 5,000gp cost? And that's cost, not the full price. That +1 Flaming Sword is not leaving the Wizard's presence for anything less than 15,000gp, and that's if he's a friend.

So, leaving aside the cost in stuff needed to craft the weapon, that magic weapon will cost the wizard something like a year of his life. While some races can live for centuries, most just live for 1-2, so a year is, proportionally, a percentage of one's life one is giving up to help someone else.

What if you are selling Flaming Swords in order to raise money for your Simulacrum and your much-younger Clone?

Honestly I'm fine with the prices for high-end items. If a Staff of the Magi takes 55 years to create, well, that explains why most Staves of the Magi were created by long-dead civilizations and not extant wizards. The things I have a problem with are the low-end items (+1 weapons/shields, Wands of Fireballs) which are too easy, and spell scrolls which are too hard. So I will probably tweak the cost curve and/or the crafting rules.

[Ghost Nappa]

Stop saying this. This does not work. That is not how it works, either by RAW or RAI. And if it did, no DM would sanction it.

Back on topic, why would a PC spellcaster ever look to make their own Magic Weapons? Or for someone else? 200 days for a +2? In addition to the, what, 5,000gp cost? And that's cost, not the full price. That +1 Flaming Sword is not leaving the Wizard's presence for anything less than 15,000gp, and that's if he's a friend.

So, leaving aside the cost in stuff needed to craft the weapon, that magic weapon will cost the wizard something like a year of his life. While some races can live for centuries, most just live for 1-2, so a year is, proportionally, a percentage of one's life one is giving up to help someone else. It's like being a Blacksmith who only works special orders to make customized gothic-plate armor. Sure you'll make money, but only once or twice a year. Seems like a risky business as opposed to cranking out nails by the boat load.

And then! You need the schematics to make an item. Which in some setting means paying a fee to the patent holder (Ebberon), or renting it from the local library (Forgotten Realms), but I suspect most DMs will require a dungeon crawl in order to get one, so that's more costs on top of the crafting.

tl;dr: Wizard PCs will find it cost effective to kill monsters and loot their magic items as opposed to making something themselves.

Maybe they enjoy making things? Maybe it's a gift?

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe they enjoy making things? Maybe it's a gift?

Or more likely, some monarch commissioned it, to show off his wealth and prestige by waving around a sword which costs as much as a small castle.

[Dalebert]

Or more likely, some monarch commissioned it, to show off his wealth and prestige by waving around a sword which costs as much as a small castle.

Valyrian steel!

[Inchoroi]

True--though Giant Snake venom has to be gotten from the giant snake, which may be trying to supply you with it by way of your jugular vein, so that might be a wash. And I'm AFB but I don't know if poisons bypass resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapons.

"Look, guv, in a solid week you're gonna save money in the long run. That giant snake stuff only lasts a minute. One. Minute. Say you pour it on your sword and the enemy runs off and holes up? That's 200 quid right down the privy. How much o'that you gonna carry? In glass bottles what can break if you slip and fall? Five bottles is five minutes. Say you get drafted to th' regiments. Ain't never seen a proper clashin' o' the armies go by quicker'n a minute, so that's 200 quid per scuffle and it won't last, innit? Or say yer inna woods, and you thinks you're gonna kill you some dinner, and you spend 200 quid to bring down a giant elk. An elk once bit my sister. Mind you, elk bites kan be pretti nasti. Anyway. If yer on yer way home with the aforesaid antlered animal an' you get waylaid by bandits, a frighteningly common o-currence on there here highways--hence the name highwayman--you've gotta hope you got enough time to spend 200 quid retrievin' yer bottle, uncorkin' it, and pourin' it on your sword. Now I dunno about you, guv, but looks ta me like that don't make much sense compared ta a solid weapon what never runs out of bein' magic, huh? No upkeep, no breakables, no havin' to worry whether yer minute's up before you start swingin'. An' what's more, it works on them blasphemous-profanity-against-all-what's-holy kinda critters what a reg'lar sword'll bounce right off of, poison or no. Can't hardly say it was a better deal to git some poison when an inhuman monstrosity's laughin' off yer attacks before it splits yer skull like a melon, right? An' you don't hafta git a magic sword from a big snake what can kill ya in one bite, chomp, just like that--you jus' hafta pay me a bit o' cash right here, safe an' easy. Thousand quid, an' that's cuttin' me own throat."

...I suppose you could kill the snake with the sausage-inna-bun available from the same retailer...

That has to be the most amusing post I've ever read. All I can hear is Dibbler from a BBC Radio Drama I heard a few years ago.

[JAL_1138]

That has to be the most amusing post I've ever read. All I can hear is Dibbler from a BBC Radio Drama I heard a few years ago.

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Xetheral]

tl;dr: Wizard PCs will find it cost effective to kill monsters and loot their magic items as opposed to making something themselves.

Wait a moment... wasn't there a magic-item reset in 5e to explain the disappearance of magic item shops from the realms? Where are the monsters getting their magic weapons from?

[CyberThread]

Wait a moment... wasn't there a magic-item reset in 5e to explain the disappearance of magic item shops from the realms? Where are the monsters getting their magic weapons from?

Duh fromt he places you are trying to loot.

[MadGrady]

That has to be the most amusing post I've ever read. All I can hear is Dibbler from a BBC Radio Drama I heard a few years ago.

Along with the Holy Grail reference right in the middle, I'm going to have to agree

[Ninjadeadbeard]

RaI probably not considering the '1 per caster' deal, but RaW it works fine since nobody down the chain has more than 1 simulacrum.

Simulacrum has no way to regain spells, and it is a copy of your good self. You have just expended your 7th level spell slot, meaning that, as a copy, your Simulacrum does not have one. And even if a Sim* could regain spell slots using the Sorcerer Spell Points, Sorcerers can't regain 7th level slots like that.

This only works at 20th level since that's when you'll have a second 7th level slot, and even then, the chain stops at your Sim's Sim.

*short for Simulacrumthisisastupidword


What if you are selling Flaming Swords in order to raise money for your Simulacrum and your much-younger Clone?

Honestly I'm fine with the prices for high-end items. If a Staff of the Magi takes 55 years to create, well, that explains why most Staves of the Magi were created by long-dead civilizations and not extant wizards. The things I have a problem with are the low-end items (+1 weapons/shields, Wands of Fireballs) which are too easy, and spell scrolls which are too hard. So I will probably tweak the cost curve and/or the crafting rules.

If you had the money to make a magic item, you already had the money for a Simulacrum.

+1 items are pretty cool, but they still take time and money, and oftentimes a quest.


Maybe they enjoy making things? Maybe it's a gift?

There might be some people who like making items, but they aren't PCs. PCs travel the world, murdering and hobo-ing their way across the cosmos, looting everything they come into contact with.

And if that's a gift, then you marry that NPC and retire from adventuring right now! He loves you, and is absolutely loaded.

[MaxWilson]

If you had the money to make a magic item, you already had the money for a Simulacrum.

+1 items are pretty cool, but they still take time and money, and oftentimes a quest.

This turns out not to be the case. A Simulacrum costs 1500gp, a +1 sword costs 500gp.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

This turns out not to be the case. A Simulacrum costs 1500gp, a +1 sword costs 500gp.

Addendum: If you are 13th level and a spellcaster that can cast Simulacrum, there is a 99% chance you can pay for it with pocket change.

Besides, that +1 sword isn't being sold for 500gp. It took that much to make, so there's no excuse for a 3-400% price hike. They're not paying for the item, they're also paying for your time making it.

[MaxWilson]

Addendum: If you are 13th level and a spellcaster that can cast Simulacrum, there is a 99% chance you can pay for it with pocket change.

Besides, that +1 sword isn't being sold for 500gp. It took that much to make, so there's no excuse for a 3-400% price hike. They're not paying for the item, they're also paying for your time making it.

I don't follow. Are you just pointing out that you'll make a profit on the +1 sword? (By RAW you won't, but you should.) That's the whole point of making the sword instead of the Simulacrum--you leverage 500gp into 2000gp or more in order to cast Simulacrum.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I don't follow. Are you just pointing out that you'll make a profit on the +1 sword? (By RAW you won't, but you should.) That's the whole point of making the sword instead of the Simulacrum--you leverage 500gp into 2000gp or more in order to cast Simulacrum.

I'm just saying that by the time a Wizard/Sorcerer is capable of casting Simulacrum, they already own a Dragon Hoard's worth of loot, so the cost is never an issue. And yes, you should make a profit off a +1 sword you spent time and energy making.

[Teulisch]

the simulacrum trick gets worse with the DMG... after hitting level 20, you can earn 'epic boons' with XP, which may include things like immortality, or an extra 9th level spell slot. so with 2 lv 9 spell slots, Wish to cast simulacrum, your cost is only 1 9th level slot, and your creation will have a 9th level slot to create a simulacrum of you. and if i have a short rest before he does that, all future simulacrum have TWO 9th level slots, and so may have another spell ready after using that wish. which means if i have a second caster, such as a cleric or druid, then we can have just as many copies of him as we do of me. if we wanted to limit the silliness, we could claim a one-simulacrum per person per original caster, but the second-use from the simulacrum would then allow me to have another simulacrum with full slots... and if we use this on enough casters, we can have interesting results.

regardless, more casters makes the creation process faster. i would assume a 8-caster limit on items of medium size or smaller, as there are 8 squares around the item in which to stand. so lets say we have 8 casters, some of them simulacrium. only 1 actual use of a spell is needed each day, and wish can probably be used to replace any lower-level spell we may need by lack access to. so at 1/8th speed, we get uncommon magic items in only 2 and a half days, rare in 25 days (less than a month), and very rare in 250 days. legendary items will probably take multiple years any way you look at it, but it would take 54 years to do it working alone.

now, a few items are large in size, and could potentially have 12 casters working on them at a time, such as the (legendary) apparatus of Kwalish. 12 casters could do it in less than 5 years.

the real use for simulacrum abuse here, is all of the items you can create without using a spell at all, or using a spell only once. in those cases, you multiple simulacrum could work on items at your stronghold while you go adventuring. even with only one, thats a serious advantage for making the more common items. and its more secure if we have the word done in a demiplane, which we only need to check in on when we expect it to be ready, or to need more materials to work with.

[MaxWilson]

the simulacrum trick gets worse with the DMG... after hitting level 20, you can earn 'epic boons' with XP, which may include things like immortality, or an extra 9th level spell slot.

Effectively up to three 9th level slots, actually, since one of the boons allows you to cast a spell without losing a spell slot.

[EvilAnagram]

I kind of like the new item creation rules. A basic magic item takes a month of downtime, while a rare one takes a season if more than one PC works on it. If the PCs want to make an epic-level sword or staff, it will mean a significant investment in both time and money. In fact, the time and money investment could make it worthwhile as an adventure in and of itself.

In fact, if they did dedicate the time and resources to forging a very rare or legendary item, I'd make it a recurring item in future games.

[Safety Sword]

{scrubbed}

[Oscredwin]

I just want to remind everyone that all the magic item creation shenanigans require a recipe for the magic item and the only way to get one is "DM gives it to you" (on top of the fact that making magic items at all is optional).

[Erechel]

What if you are selling Flaming Swords in order to raise money for your Simulacrum and your much-younger Clone?

Honestly I'm fine with the prices for high-end items. If a Staff of the Magi takes 55 years to create, well, that explains why most Staves of the Magi were created by long-dead civilizations and not extant wizards. The things I have a problem with are the low-end items (+1 weapons/shields, Wands of Fireballs) which are too easy, and spell scrolls which are too hard. So I will probably tweak the cost curve and/or the crafting rules.:smalleek:

I'm not sure if you are going to be comfortable in a world where a wand of fireballs is a common item. The goblins and kobolds would be very nasty, because they are stealthy and cunning enough to destroy every city in the world with them, and forget about all the chivalry/medieval flavor. First knight in shinning armor, your average kobolds would blast them at sight. Even in masse they would be massacred, because of AOE.

Think in a fireball as an artillery weapon. And whereas in our world artillery is expensive and bulky, it's relatively easy to control. But a wand is a small item. And you don't even have to aim. This is why most DMs regulate the construction of magic items or magic in general, as it is an unbalancing force in the world (even most of the relatively "simple" spells are indeed very nasty, a lot better than even our technology). Pouring magic in the mix is always a source of conflict; there is an interesting example in the Wheel of Time books, where the magic, although ancient, it is rediscovered and reused through the main line of argument. In the final book, Mat Cauthon directs cannon fire from a hidden cave miles below the ground with the aid of portals, and it's hinted that this type of warfare is just beginning.

That's why DM's and game designers try to not make magic trivial. Consequences, or you are going to be running a very different campaign than you are intended to.