Paladin fixes?

[Tanuki Tales]

For either Pathfinder or 3.5, what would you guys say are your favorite Paladin reworks/re-imaginings/fixes/etc?

[AuraTwilight]

T.G Oskar's "Project Heretica" is pretty much the best Paladin-related anything I've ever seen.

[nonsi]

If I were to take a Paladin fix (I wouldn't, but if), it would probably be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267157-Paladin-Revised-(3-5-Paladin-fix)-(PEACH)).

[BWR]

I am quite pleased with the PF paladin and haven't seen any homebrew fixes that do it any better.

[Seharvepernfan]

If I were to take a Paladin fix (I wouldn't, but if), it would probably be this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267157-Paladin-Revised-(3-5-Paladin-fix)-(PEACH)).

Saved.

By far the best I have ever seen. My only nitpick is that the mount's speed bonuses are too high. Shoulda just been +10/+20/+30 IMO.

[nonsi]

Saved.

By far the best I have ever seen. My only nitpick is that the mount's speed bonuses are too high. Shoulda just been +10/+20/+30 IMO.

Not a nitpick at all.
I second that motion.
+10/+20/+30/+40 could also be reasonable, but definitely not the proposed +30 increments.

[Seharvepernfan]

Not a nitpick at all.
I second that motion.
+10/+20/+30/+40 could also be reasonable, but definitely not the proposed +30 increments.

Whoops, I thought there were only three increases. I agree with the +10/+20/+30/+40.

[toapat]

I am quite pleased with the PF paladin and haven't seen any homebrew fixes that do it any better.

have you ever looked at what the 3.5 paladin does with non-core books? the PF paladin is basically a whole step backwards besides what they did with LoH. Id rather hack the 5th Ed paladin back into 3rd then be forced to lose every competency that 3.5 gave paladins.

[Ryunosuke]

I just read through the linked Paladin fix and I'm not gonna lie, that one seems rather insanely overpowered compared to a standard Paladin or any core class overall, especially considering 99% of all enemies will qualify for that ridiculously powerful smite evil buff. It certainly makes a Barbarian's rage look weak by far as well as adding in an extra spell level (there are some decent paladin spells at level 3 or 4 like Find the Gap or Draconic Might for combat buffs). Now they did drop Divine Grace (which made core paladins the saving throw gods (better than monks even after +6 charisma which isn't hard to do), but their mount became much faster and there are a good deal more power boosts and I feel like that puts them above nearly any other melee fighter, even some Martial Adepts in terms of sheer damage and utility with the divine magic they gain.

For things to imoprove a Paladin, I am fond of these Smite Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?229655-Smite-Feats) (one of them makes the smite evil similar to the buff of the above class but gained at a reasonable rate with a feat required to do so at least)

Also, what's the PF Paladin? I'm not really familiar with that particular acronym.

[Seharvepernfan]

Divine Grace was still there on the table.

If, like me, you ignore a lot of splat material as unbalanced garbage, the class is about where it should be. Yeah, the smite is very powerful, but then I'm okay with that; paladins are supposed to be the best slayers of evil. With this, you can actually play a sword'n'board paladin, even using improved shield bash and TWF, and still be capable. Yes, a two-hander is even better this way, but can't two-handers basically kill anything in one hit anyway? The problem there isn't with the paladin.

I definitely support the addition of 5th level spells; paladins really needed that (when core, anyway).

If you're gonna allow warblades and dragonfire adepts and all that stuff, you ought to allow this.

[Ryunosuke]

Divine Grace was still there on the table.

If, like me, you ignore a lot of splat material as unbalanced garbage, the class is about where it should be. Yeah, the smite is very powerful, but then I'm okay with that; paladins are supposed to be the best slayers of evil. With this, you can actually play a sword'n'board paladin, even using improved shield bash and TWF, and still be capable. Yes, a two-hander is even better this way, but can't two-handers basically kill anything in one hit anyway? The problem there isn't with the paladin.

I definitely support the addition of 5th level spells; paladins really needed that (when core, anyway).

If you're gonna allow warblades and dragonfire adepts and all that stuff, you ought to allow this.

Didn't notice that actually but yea, it's still there, though I do like the fact that they doubled Lay on Hands to compare to Dragon Shamans, another conflicted opinion class (that doesn't really have any justification for healing whatsoever but meh)

As for the shield bashing for tanky dps-er, I never liked that option since you have to drop so many feats into it (TWF, Improved Bash, and Oversized TWF since the shield is treated as a one handed weapon) just to get a single extra attack since TWF needs you to drop a feat for every attack you gain to add that to the off hand (pointed out in the TWF homebrew thread somewhere near this one actually), though it does give some non-optimizational flavor or some more interesting NPC options at least.

Actually, I just realized that their spellcasting is now Charisma based in the fix as well, which nearly destroys and MAD issues they had regarding the Wisdom and Strength stats now (still useful but far from necessary anymore), but I guess that being good or bad depends more so on what the rest of the party is running and such by comparison. For example, my current party is rather new and using weaker tier classes (core fighter, cleric and paladin) so I've no reason to let the Paladin use that version to become crazy powerful by comparison since it wouldn't be particularly fair, but in a game with better and more seasoned players using stronger classes, I'd see much less problem using that particular fix, allowing the party to fight stronger, or even longer per day/session of adventuring.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

My favorite Paladin fix is Fifth Edition Paladin.

:smalltongue:

I also like Pathfinder's Paladin, but I don't like Pathfinder, so grain of salt.

[Alabenson]

Saved.

By far the best I have ever seen. My only nitpick is that the mount's speed bonuses are too high. Shoulda just been +10/+20/+30 IMO.

First of all, I'm happy to hear you like my Paladin fix. :smallbiggrin:

Secondly, to address your concerns over the mount's speed bonuses, while I can see how they might seem overly high, I should point out I balanced the mount's bonuses against the spell phantom steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), which has a speed of 20 feet per caster level.


Didn't notice that actually but yea, it's still there, though I do like the fact that they doubled Lay on Hands to compare to Dragon Shamans, another conflicted opinion class (that doesn't really have any justification for healing whatsoever but meh)

As for the shield bashing for tanky dps-er, I never liked that option since you have to drop so many feats into it (TWF, Improved Bash, and Oversized TWF since the shield is treated as a one handed weapon) just to get a single extra attack since TWF needs you to drop a feat for every attack you gain to add that to the off hand (pointed out in the TWF homebrew thread somewhere near this one actually), though it does give some non-optimizational flavor or some more interesting NPC options at least.

Actually, I just realized that their spellcasting is now Charisma based in the fix as well, which nearly destroys and MAD issues they had regarding the Wisdom and Strength stats now (still useful but far from necessary anymore), but I guess that being good or bad depends more so on what the rest of the party is running and such by comparison. For example, my current party is rather new and using weaker tier classes (core fighter, cleric and paladin) so I've no reason to let the Paladin use that version to become crazy powerful by comparison since it wouldn't be particularly fair, but in a game with better and more seasoned players using stronger classes, I'd see much less problem using that particular fix, allowing the party to fight stronger, or even longer per day/session of adventuring.

When I designed the fix in question, the balance point I used was the Tier-3 melee classes, in particular the capabilities of the ToB classes. As such, the revised Paladin should appear to be overpowered when compared against the core melee options, as the general consensus is that those options are distressingly underpowered.

That said, if the other members of the group are a core-only fighter and what I'm presuming is a healbot cleric, then I can certainly understand that my fix would be overkill.

[toapat]

My favorite Paladin fix is Fifth Edition Paladin.

which i felt was kinda cheating to mention because the thread is about 4rd.

although really 5th is just a cleaned up and sober 3rd.