Help me out with Necromancy

[Eliana Solange]

I posted this in my other thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385243-Help-me-create-an-Evil-Cleric-L12 but actually this seems like more of a new topic, so I'm starting another thread for this. But for background, we're creating L12 evil characters for a short-term evil campaign. I'm looking at being primarily a battle cleric/Ordained Champion, but with side of necromancy ;-)

So... help me out with Necromancy. Here's what I think I understand so far.

In the (I suspect unlikely) event that we are fighting undead, I could use a rebuke attempt to rebuke and possibly control lower level undeads. But any undead that I might take control of in that manner would be pretty much toast if we came into contact with a cleric of our level, who could likely destroy them. Not that it hurts to have a little cannon fodder, but... that doesn't seem all that useful. And if I take levels in Divine Oracle (not sure if I will do so or not) my turning level will be lower than my CL, I believe, so that will further reduce the HD maximum of anything I could command in this way.

So more likely, if I want some undead minions that are going to be of real use to us, I'm going to have to animate them. So say we kill some appropriate CR level monster. We throw the corpse into a bag of holding and take it back to our temple/lair, save up corpses until we have 4xCL(11) HD worth of critters, desecrate a shrine and cast animate dead. This costs 25 gp for the desecration, and up to 44 x 25 gp for the animate for a total of 1125 gp. And now what exactly do we have? Do I decide if I want skeletons or zombies? Is this worthwhile "as is" or do I really need Awaken Undead to make them useful? (This would require me to take the Deathbound domain, which I'm not sure I have access to -- the Spell Compendium just says to use you discretion on which gods would grant access to those domains. Hextor isn't that into undead as far as I can tell, but he certainly has no problem using them to serve his needs.)

I did try reading the handbook here http://community.wizards.com/forum/p...hreads/1049211 but for someone who is totally new to necromancy, it's pretty overwhelming.

Thanks!

[OldTrees1]

In tactical combat(adventuring) I have found low HD skeletons "warriors" to be useful for the early career, then max HD skeletons "brutes" for the mid career, then max HD zombie "human shields" are the best Animate Dead gives late career. Of all the during animation buffs to undead, only the +4Str buff keeps them relevant longer since it is their offense that becomes obsolete.

In strategic combat(wars) I have found the Command Undead spell + the Chain Spell metamagic feat to be the basis for armies.

Out of combat Awaken can create utility undead, but sometimes you can get away with just using your intelligence and good instructions. Alternatively there is an undead (in Libris Mortis I think) that is a bunch of stitched together limbs created by Animate Dead. It comes intelligent at no further cost.

[Urpriest]

Unless you work to optimize it, Rebuke will be more for utility undead: an Incorporeal scout, perhaps, or something like a Slaymate or Ghostly Visage if you're lucky. Rather than waiting to run into undead in-game, ask your DM if you might have rebuked some during your backstory. You've had a pretty long career as a level 12 character, chances are you've encountered something useful. Similarly, ask about corpses you might have run into in the past. Your DM probably shouldn't just give you whatever you want (there are some pretty broken choices for corpses/rebuke targets), but you can work together to find options that are reasonably balanced and flavorful.

At level 12 I think there should still be things that a well-chosen high-HD skeleton can tear to bits. Zombies are pretty useless (though consider Zombie Dragons, using the special rules from Draconomicon). Awaken Undead is quite nice, but if you're going into undead as more of a sideline it's not necessary.

[Eliana Solange]

Thanks.

If I'm animating something and I have a full corpse (rather than just a skeleton) do I choose whether it gets animated as a skeleton or a zombie? And what are the trade offs?

[Urpriest]

Thanks.

If I'm animating something and I have a full corpse (rather than just a skeleton) do I choose whether it gets animated as a skeleton or a zombie? And what are the trade offs?

You choose, yeah. If you choose skeleton, the flesh falls off when you cast the spell.

Skeletons get full attacks, while Zombies are limited to a standard action every round, so Skeletons are usually better. Zombies do keep their wings, which is handy, and they're generally tougher than skeletons.

[OldTrees1]

Thanks.

If I'm animating something and I have a full corpse (rather than just a skeleton) do I choose whether it gets animated as a skeleton or a zombie? And what are the trade offs?

Unless the creature is a non dragon with 11+HD, you can choose(11-20HD non dragons can only be raised as skeletons).
Seconding the skeleton as a default.

[ace rooster]

Thanks.

If I'm animating something and I have a full corpse (rather than just a skeleton) do I choose whether it gets animated as a skeleton or a zombie? And what are the trade offs?

The largest difference is actually in the HD. A zombie gets 2 HD for each HD the target had, while a skeleton only gets one. For a cleric controlling them with rebuke this is generally a bad thing, as it means that they can control less zombies than skelies, with the extra HD being offset by the standard action only. This does not apply to wizards that control via command undead (not HD dependent), or if there is a very limited supply of corpses. In these cases zombification can be a much better choice, particularly for creatures with a single attack and a decent move speed anyway. Creatures with good natural armour are often better zombies too. A zombie dire wolf has an attack of +14, ac of 16, and 78hp, compared to a skelies attack +10, 13ac, and 39hp. The zombie can move faster than a character in full plate anyway, so the single action thing is not so bad for it.

Another consideration is that a skeletal kobold can load and fire a crossbow in a round, while the zombie cannot. Skeletal elves can move and fire bows, and the extra dex compensates for the lack of BAB. Even low HD undead can be useful as archers, Where their lack of survivability is less of a problem. Command them to follow the instructions of a intelligent underling (a wight for example) and they can be instructed to disrupt spellcasters (wight orders them to ready to fire when he says, and readies an action to command them to fire when somebody casts a spell), or form a decent independent hit squad, able to perform hit and run harassment to draw out defenders or force them to cast spells. Generally skeletons are better at this, as their extra mobility is a far better defense than the toughness zombies get.

One more consideration is transport. A single powerful zombie might be a better choice if you plan on teleporting and there is only space for one more. Hope this gives you something to think about.

[balegar]

Divine interdiction is a spell that can protect you from losing them to a cleric's turning. As a side note, I personally enjoyed playing a true necromancer from Libris Mortis. If I remember right they can create dead as a SLA.