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ken-do-nim
2007-03-25, 02:07 PM
Hi,

In a nutshell, I am running a game tonight in which the party knows they are going up against a gaze attack monster. They have each procured a helmet with a mirror so they can see the creature in their 'rear-view mirror'. Unbeknownst to them however is that one of the npcs in the party is a traitor, and he plans to cast shatter on as many of the party as he can get within the area of effect. This will shatter all the mirrors in all the helmets, leaving those within the 5 foot radius area of effect blind. If that fails, he will just try shattering the helmets directly.

My question is: does every affected mirror & helmet get the will save of its possessor? I think so, but I want to make sure because I don't want to screw up.

Clementx
2007-03-25, 02:30 PM
Yes, they all get Will saves as attended objects.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-25, 04:17 PM
Yes, they all get Will saves as attended objects.

Thanks; I just wanted to double check. Someone once posted that an easy way for a wizard to defeat even a well-equipped fighter is to dispel magic one of his items (like say wings of flying) and follow that up with a shatter. Well I know fighters have bad will saves, but shatter is only a 2nd level spell so the will save won't be that tough. But if objects had their own saving throw table, then that would be a different story. Anyway, thanks for confirming.

Miles Invictus
2007-03-25, 04:28 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm



Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.


RAW, I'm not even sure Shatter will work on those mirrors, unless you target them specifically.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-25, 04:29 PM
I think the original dispel-and-shatter build used chaining to apply the effects to a large number of objects at once -- the fighter will likely fail some of his saves...

Fishies
2007-03-25, 04:32 PM
Hope your players don't go on these forums.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-25, 04:36 PM
Miles Invictus-

Depends on what the mirrors are made of. Silvered glass mirrors (like most mirrors in use today) would definitely fall into the first category. Polished metal mirrors (like those used in ancient times) would fall into the latter category.

Just to make it even more confusing, the only mirror listed in the SRD is listed as "small steel mirror" -- with no further description. This could either be a steel frame and back containing a silvered-glass mirror, or it could be a piece of highly polished steel. Here in the real world (smell the dying catgirls!) the latter is only possible using stainless steel -- which wasn't invented until the late 19th century...

So... *shrug*

Ranis
2007-03-25, 05:48 PM
Similar question about Shatter-my players beleive that using Shatter on an Iron Golem is essentially a Will Save Or Die spell for them, and that's not true, right? Unless they are an insanely high level to make up for the 10lbs/level difference, but even then, a golem counts as a magical object, so the whole point is moot, I suppose.

Right?

TheOOB
2007-03-25, 07:07 PM
Golems have a wisdom and charisma score, thus they are creatures and not objects, thus they are immune to shatter.

Quietus
2007-03-25, 09:16 PM
It does damage a "Crystalline creature", as a targeted spell... so it really depends on your DM. RAW, most golems aren't crystalline, so it'd be of no use against them, but my DM rules that most golems count as Shatter targets for the direct damage use.

Ranis
2007-03-25, 09:29 PM
It does damage a "Crystalline creature", as a targeted spell... so it really depends on your DM. RAW, most golems aren't crystalline, so it'd be of no use against them, but my DM rules that most golems count as Shatter targets for the direct damage use.

Yes, that I agree with, but was talking more along the lines of the fact that they thought it was a Will Save Or Die spell for it, which I totally disagree with.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-25, 09:36 PM
Similar question about Shatter-my players beleive that using Shatter on an Iron Golem is essentially a Will Save Or Die spell for them, and that's not true, right? Unless they are an insanely high level to make up for the 10lbs/level difference, but even then, a golem counts as a magical object, so the whole point is moot, I suppose.

Right?

A) Shatter can only target crystalline creatures if used against an animate creature.
B) Golem, being constructs, are considered creatures.
C) Even if they were objects, they'd be magical objects, and thus immune to Shatter.
D) They're immune to all but a select few spells anyway.

Fizban
2007-03-25, 09:43 PM
Yes, that I agree with, but was talking more along the lines of the fact that they thought it was a Will Save Or Die spell for it, which I totally disagree with.
They are completely wrong. One: a golem is a creature, not an object. 2: Shatter only deals a few d6's if used against a creature it can affect, which is not an Iron Golem. And 3: golems are immune to all but a few specific spells, which includes shatter.

Jack Mann
2007-03-25, 09:53 PM
Just to make it even more confusing, the only mirror listed in the SRD is listed as "small steel mirror" -- with no further description. This could either be a steel frame and back containing a silvered-glass mirror, or it could be a piece of highly polished steel. Here in the real world (smell the dying catgirls!) the latter is only possible using stainless steel -- which wasn't invented until the late 19th century...

It's clearer in the PHB, where it's described as a polished steel mirror.

Draak_Grafula
2007-03-26, 06:45 AM
The single solid object use of the spell only requires the object to be solid. Does that men one could shatter a leather armour? Or even a piece of rope? I think the RAW would let you but what do you guys rule?

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 07:39 AM
So is the attended object saving throw actually a will save made by the target creature/player? And does the type or level of magical goodness affect the save? I would imagine a +5 sword to get a +5 save, but that may be just me... ??? :smallconfused:

kamikasei
2007-03-26, 07:52 AM
The single solid object use of the spell only requires the object to be solid. Does that men one could shatter a leather armour? Or even a piece of rope? I think the RAW would let you but what do you guys rule?

The spell description says that it "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object", among its other effects. There was some discussion of this on the boards a while back, my reading is that it works like the sunder action, and so can target anything that a sunder can. Your interpretation may differ, and certainly the fluff of it is a little odd.

edit: It does specifically state, though, that you can target a single nonmagical object "regardless of composition".

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 07:55 AM
Hmmm, it does say non-magic. That should specifically exclude crystalline creatures since they are inherantly magical. It does explain why Xykon was able to Shatter Roy's sword, it was an heirloom, but not magical.

Person_Man
2007-03-26, 08:42 AM
In general, I consider it poor DMing to do anything to your PC's without giving them a choice and/or an opposed roll of some sort. Anytime you just announce that something happens your PC's will resent you and feel railroaded, but if you give them choice or the illusion of choice, they'll feel as if they are driving the story.

Consider Scenario A:

As you walk into the red door, you are surprised by an Invisible Duskblade. Bob, he attacks you, hits, and deals 105 damage using a channeled spell with no Save.

Or Scenario B:

Ok, which door do you open? The red one? Everyone make a Listen check. Sadly, you failed the check. You're ambushed by a Duskblade who was hidden in the room waiting for you. Bob, since you walked in the door first, he attacks you, and hits you with a channeled spell attack. Make a Fort Save. Oh, sorry Bob, but 24 isn't quite high enough. Unfortunately, you take 105 damage.


Now, assuming that you layered in more fluff to both examples, which one would be more fun for a PC? Even though the results can be rigged to be exactly the same, its important not to simply thwart players, but to make plot based directly off of their decisions and actions, not just your story ideas.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-26, 09:26 AM
Now, assuming that you layered in more fluff to both examples, which one would be more fun for a PC? Even though the results can be rigged to be exactly the same, its important not to simply thwart players, but to make plot based directly off of their decisions and actions, not just your story ideas.

We actually didn't get that far last night (we never get as far as I think we will), but what I'm worried about is that the shatter will do nothing because the shatter's save dc isn't very high.

It actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense that just because a pc happens to be wearing something it becomes shatter-resistant. But you're right, stuff that happens without a roll isn't very fair. I was just hoping there was the 1E version of item saving throws somewhere I hadn't seen.

Fixer
2007-03-26, 10:23 AM
My wife plays a warlock with Dark Speech so I had to make a few adjudications about shatter. The relevant one is as follows:

Area-of-Effect Shatter ONLY works on objects stated in the spell description (nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain each weighing less than 1 pound per level). Items affected may not be magical and attended objects each gain the saving throw of their possessor (Will negates).

You don't target parts of an item, you target the whole item. Unless the helmets are made entirely out of crystal, glass, ceramic or porcelain weighing less than 1 pound per caster level they won't be affected by a AoE Shatter.

Draak_Grafula
2007-03-26, 12:37 PM
The spell description says that it "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object", among its other effects. There was some discussion of this on the boards a while back, my reading is that it works like the sunder action, and so can target anything that a sunder can. Your interpretation may differ, and certainly the fluff of it is a little odd.

edit: It does specifically state, though, that you can target a single nonmagical object "regardless of composition".

Thanks for answering.
So since one can't sunder armor. Can players in your game not use sunder (the spell) to affect worn metal armor?

kamikasei
2007-03-26, 01:11 PM
Thanks for answering.
So since one can't sunder armor. Can players in your game not use sunder (the spell) to affect worn metal armor?

I might allow it, since the fact that you can't sunder armor as a combat action is probably because, well, how do you use your weapon to destroy the armor someone's wearing, but deal them no damage? Using shatter to do it makes more sense. It's a matter of heavy interpretation, though, which I've never had to rule on.