A silly way to make infinite amount of money at 7th level?

[Dr TPK]

Create a 7th-level wizard who speaks celestial or has the tongues spell.
Cast Summon Monster IV and summon a Lantern Archon.
Ask the Archon to create Everburning Torches for 7 rounds.
Sell them for half the price.
Earn 55 gp per casting.
It's not much per day, but enough?

[asnys]

Create a 7th-level wizard who speaks celestial or has the tongues spell.
Cast Summon Monster IV and summon a Lantern Archon.
Ask the Archon to create Everburning Torches for 7 rounds.
Sell them for half the price.
Earn 55 gp per casting.
It's not much per day, but enough?

The explanation of the Conjuration (Summoning) descriptor includes the line:


When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)

I've gotten in arguments before about whether "expire" applies to spells with a permanent duration, but if I were the DM I would rule this doesn't work.

[ranagrande]

Also, a level 7 Wizard could just sell that 4th level spell as per the Spellcasting and Services table in the PHB and get 280gp, or 140 if that also follows the rule on selling for half price.

[Flickerdart]

The explanation of the Conjuration (Summoning) descriptor includes the line:



I've gotten in arguments before about whether "expire" applies to spells with a permanent duration, but if I were the DM I would rule this doesn't work.
Given that Permanent isn't actually permanent in D&D, there's no argument that those spells stick around.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Given that Permanent isn't actually permanent in D&D, there's no argument that those spells stick around.

Absolutely, if it has a duration other than Instantaneous it can expire. Permanent should just be read as having a duration of infinity rounds if an effect dispels it or causes it to expire it's gone.

[asnys]

Given that Permanent isn't actually permanent in D&D, there's no argument that those spells stick around.


Absolutely, if it has a duration other than Instantaneous it can expire. Permanent should just be read as having a duration of infinity rounds if an effect dispels it or causes it to expire it's gone.

I enthusiastically agree! (The other side in this argument asserted that "expire" is not an explicitly-defined term in D&D, so who knows what it means. Or something like that, it's been a while and I may not be remembering correctly.)

[Flickerdart]

Absolutely, if it has a duration other than Instantaneous it can expire. Permanent should just be read as having a duration of infinity rounds if an effect dispels it or causes it to expire it's gone.
Really, a better name for Permanent would be Indefinite (since the duration probably will end, it just requires external intervention).

[atemu1234]

Profession. Any profession.

[Darrin]

At 7th level, wall of $alt is more efficient. That assumes there is any money left in the economy after you can cast water to acid at 5th.

A large influx of everburning torches may create a bigger problem: with a permanent worry-free way to illuminate fields and workshops, feudal lords may be inclined to "strongly encourage" (with stabbiness and death) their serfs to work around the clock to increase production. This might kick-start an industrial revolution, increased crop yields will drive up population and increase urban migration, labor starts to organize and distribution of land reaches a breaking point, proletariat gets all murderhappy on the aristocracy, that sort of thing.

[mabriss lethe]

At 7th level, wall of $alt is more efficient. That assumes there is any money left in the economy after you can cast water to acid at 5th.

A large influx of everburning torches may create a bigger problem: with a permanent worry-free way to illuminate fields and workshops, feudal lords may be inclined to "strongly encourage" (with stabbiness and death) their serfs to work around the clock to increase production. This might kick-start an industrial revolution, increased crop yields will drive up population and increase urban migration, labor starts to organize and distribution of land reaches a breaking point, proletariat gets all murderhappy on the aristocracy, that sort of thing.

A shadowcaster can pull this off at level 1, through judicious (ab)use of the Liquid Night fundamental. Liquid night is also an instantaneous effect.

[kaffalidjmah]

How you can obtain many money with wall of salt?

[Malroth]

In Dnd Salt is more valuable per weight than silver and is a trade good so it sells at full price.

[ThisIsZen]

Note that while economics tends to be the path of madness in D&D worlds, I would fully encourage any DM presented with a player manufacturing Walls of Salt for endless gp to absolutely ruin the price of salt. It's an exponential reaction with a downward curve trending towards infinity - when the player can sell an entire Wall for a single cp maybe they'll get the message that infinite money shenanigans aren't actually reasonable.

I mean, making a single Wall or even a few to pay for a neat thing? Sure. Abusing it indefinitely because the PHB prices are expected to be immutable is pushing it.

Essentially, any infinite money scheme should have diminishing returns, simply because money is by definition not infinite.

[Petrocorus]

Actually, does the Lantern Archon Continual Flame trick work if you use Planar Ally / Binding instead of SMIV?

[Flickerdart]

Actually, does the Lantern Archon Continual Flame trick work if you use Planar Ally / Binding instead of SMIV?
Yes. A Calling spell just moves a creature to you - it would be the same as if you cast Continual Flame yourself, and then plane shifted away. The reason a summon's cast spells vanish is that it didn't exist before you summoned it, and stops existing after the spell ends.

[(Un)Inspired]

Note that while economics tends to be the path of madness in D&D worlds, I would fully encourage any DM presented with a player manufacturing Walls of Salt for endless gp to absolutely ruin the price of salt. It's an exponential reaction with a downward curve trending towards infinity - when the player can sell an entire Wall for a single cp maybe they'll get the message that infinite money shenanigans aren't actually reasonable.

I mean, making a single Wall or even a few to pay for a neat thing? Sure. Abusing it indefinitely because the PHB prices are expected to be immutable is pushing it.

Essentially, any infinite money scheme should have diminishing returns, simply because money is by definition not infinite.

Punishing a party with economy lessons sounds boring.

I'd rather have the Salt Mining Guide put a hit out on them.

[Blackhawk748]

Punishing a party with economy lessons sounds boring.

I'd rather have the Salt Mining Guide put a hit out on them.

Nothing saying you cant have both. Honestly if i ever tried the Wall of Salt trick my DM would have multiple hits put out on me, because he is, as he calls it, a "Consequence-ist DM". Meaning: You do something stupid dont blame me if it bites you in the rear end. In this case trying to make infinite money.

[Flickerdart]

Why would there be a guild for unskilled labour? You could have a salt cartel, but not a guild.

Also, the thing to do with the salt isn't to ruin your entire economy just to spite your players. Instead, just revoke its trade good status and have the cruel law of demand rear its ugly head. Sure, you made a massive wall of salt, and yes, technically it's worth so and so silver. But if nobody needs salt right now - they stocked up real nice last time you cast the spell and sold it to them. Maybe the guys in the next town will want salt. Hey, if you pay us in silver, we'll even sell you a cart to lug it all. I hope bandits don't ambush you on the way.

[(Un)Inspired]

It's for artisanal salt; only a true master can mine it.

[Flickerdart]

It's for artisanal salt; only a true master can mine it.
I didn't know Greyhawk had hipsters. :smallamused:

[(Un)Inspired]

I didn't know Greyhawk had hipsters. :smallamused:

They're super underground.

[Flickerdart]

They're super underground.
Drow hipsters? Illithid hipsters?

Oh god. Aboleth hipsters. They were into everything back at the dawn of time, and won't let you live it down.

[Blackhawk748]

Also, the thing to do with the salt isn't to ruin your entire economy just to spite your players. Instead, just revoke its trade good status and have the cruel law of demand rear its ugly head. Sure, you made a massive wall of salt, and yes, technically it's worth so and so silver. But if nobody needs salt right now - they stocked up real nice last time you cast the spell and sold it to them. Maybe the guys in the next town will want salt. Hey, if you pay us in silver, we'll even sell you a cart to lug it all. I hope bandits don't ambush you on the way.

Wait we were ruining the entire economy? I thought we were just tanking the price of salt?

Anyway making a Salt Caravan could be fun and lead to many Salt related Adventures...... why do i want to make a Salt Merchant Sorcerer now?


Oh god. Aboleth hipsters. They were into everything back at the dawn of time, and won't let you live it down.

My DM is never allowed to see this sentence.

[Petrocorus]

Oh god. Aboleth hipsters. They were into everything back at the dawn of time, and won't let you live it down.

That's actually a very good concept for a BBEG.

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh god. Aboleth hipsters. They were into everything back at the dawn of time, and won't let you live it down.

Yes! I like this idea. They're probably the real power behind the Salt Mining Guilds!


EDIT: Anyone else think we getting into territory that could actually make for a fun campaign?

[Flickerdart]

Wait we were ruining the entire economy? I thought we were just tanking the price of salt?
Yeah, but as the whole "salt mining guild" thing shows, there are more people in the world who rely on the price of salt than the PCs. Entire trade routes might become untenable, leaving once prosperous towns devoid of any traffic (and thus income and sustenance).

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, but as the whole "salt mining guild" thing shows, there are more people in the world who rely on the price of salt than the PCs. Entire trade routes might become untenable, leaving once prosperous towns devoid of any traffic (and thus income and sustenance).

Thus why we can have Guild hits as well as the PCs not getting any money for salt, and also hopefully make them feel bad.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah, but as the whole "salt mining guild" thing shows, there are more people in the world who rely on the price of salt than the PCs. Entire trade routes might become untenable, leaving once prosperous towns devoid of any traffic (and thus income and sustenance).

Who's the real villain?

The salt mining guilds run by hipster aboleth overlords?

Or the Sorcerer salt merchant who puts thousands of hardworking commoners out of work?

[Blackhawk748]

Who's the real villain?

The salt mining guilds run by hipster aboleth overlords?

Or the Sorcerer salt merchant who puts thousands of hardworking commoners out of work?

Obviously the Aboleth as the Sorcerer is a PC :smallwink:


Yes! I like this idea. They're probably the real power behind the Salt Mining Guilds!


EDIT: Anyone else think we getting into territory that could actually make for a fun campaign?

Also i would totally play in this campaign.

[Flickerdart]

Obviously the Aboleth as the Sorcerer is a PC
What if the PC is an Aboleth Sorcerer who started this whole mess in the first place?

[Blackhawk748]

What if the PC is an Aboleth Sorcerer who started this whole mess in the first place?

Sshh........ CURSE YOU FLICKERDART AND YOUR ABILITY TO KNOW MY PLANS!!!!

Edit: I have the best plot. Now the Hipster Aboleth, we'll call him "Roy", and the PC Sorcerer Aboleth, we'll call him Ulthane, were actually college roommates back at the dawn of time. Now Ulthane stopped hanging out with "Roy" as he became annoying and would constantly borrow money from Ulthane and never pay him back. Cue current events: Ulthane just found out that "Roy" is selling "Hipster" Salt and is now employing his Wall of Salt scheme to destroy "Roy"s livelihood to get back at "Roy" for all the money he owes Ulthane.

Hell i could probably convince my DM to let me play said Sorcerer, i would just never do anything that an appropriately leveled sorcerer couldnt do. The reveal at the end would be priceless :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

What if the PC is an Aboleth Sorcerer who started this whole mess in the first place?

I think there's enough evidence that aboleths, sorcerous or not, have a very shaky grasp on economics. Case in point:

"You wanth my *whath*? Mucuth? Gurgh... uh, sthure... you can havth my mucuth for, uh... twenthy goldth?"